The Catholic Answers apologists—Jimmy Akin, Tim Staples, Trent Horn, Joe Heschmeyer, and Karlo Broussard—sit down with Cy Kellett and Chris Check to share their final reflections and prayers for Pope Francis. A heartfelt tribute to a life of service to the Church.
Transcript:
Cy: And so Laura did not get to hug him, or she did get to hug him?
Trent: Oh, no, she went. No, she went right in.
Karlo: That is a good. That I think people need to know about, to think about, to pray about.
Tim: There seems to have just been a turn in the church in a glorious way toward mercy, and Pope Francis embodies that.
Cy: Within the next three weeks, we will have another pope.
Joe: One of the great stories of the Resurrection is that death doesn’t get to have the final word.
Cy: First, to help us reflect on the events of today and on the person of the Holy Father, who we have just lost, is Trent Horn. We all enjoyed your *Council of Trent*. You posted a video today. Do you ever sleep? Are you just always awake? It was before I got up this morning. You had already posted something, I think.
Trent: Yes, it did get up pretty early. We got pretty early notice about what happened with Pope Francis. And I did feel that it is important to be able to have something to be able to share and just even something brief. I think it’s less than three minutes, what I posted. I mean, it’s so interesting, right? I mean, I remember just a few months ago, people were saying, three days left. Three days left for Pope Francis’ pontificate. I’m thinking my wife is a registered nurse saying that’s not exactly how the end of life works. Yeah, right. You can’t really predict it, like the weather like that, but so, I mean, you could tell with his deteriorating health conditions that this is the twilight of life. This is the sun is now setting. And the question is, how long? Right. This hearkens back for me to the passing of Pope St. John Paul II and I. I came into the church in 2002. So if everyone kind of has, like, their pope, you know, a pope that they sort of, you know, grew up with, things like that. And Pope Benedict was really like kind of my formative pope.
Cy: Mine was Gregory the Great. Those are my early years. Was Gregory the Great. Yeah.
Caller: He was a good.
Cy: We loved him. We loved him in those days.
Trent: But the transition from Greek into Latin was a monumental thing. So, yeah, I. It was really, you know, it’s something you prepare yourself for. You’re like, oh, this is probably. And you tell yourself. But like any parting, departing of a family member, there’s always that sadness, though it is quite providential. I don’t know. I mean, there’s providence. There may also be just sheer determination and will on the part of the Pope to make it to Easter.
Cy: And I think that that was interesting. I hadn’t thought about that, Trent, you’re the first person I. Yeah. That there was a certain way. Sometimes people do that, hold out for something.
Trent: Yeah, you hold out for something very important that he just wanted to get through. I mean, it’s providence. There’s. Obviously, the Lord determines when it’s our time, but part of that is we can, you know, through our will, extend or shorten life, depending on how we face death. And I think it’s quite plausible that Pope Francis really wanted to finish out this Lenten season and not to depart during Lent, but he departed with the joy of Easter. When we say in Paul’s letter to the Corinthians, O death, where is thy sting? I mean, it’s still sad, but there’s a bittersweetness to it that when we pass from this life and we face that with hope is really just a sign and conviction of us living as resurrection people. And I believe that’s what Pope Francis would want us to do when faced with death and going to the next life.
Cy: You shared a lovely story about you and Laura.
Trent: Yes.
Cy: Meeting with Pope Francis. Will you tell us a little bit about your encounter with Pope Francis?
Trent: Yes. So I got married. Laura and I got married back in 2013. And that was just a few months. I got hired at Catholic Answers in December of 2012. And then I remember being in the Catholic Answers office. We projected it on the wall of the library. We projected, you know, the news coverage of the Conclave. And so I was, you know, there, and Laura and I were still long distance. She was finishing up school in New Mexico. And then eventually, you know, we got married in May, and this was just a few months after the Pope had passed. And we managed to get tickets. Oh, actually, this is funny. I didn’t mention this in my episode. So we had Sposi Novelli tickets. Sposi Novelli is a ceremony long tradition with the, at least the modern Popes, where the Pope at his Wednesday audience will greet couples who had been married within the past few, like, two or three months, if they’re there in their wedding attire, and he’ll give them a special blessing. So I planned our honeymoon, like, months in advance and months. Months in advance. I acquired Sposi Novelli tickets. You go through the Pontifical Academy or Pontifical College, I think, or whatever it is to get them. And then the Pope passed. So Pope Benedict, or sorry, had resigned. Obviously, he passed later. He resigned. But I remember acquiring them, and then it was like, oh, okay, so now what? And now everybody wanted to get there, and it was very hard for people to get tickets, but I had gotten them long before, actually. And so we were there. The Pope comes out and he goes. And he. And I thought maybe he just waved to us as a group and that would be it. Maybe reach over the barricade and try to shake hands. But he went down the line. We all got in a line in front of St. Peter’s Basilica, and he greeted every single couple individually.
