Trent Horn cites Jesus’s “binding and loosing” message to the Apostles as the basis on which the Church makes her authoritative judgments concerning teachings and rituals not explicitly laid out in Scripture.
Transcript:
Host: Jacob in Portland, Oregon, listening on Mater Dei Radio, you are on, what’s your objection to the faith for Trent Horn?
Caller: Yeah, I’m actually wanting to piggyback on the previous caller who called about the divisive, you know, the schisms that kind of happened between Protestantism and Catholics. And maybe, I don’t know if this is where he was going, but this is a thought that came into my mind, is that I understand that you can use reason and Scripture to support a lot of things, but as a Protestant I tend to have more of a pious silence on a lot of these things that I feel like the Catholic Church has really defined in great, great scrutiny, that–and I just don’t know where they get that sort of authority.
Like perhaps, like just an example, the difference between transubstantiation and consubstantiation, or the fact that the wafer has to be wheat, and there’s just so many things that have been defined, and I am challenged to to know where that authority comes from in such great detail.
Trent: Okay, sure. Well, Jacob, it seems to me that your preference for defining theological truths would be that they’re explicitly described in Scripture, so you wonder how could the Church define certain things like the essence of transubstantiation, or how–what elements are required at Mass, because these aren’t explicitly described in the Bible. Is that where you’re coming from?
Caller: Yeah, well I understand tradition and its importance, and I actually think that you guys have that right as opposed to the Protestants, but I guess if it’s not in Scripture, who gave you that, who gave the Catholics that knowledge, and how can that be proven that that knowledge was was given?
Trent: Jesus. That would be the short answer. What I would say is that when Jesus founded his Church on the Apostle Peter and the other apostles in Matthew 16 and Matthew 18, He conferred on to them authority to be able to lead and teach in the Church and to be the safeguards and custodians of divine revelation. Specifically in Matthew 16 and Matthew 18, they are told that the Church is given the power to “bind and loose,” so what Jesus says to Peter, for example, is “Whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven; whatever you loose on Earth will be loosed in Heaven.”
There is a Protestant Biblical scholar named Artie France who says this language of binding and loosing goes back, actually, to Judaism, that rabbis could send out others and give them their authority in order to determine doctrine and practice. So binding and loosing is a way of talking about how you determine doctrine and practice, because Jesus did not answer every question we have that is not found explicitly in Scripture.
For example, here, two examples I can think–here’s a prime example: what are the words a person should say at a baptism? Scripture does not explicitly describe the words we should say, or the method we should choose to baptize. Would you agree that’s not explicitly described in Scripture?
Caller: It isn’t.
Trent: Right, so then, we would then– somebody has to say, “Well, I have authority to determine this,” and ultimately it’s gonna be a Protestant who says, “Well, I have the authority because I think my interpretation is correct, on what the Bible teaches about this.” And obviously Protestants disagree about the words that should be used, and especially the method that can be used, whereas what Catholics would say is, “Well, the Church has been given this authority to define, to be able to reveal what God has given to us in His Divine Law, but also the Church has authority to administer Ecclesiastical Law, or law that helps the Church spread its…spread the Gospel and be able to function.”
These would include laws related to, you know, how weddings and funerals ought to be conducted–that would be one example there, and other things related to liturgy or fasting rules, things like this; things that are not explicitly described in Scripture, which even Protestants have to have, because Scripture also never tells us how to conduct weddings or funerals, it never even says anything about people getting married in a Church, for example.
So I would say that the authority comes from the Church, and we see this in Scripture as a witness to this, but ultimately, though, I would ask, for the person who says, “Well, I think we ought to be silent on that which Scripture does not explicitly teach about,” I would ask, “Where does Scripture say we ought to be silent and only believe what’s explicitly taught there?” I would say Scripture actually never issues that kind of a command for us. So do you see where I’m going with that?
Caller: Yes. I guess…
Trent: We only have a few minutes left, so how about one last thought and I’ll try tie it up?
Caller: Okay, well…you know what, I’m okay, I think I’m satisfied.
Trent: Oh, that’s great. I’ll tell you what, if you’re not, feel free to call back in, I would enjoy continuing the conversation, or if you’d like to hear a little more, check out our website at Catholic.com, a lot of great resources there.