Karlo just finished his new book on purgatory and so he and Trent sit down to discuss a doctrine that even Catholics sometimes misunderstand.
Welcome to the Counsel of Trent podcast, a production of Catholic Answers.
Trent Horn:
I was at a conference a while ago and I was giving my presentation on why we’re Catholic. I walked down from the podium and I was kind of walking out to the book signing table. There was a guy who came up to approach me and he was smiling, but he was kind of a big sort of burly guy had like the big beard going on. And he walks up to me and he says, “Hey, there are you young man.” I said, “Yes, sir.” “I got a question for you.” And I’m like, “Okay.” “So you’re all into the Catholic stuff. Right?” I said, “Yeah, yeah, I am.” He goes, “All right, here’s my question for you. Where is purgatory in the Bible?” And I think it’s always funny. I hear this one and this is the classic question. The classic objection that we get.
Just the way the guy articulated to me as if like this was the silver bullet that would just like shred my Catholicism. I started to engage him in a bit of dialogue and I walked him over to our book signing table and gave him a copy of one of my books and prayed that it would do him some good. It got me thinking that this is one of the issues that comes up a lot in dialogue between Catholics and Protestants, the issue of purgatory. It always does amaze me that it comes up a lot and that it can be very controversial to a lot of people.
I thought today it’d be fun. I wanted to bring in someone who has been doing a lot of work on this subject. He’s currently finishing up. I think he has finished actually a new book on purgatory. Hopefully coming out soon here at Catholic Answers Press. He is my colleague and friend, Mr. Karlo Broussard, the ragin’ Cajun apologist. Mr. Karlo, welcome to the Council of Trent.
Karlo Broussard:
Thanks Trent, for having my brother.
TH:
Of course.
KB:
It’s good to be on with you, man.
TH:
I know I got to have you on here a lot more. I’m always thinking what kind of guests can I have on the Council of Trent podcast, but I’m in a building with all kinds of people who know all kinds of great things. I’m glad that you’re here with me and I’m glad you’re addressing this topic because I’m sure you would agree with me that when it comes to divisions between Catholics and Protestants and Catholics and Protestants talking about the church, purgatory is one of the big things that always comes up, right?
KB:
Yeah. Amen to that. I actually have a story, as well, that matches up with yours as far as that silver bullet question, right, that’s going to shred our Catholicism. I remember sometime back in Southern Louisiana, when I was working there and living there, I was doing inventory at these convenience stores, right? And so I was behind the counter and I had my back to the counter and I was like counting. I did cash auditing, as well. And so I was counting the cash behind the counter on the floor. I heard this gentleman come up to the counter and check out. For some reason, it came in my mind that he was a Christian. I don’t remember what he said, but he was witnessing to our Lord. This was at a time of when I was like fired up talking to everybody about Jesus, man, you know? I ran out [crosstalk 00:02:59]
TH:
Is this when you had your accordion and your long straggly hair?
KB:
It was about that time, yes. I ran around the counter and caught him outside in the parking lot and said, “Hey brother, I just wanted to thank you for your witness to the Lord.” And we were just in the parking lot and the first thing once he found, he said, “Well, where did you go to church?” I was like, “Well, such and such Catholic church,” you know? The first thing that comes out of his mouth is, “Well, what’s up with this purgatory thing?” Not about, it was nothing like, “Oh, I’m glad you’re a Christian, too.” And “Oh, that’s great.” You know? It was just immediately he went to purgatory.
It is something that’s always asked about. It’s on the hearts and minds of many of our Protestant brothers and sisters.
TH:
It’s actually the most searched term on the Catholic Answers website.
KB:
Yeah, and you would think, you know, Trent, it’s interesting. You would think that purgatory is a dead horse that’s been beaten over and over again over the past 30 years in the modern apologetics movement. But it’s not dead. It’s alive and it’s still bucking, brother.
TH:
The issue of purgatory is still trapped. The issue of purgatory is trapped within its own purgatory of where it is continually being debated between Catholics and Protestants. Why do you think though that when Protestants bring this up, that it’s one of the big things that come to their mind is almost like an affront to them? You know, cause what is this purgatory thing? Why do you think some Protestants find the doctrine almost offensive?
KB:
Yeah. I think it all boils down to, they see the doctrine as purgatory as an insult to the death of Jesus Christ and his salvific work on the cross. In fact, this is the argument that Normal Geisler and Ralph McKenzie put forward in their book Evangelicals and Roman Catholics agreements and disagreements. I know that’s not the exact titles. It’s slipping me at the moment.
But the idea is that … Whenever they say purgatory is an insult to the death of Jesus, we have to ask the question, “Well, why is it an insult?” It’s not going to be an insult if we’re looking at purgatory from the aspect of sanctification, right? Because our Protestant friends understand and believe in the doctrine of sanctification. That the merits of Jesus’ death on the cross are applied to us as we grow in holiness. Philippians 1:6 “What Christ has begun in us He will bring to completion.” There’s nothing in sanctification, or the sanctification aspect of purgatory, that’s going to be an insult to the death of Jesus Christ because Christ wills to apply the merits of his cross to our souls with regard to our growth in sanctity.