Cy: Yeah. From all around the world, these couples.
Trent: Yeah, yeah. And so he greeted. And I did not think that was going to happen. And they just put us in line. They go, you. I love just the. The security guards that you. Yeah, you go there, you meet Pope.
Cy: Oh, they have Russian accents? Are they, like, Italian? Right?
Trent: It felt more like caveman. You’ll meet Popia. No, I guess I can only do my Italian guard when I’m talking about the Sistine Chapel. When you take a picture, they go, silencio. No photos, no videos. You meet Pope, you go, here. So we go. And then he comes up to us, and we had a gift for him. We had a papal zucchetto from his tailor Gammarelli, which is on the other side of the Pantheon. And people do this from time to time. They can still switch with you. You give him a zucchetto, a new one, he’ll give you his old one. And he played a joke. He took Laura’s bridal tiara, and he said, how about I take these instead? And we just laughed. And I said, you’re the Pope. You can have whatever you want. And then Laura laughed, and then she went in for a hug. And then, like, the papal security starts to, like, rush a little bit in. Like, do not touch the Pope. No touching the Pope.
No hugging the Pope. No hugging the Pope. No photo, no video, no huggo. I don’t know if hago is Hugo.
Cy: That’s Italian.
Trent: Yes, I’m sure it’s gotta be. But I could just tell there he was. It was my first time really seeing his humor, his humility, and his heart. And so I think that his pontificate can really be summarized in those words. I think when he had. Correct me if I’m wrong, I believe that when he had dinner with the cardinals after the election, I think he raised a toast and said something like, may God have mercy on all of us.
Cy: Forgive you for what you’ve done.
Trent: So. Yeah. But especially his heart. I would encourage anyone who wants to understand Pope Francis to read the last encyclical he wrote before passing, his encyclical on the Sacred Heart of Jesus, *Dilexit Nos*. To really see deep theology that is not just a bunch of academic frou frou. It’s deep, it’s academic and intelligent, but it also really gets to the heart of the human condition. But yeah, it was just great to see that really human and pastoral side of him that will really come to define his pontificate.
Cy: And so Laura did not get to hug him or she did get to hug him.
Trent: Oh, no. She went. No, she went.
Caller: Right, full hug. Oh, yeah, full hug.
Trent: And then released before. Like, I could tell that the security was a little in disarray, that most people don’t do that. But my wife is an extroverted, energetic person. And I’m glad some people have been able to see that. And then even the Pope. Even the Pope got to see that. So, yeah, it was a neat time. It was the only time I’ve ever interacted with a Pope who knows that’ll change in the future or not. But as I said, whenever you. It’s easy when you’re on social media, when you’re on the Internet, to get an idea of a person, but it always is really different when you can come face to face with an individual, to see them in their full humanity.
Cy: Let me just ask you one final question before I let you go. You said in that piece that you did this morning that you felt he led with his heart, I think was the phrase that you used.
Caller: Yeah.
Cy: Tell me a little bit about what that means.
Trent: Well, what I would say with that is, I mean, his previous predecessors, for many, many of us who understand what it means to be Pope based on our personal experiences of watching a Pope, especially because John Paul II’s pontificate was so long for most people. Their reference point is Pope St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict. And John Paul II was a professional philosopher. Pope Benedict was a biblical theologian. And I hate the idea of thinking, oh, they were head. And Francis was heart. No, both of them, all three of them are intelligent and full of heart and an affectation for the genuine affectation for the Lord and for the faith. But I think that John Paul II and Benedict would often lead. You could tell in their writings. They had a very systematic approach, even in their public comments, a kind of a systematic approach of putting everything together but university level, almost of putting forward the thesis and going in that way. But I think when Pope Francis would speak oftentimes off the cuff or even in his, even in his writings and his interactions, moving with just, you know, going with your gut, where, where is my heart leading me in this? And led him, you know, to all of those interactions that we’ve seen with the poor, with the disabled, with outcasts. When people come to him, I remember the boy who’s wondering if his atheist father is in heaven, right? You could see just that genuine leading with the heart that he knows, the heart of Christ. He wants to share that with others and for better or for worse. So for better, I think it shows a lot of authenticity. It shows just a raw goodness of the Gospel for people to see. But then sometimes that could lead to articulations, phrases and ways of putting things that may not have been the most prudent in some cases or may have caused some confusion. But you know, that’s always a trade off. You know, you’ve got people who will qualify everything, so there’s no misunderstandings at all. And it can seem a little antiseptic, that approach. And then you’ve got people that just will tell it like it is and you just really feel that emotion, you feel that connection with that person and then maybe they have to qualify a few things later. But overall, I believe Pope Francis was a tremendous blessing to the Church in showing us especially humility, understanding, concerns about things like clericalism, pushing for important values our world forgets, especially for things like peace and solidarity. So I think we were truly blessed and now I’m just trusting in the Holy Spirit to lead the Church. So we should pray for the repose of Pope Francis and we should pray for the Holy Spirit to guide the College of Cardinals. It’s not like the Holy Spirit just zaps him and you know, they wake up one day like, who’d we vote for? Like they can use their God-given talents, abilities and intellects to discern a proper choice and the Holy Spirit. I love that Pope Benedict said the Holy Spirit doesn’t necessarily guide them to pick the best pope. He’ll just prevent them from picking a pope that will, you know, ruin heresy or something like that. Right? Because Benedict will say he’ll ruin the whole thing. Because Benedict says you can’t say the Holy Spirit guides the cardinals to always pick the best one. Because there have been some real stinkers in church history. But we can pray for the cardinals because they could pick a pope, the Holy Spirit will prevent them from picking a pope who will formally bind the Church to heresy or something like that. It doesn’t mean he’s going to be great at the job. So we should just pray for them to be open to where the Spirit is leading them and to follow that and to use prudence and right judgment as they discern who will be the next head of the Church.
Cy: Trent Horn from Counsel of Trent. Thanks so much. I appreciate you sharing your reminiscences with us.
Trent: Thank you for having me.
Cy: Tim Staples is here to talk with us about Pope Francis. First of all, Trent said something I hadn’t thought of, which is sometimes people who are very close to death will just hold out for something. And maybe there was a certain sense in which he was holding out for Easter. He didn’t want to miss Easter.
Tim: Yeah, no doubt. He is a Pope of mercy, as was Pope St. John Paul the Great. And as Providence would have it, of course, John Paul died not just in the octave, but Divine Mercy Sunday. And now, you know, it couldn’t have happened at a more fitting time, because I think for me, Pope Francis, as you know, I love his magisterial writings. I say that all the time. But I tell you, I just read *Dignitas Infinita* for the fifth time just today. And of course, that’s Archbishop Fernández, with the approval of the Pope. But I love his magisterial teachings, and he really is the Pope of Mercy for me. He had a profound impact on me. And I will never forget, you know, some of the pithy sayings of his. You know, the priests need to smell like the sheep.
Cy: Yeah, right, right.
Tim: When you go out into combat, you’re not checking cholesterol and blood pressure, you’re fixing arteries. Now, I’m extrapolating a little bit on that. But, you know, his message of evangelism, getting outside of the pews and getting into the world and changing the world and such, had a profound impact on me. And of course, his emphasis on mercy, that really goes right in line with all of the post-conciliar popes and, of course, 2,000 years of Christian tradition, but in a particular way, you know, with Pope St. John Paul the Great and Faustina and Divine Mercy Sunday, there seems to have just been a turn in the Church in a glorious way toward mercy. And Pope Francis embodies that sigh in reaching out to the margins.
Cy: That’s what I wanted to ask you if you would. Well, first of all, let me just go back, because I think people have forgotten the Jubilee of Mercy. This is his second jubilee of his papacy. And that was a wonderful year, that Jubilee of Mercy.
Tim: It was. And you and I have talked about it, Cy. The thing that is lacking the most in our culture today here in the United States, but it’s around the world, is that one word. It’s mercy.
Cy: No, I know it’s brutal, especially with social media and all that.
Tim: It’s brutal. My goodness, the lack of mercy. And, you know, in particular, you know, reaching out to those who like Jesus. I always think of Luke 15, because, of course, this follows Luke 7, where Jesus reaches out, but of course, the sinful woman reaches out to him first, comes into the Pharisee’s house where Jesus is, begins kissing his feet, wiping her hair with the oil that she put on his feet. And of course, the response of the religious folks, the Pharisees, was, what if he knew what manner of woman this is? And Jesus had quite a little lengthy discourse for those Pharisees on the nature of, you know, the creditors and such. But, you know, Jesus reached out and that woman continued, and she was a prostitute, but she was kissing his feet and such. And he says, you know, Simon, you haven’t reached out to me at all since I’ve been. She has not. She was still kissing his feet while they were talking. But that raised the ire because these are people like tax collectors and prostitutes. These are the ones you’re supposed to hate. You’re supposed to get them out of here. They are not to be in a place like this. And Jesus, to say he upset the apple cart is an understatement. And that’s why I say, Cy, it leads to Luke, chapter 15, the first couple of verses, where Jesus is out teaching, and it says, and the sinners, the prostitutes, the sinners were being drawn to him. And of course, once again, the Pharisees are angry, and the priests, because the sinner. How can this man draw? Look at this. And that was the impetus for him to present, you know, the parable of the lost sheep, the parable of the lost coin, and the prodigal son. So in those moments where folks get angry at Jesus for reaching out to the margins is when he has not stern words, they’re loving words, but stern teaching that this is what we’re about here, it’s called mercy. And I think Pope Francis personifies that. And even though, like Jesus, he emphasizes that, of course, any sexual act outside of marriage is a sin. And Pope Francis emphasized that so beautifully and so powerfully in so many ways. *Amoris Laetitia*, you know, section 68 through 82, in particular, section 68 and 80 through 82. But that whole section there, he emphasized it. But what I love about Pope Francis, and he has forever impacted my soul, is he presents the love of a father because, see, a father. And I know in my own family, when you have. And we have in our family, my wife and I, folks that are Catholics falling away, living the homosexual lifestyle, and you know what? We’ve engaged. I’ve engaged with one of them in particular, and let him know what our stand is. But you know what? You don’t do that all the time.
Cy: That’s right.
Tim: You know that’s right.
Cy: It would be inhuman to do that all the time.
Tim: It is. And, man, now when I see him, it’s always, give him a hug, say, how you doing, brother? Let him know that he’s welcome. And I think that’s what I get from Pope Francis. Yes. He lets you know that this is a sin. And with transgender and such, he’s prophetic in that regard, because, yes, he says it as plain as day. Any sexual activity outside of marriage is a sin. Transgender is demonic. But Pope Francis, when he encounters the individual transgender folks at the Vatican, he reaches out with love. It’s not like they’re brain dead and they don’t know what Pope Francis’ position is and what the Catholic Church is teaching, but you don’t have to put it in people’s face all the time. He really expressed to me the love of a father and, like the love Val and I have for our family members. We love them and we want them. Even though you set up parameters, man, you just love them because you want them to be healed and forgiven.
Cy: Yeah. This you said to me one day, and I had not thought of it, and I won’t be able to say it the way you said it, but you can fill it in. But there is something about Pope Francis that recognizes that, look, this is a wave of the transgender thing, a wave of the sexual confusion, and that people are going to be wounded by that. And so Francis’ thing is, the church has to be a place that can kind of like shepherd these people back to wholeness, to health. And that, I think, is what you mean sometimes when you use the word prophetic in the sense that, look, maybe for the world 20 years ago, the church could be one way, but for the world 20 years from now, it needs to be ready to be almost like a hospital to welcome people in.
Tim: Absolutely, brother. The church absolutely has to change. Not in her essential doctrine. But in her social doctrine, the way she, you know, we call it social doctrine, the way she, practically speaking, reaches out to people today, that’s going to change. You can’t act the same way if you’re under the Nazi regime in Germany that you do if you’re in the United States in the 20th century. Right. You can’t act the same way. But again, what I love about Pope Francis, I miss him already. I love that man. But what I saw in him was a heart the size of Texas. He was fearless, and he really didn’t care what people thought. He knew he was going to get slammed, just like Jesus knew when he was reaching out in love to those prostitutes and tax collectors. Do you think Jesus was surprised that he got slammed?
Cy: Of course not, no.
Tim: But he loves. And that’s what I will always remember of Pope Francis. He loved people. He loved. You saw the thing with Rick Santorum, the senator from Pennsylvania, who’s a friend of mine. I’ve known him for quite a while, but met him, had dinner with him. That was a long time ago. But, you know, he has a child that’s severely. It’s trisomy 18, I think is what they call it. But he’s severely challenged. And when Pope Francis met him at the Vatican, and this was like, I think it was about 10 years ago, but he picked him up, he said, can I? You know, he thought it wasn’t actually Rick, it was his wife that went with their son to the Vatican. But Rick was relaying the story. He said when Pope Francis saw that child, he just immediately said, may I? May I? They thought his wife Karen thought he was just going to be a minute, you know, just a blessing, and we go. And he ended up picking him up and hopping, hugging him and smiling and just loving on him. That is the heart of Pope Francis.
Cy: Maybe what’s come to your mind or what have you thought about with the passing of the Holy Father?
Karlo: Yeah. So a few thoughts came to mind. And I was thinking about, you know, what I would share with people in conversation if the topic was ever brought up. And one thought that comes to mind is the importance to focus on the good while at the same time acknowledging legitimate sources of frustration, perhaps for individuals during Pope Francis’ pontificate. And whenever I say that, what I mean is that to the question, were there certain decisions that were made that give legitimate cause of concern and frustration for Catholics? The answer is yes. But at the same time, we cannot let those sources of frustration and legitimate frustration cloud and override the good that Francis did establish or achieve within his pontificate. And there are many goods that we could focus on. But one good that struck me was, you know, he’s labeled as the Pope of Mercy. And a few items that came to mind was, for example, whenever he made it such that those who commit abortion, women who commit abortion, are able to simply go and confess that sin in the Sacrament of Reconciliation without having to appeal to the bishop in order to have the excommunication lifted. But that the priest is able, he has the faculty to absolve that particular sin, lift the excommunication within the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Brother, that is an act of mercy from our Holy Father. Man. That was an amazing act of mercy, and that is a good that I think people need to know about, to think about, to pray about, and to rejoice in.
And then another item that came to mind with regard to mercy was Pope Francis giving faculties to the priests of the Society of St. Pius X in order to administer the Sacrament of Confession, the Sacrament of Mercy, thereby manifesting his desire for mercy, conforming and manifesting. Conforming first and manifesting his heart and mind to the heart and mind of Christ, who is one who is always willing to extend that mercy for those who are willing to receive it.
And then, you know, the last thought that came to mind was the fact that Pope Francis died within the octave of Easter, which is focused on spiritually, on mercy, because on Divine Mercy Sunday, next Sunday, we’re going to have the Mercy Sunday readings of our Lord giving the apostles, instituting the Sacrament of Reconciliation and giving them the power to administer the forgiveness of sins. And how Pope Francis is dying within that octave of Easter, where there is a manifestation of mercy, because in the resurrection side, we see the mercy of our blessed Lord, because through his resurrection, speaking of causal activity, his resurrection is the cause of our resurrection at the end of time. And that, my friend, is an act of mercy. Because that gift of our bodily resurrection at the end of time is not due to us. That God wills to bring that about through the resurrection of Jesus is a gift, and it’s a pure manifestation of mercy. So the resurrection season is a season to focus our hearts and our minds on the mercy of God. And Pope Francis dying within that season is fitting, given his emphasis on mercy. And I might add that he is dying at a time in connection with Pope St. John Paul II, right, and Mother Angelica, who died on Easter Sunday. And so it’s very fitting that the Pope of Mercy would be dying within a season that’s focused on mercy. So those were a few thoughts that came to mind to where there are some goods in his pontificate that we would do well to focus our hearts and our minds on and to think about what the Father, how does the God the Father see Pope Francis, right as he stood before that judgment seat of Christ in his passing, how did God the Father see him? And I think that’s a question I asked myself in my own prayer life. Father, how did you see Pope Francis? And if in any way, shape or form, Father, you can help me see Pope Francis as you saw him, please grant that request unto me so that I can have a sense of affection for him, especially now in the afterlife, to where I pray for the repose of his soul, but also asking for his intercession and his help for the Church here on Earth, for me personally, and for us apologists at Catholic Answers for the apostolate and for the Church here on earth. So those are just a few movements of my heart and my mind as I was thinking through this stuff and praying over it.
Cy: I’m so glad I got to talk with you about it, Karlo. Beautiful. Thank you very much.
Where I go on the Internet, in the high-class parts of the Internet, people say things like, this next pope will be the last pope or there’s only two more popes to go, or they have, you know, Nostradamus and Malachi and various pope things. So help me out with that. I know you did an episode on the prophecies of. Is it Saint Malachy there?
Jimmy: I haven’t done an episode on the prophecy of Saint Malachy or the prophecy of the popes yet. I. That is now on my schedule. I’m going to be doing that soon.
Cy: Oh, okay.
Jimmy: I have done a study of the prophecy of the popes or the prophecy of Saint Malachy, which is published on my website, jimmyakin.com.
Cy: Oh yeah, I did see that fill.
Jimmy: Nostradamus doesn’t really have anything to say about the number of popes in the future. There’s also, in addition to the prophecy of the popes of Saint Malachy, there’s also a legend that the world will end when the number of portraits of the popes.
Cy: Oh yeah, I did see that.
Jimmy: Up the space in St. Paul Outside the Walls, which is one of the four major basilicas in Rome. Right. So in terms of that, and I’ll deal with that just briefly. There are a number of spaces left. I’ve seen it reported that there are six or 10, but it’s not imminent.
Cy: Okay.
Jimmy: But I also think that prophecy is just superstition. The idea that the number of popes would be connected with portraits of them in a church that wasn’t built for centuries and that isn’t even devoted to St. Peter, but St. Paul. It’s just superstition.
Cy: Yeah, okay.
Jimmy: And so I don’t think there’s any credibility to that. The Saint Malachy’s prophecy of the popes is a little bit different. It is claimed to have been written by a medieval bishop from Ireland who reportedly went to Rome and had a vision of future popes. And he then wrote down a list of 112 cryptic phrases that allegedly described the popes. Now, there are problems with this. One of the problems is we have no record of this. Saint Malachy was a real person in Ireland, but we have no record of this prophecy. The popes, for hundreds of years after his life, none of Saint Malachy’s biographers mention it. It just comes out of nowhere in the 1590s. And if you look at the popes before the 1590s, because the author links them to popes, the author who published it linked them with popes down to that time, the names fit really well. It’s really clear how these phrases fit the popes that had appeared up to that time. And then when you look at the popes after that time, the fit drops off dramatically, and it’s much harder to link the phrases with the popes. There’s a very clear difference here. This is what I did in my study of the prophecy of the popes was I went through the list both before and after the 1590s and classified the phrases as either hits, misses, or ambiguous as to whether it was a hit or a miss. And in the period before the 1590s, the hits are unmistakable. The very high percentage of hits in the period after the 1590s, the hits drop off a cliff.
Cy: Okay
Jimmy: And so what this suggests is that the prophecy of the pope was written in the 1590s. And it’s been proposed that it may have been written to try to influence a particular conclave in the 1590s, but not make it obvious that that’s what they were trying to do. In any event, I will be having an upcoming episode of *Mysterious World* on the prophecy of the popes. And until then, people can just search Jimmy Akin, prophecy of Saint Malachy, M A L A C H Y. And it’ll come up at jimmyakin.com.
Cy: All right, Jimmy, well, thank you for taking the time with us. I know that you’ve made special time to come on and walk us through these things. I appreciate it. We will see you later in the week.
How do we both celebrate the octave of Easter this time of heightened joy and have nine days of mourning for a Pope who just passed? Does either one of you want to tackle that?
Joe: I had a very good Easter vigil homily from our pastor, and it was. It started off in a way where I was not sure where he was going with it. And he pointed out that in none of the Gospel accounts are we told that Jesus raised himself from the dead. We’re instead told in the passive voice, Jesus was raised from the dead. And I’ve actually heard people make this point before, but often in a way of like, trying to downplay Jesus’s divinity or something. And Father Mattingly went in a completely opposite direction, and he said, this shows us the power of the Father’s love for the Son and the Son’s trust in the Father, that this is the bond that overcame death. And once you accept that, then you can understand how Jesus is the first fruits. Because the Father loves the Son in this unique way, of course, but he loves all of us. And we are all called to share in this trust and reliance upon him. And so we can imitate Christ and so overcome the grave. And so there is this message of profound hope, not just that Jesus had overcome the grave, but that all of us are meant to overcome the grave as well. And so I think understood in that light, and I’ve really been chewing on that since then. Pope Francis’ death is a good reminder that we need to be attuned to that, because death is going to come for all of us. And one of the great stories of the Resurrection is that death doesn’t get to have the final word.
Chris: Yeah, death now is something that we look forward to, which is a new thing since the Resurrection. Over the weekend on Holy Saturday, I read an essay that my brother sent me that I had never read by Benedict XVI on Holy Saturday. It’s a meditation on Holy Saturday and the mystery of it and the mystery of what descended into hell means. I recommend it, my friends. You can find it at the Catholic Thing. It resonates very much with what I read on Easter Sunday, which is the chapter in Romano Guardini’s *The Lord*. And that makes sense. Benedict was a disciple of Guardini’s, and Guardini makes this very point that Joe has made here as well, prior to the resurrection. And this is obvious because even the apostles are not. This isn’t in the Jewish tradition. It’s not in the. I mean, there’s a conversation about resurrection of the dead, but not like what happens here. And they’re still not certain that they have a handle on the Jews. What this exactly means anyway. And it’s not like Socrates Guardini says saying before he dies to his followers. I go on to something better. No one has any real idea in the ancient world. People are looking at death as an end and what’s coming after, probably less promising than what, if anything, than what they’re currently experiencing, the resurrection. As St. Paul says, if that really didn’t happen, the rest of it’s in vain. The Resurrection changes all of that. It completely changes all of that. So now our death is the thing that we most look forward to, or as Christians should most look forward to. And I think that’s the context, of course, that we should be considering most the death of the Holy Father.
Cy: Probably we have a fear of loss, that we sometimes dwell more on that than on the joyful anticipation. But Pope Francis, you know, it’s so funny. His last words are pretty much what you’d want your last words to be.
about death. You know, his last public words, words on Easter, talking about the resurrection is the basis for everything. Christ risen is the basis for all of our hope, for everything that we have as Christians.
Chris: Go ahead.
Joe: Well, I was just going to say with both Pope Benedict and now with Pope Francis, you have at the evening of their life, at the twilight of their earthly life, these simple kind of proclamations of just love of Jesus and faithfulness to the resurrection. And there is something very profound about that, I think. Look, there’s a vastness to Catholicism where it has something to say about the nature of reality, all the big and the small things. And this is both incredibly comforting and intellectually appealing, but it’s also, at times, it can feel overwhelming and mystifying and even impersonal. I think for people who are maybe approaching from the outside, where, you know, it is so much bigger than just a personal relationship. But I think what Pope Francis and Pope Benedict have both said in their own life and in their own kind of witness is that personal aspect of this is still a love story. This is still the story of a relationship with Jesus of Nazareth. And all of the bioethical and moral and theological questions and all of those things that are important in their own right have to be understood through that lens, through that prism of something intimate and personal and in a real way, quite simple.
Chris: I would encourage Cy. As the days follow here and the autopsy, if you will, on the Francis pontificate begins to pick up steam. It’s already underway, of course, some of it quite nasty that everyone look at the death of Pope Francis. But first, the resurrection and the church that lives it every day. Understand, through that lens we have this idea, I think, maybe especially in America, that the church is one of several NGOs on this big field of play and there’s the elected officials and there’s the media and there’s the entertainment industry and the education world and the church, and they’re all sort of jockeying position and for influence on my friends. This is not reality. Reality is that all of those things, all of those players and their actions are only understood correctly through the lens of the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the Church that lives and celebrates it every single day. And thus the Francis pontificate is not to be evaluated in terms of this sort of barometer of, you know, political, cultural activity. The barometer of sanctification.
Cy: Amen. Amen.