TH:
It’s like when we talk to a Protestant, this is a question I often ask them. They say, “Well, how can you believe in something like purgatory?” And I think it might be helpful that you and I to get a clear definition of purgatory on the ground before we keep going. But what I’ll ask them is, “Well, look, are you saved?” “Yeah, I’m saved.” “Okay. Do you sin?” “Yeah, I sin. You know, 1 John says anyone who says he doesn’t sin is a liar …
KB:
1 John 1:8-9, yeah.
TH:
… if you say that you don’t sin.” “All right, so in heaven we’re still going to be saved, but we’re not going to be sinning, right?” “Yeah.” Okay, so then what happens? What happens to us after we die but before we enter into heaven that means that we won’t sin. And so here we can apply that idea of sanctification we’ll reach that final sanctification as Hebrews 12:23 says the spirits of just men made perfect. Made perfect. What do you want to call that? I mean, whatever word you want to call that something like purify seems to make sense to me and that’s where you get the word purgatory from.
You’re saying then they can wrap their heads around it if we put it in that, at the very least, help them wrap their heads around it when we talk about it in terms of sanctification.
KB:
That’s right, so this is known as the sanctification model of purgatory. Whenever we sin it incurs the guilt of sin and it’s also going to incur some inordinate or unhealthy attachments to created goods. In the process of sanctification, whenever we receive the forgiveness of sins, the guilt is removed immediately. But in the process of sanctification, the unhealthy or inordinate attachments to created goods are done away with as the catechism points out, right, in it’s section on purgatory.
Purgatory, or at least one aspect of purgatory, is this final stage of sanctification. A final stage of purification of whatever remaining guilt of venial sin remains on the soul or whatever remaining unhealthy attachments to created goods remain. Just as sanctification in this life is in no way an insult to the death of Jesus Christ. So, too sanctification in purgatory in the afterlife before interest into the glory of heaven in no way is an insult to the death of Jesus Christ.
Now, I think our Protestant friends are going to agree with us on that one. They’re not going to have too much problem. In fact, many Protestants, right? And when you read the literature, many Protestants are embracing the sanctification model of purgatory.
TH:
Yeah, you had people like C S Lewis, who said that purgatory, maybe not the full Catholic understanding of it, but he said the idea of purgatory that you’d have to be washed up first before you entered into heaven, made perfect sense to him. There’s a contemporary Protestant philosopher, Jerry Walls.
KB:
The logic? The Transforming Logic of Purgatory I think is the name of it?
TH:
Yeah, I think he says Purgatory, The Logic of Total Transformation is the book.
KB:
That is correct.
TH:
And so he talks about agreeing with the same kind of sanctification model. And so this is kind of a bridge to reach are out there. Walls is actually really interesting guy. I’d love to have him on the show or do a debate with him. Cause he actually co-wrote a book, Critiquing Catholicism. He has a co-written book, Critiquing Catholicism and a co-written book, Critiquing Calvinism. I agree with him on the Calvinism book, but obviously not the Catholicism book. Though he embraces this aspect of purgatory, which is essentially the aspect that the catechism talks about primarily.
KB:
That’s right. The catechism in paragraphs 1030 to 1031 does seem to emphasize …
TH:
It emphasizes it.
KB:
It emphasizes the sanctification aspect of purgatory in as much as it defines it as this final purification of the elect. But there is another aspect of purgatory that the catechism does point to when it talks about temporal punishments that are a consequence of sin, and it’s this satisfaction model, right?
TH:
Right.
KB:
That causes much concern for our Protestant brothers and sisters.
TH:
Before we get to that, then, let’s just read what the catechism says and get ourselves a firm definition of purgatory to move forward.
KB:
Sure.
TH:
The catechism says in paragraphs 1030 through 1031, all who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified are indeed assured of their eternal salvation. But after death they undergo purification so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven, we were talking about earlier.
KB:
Right.
TH:
Then then 1031 says the church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. So when your Protestant friends are talking to you, some of them have this mistaken view that purgatory is like a third option between heaven and hell.
KB:
It is not.
TH:
Or a way that you could earn your way into heaven out of hell.
KB:
It is not.
TH:
It is not. If you’re going to purgatory, you are going to heaven. It’s a transitory stage.
KB:
Guaranteed.
TH:
I guarantee it. You’re going to like the way you are in heaven. I guarantee it, as the men’s warehouse guy would say. The church formulated her doctrine of faith and purgatory, especially at the counsels of Florence and Trent, I’m sure you’ll bring up here shortly, the tradition of the church by reference to certain texts of scripture speaks of a cleansing fire.
KB:
Yeah.
TH:
Then let’s make sure we have a firm definition before we talk about the different models, because I think a lot of people get hung up on purgatory. I know when I’ve read Protestant apologist, a favorite trope of theirs is to say that purgatory was invented in the middle ages. They’ll quote, this guy, Jacques Le Goff who wrote a book with University of Chicago Press talking about it.
KB:
The birth of purgatory.
TH:
The birth of purgatory, and they’ll quote this academic press saying, “Oh, it was invented in the middle ages.” No, what was invented there was the idea of purgatory being a particular place that people would go. Whereas Le Goff even says that you can go back to origin, Clement of Alexandria. And I would say even earlier than that, that you can find the notion of purgatory. I mean, in the second century you have the Abercius Stone where Bishop Abercius on his headstone says, “Pray for Bishop Abercius.”
KB:
Right. You have purgatory entailed very early in prayers for the dead.
TH:
Right.
KB:
Right, from the mid second century on. Now the idea of purgation and the idea of temporal punishment due for sin being taken care of in the afterlife, we find that as early as Clement of Alexandria. So that’s right at the turn of the third century in historal Mata, he emphasizes two things, two aspects, which are two of the several aspects of the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. And that is temporal punishment due for sins being taken care of in the afterlife, as well as the purification of the guilt of sin. And this is within the context of referring to those who are saved so the guilt of sin is not mortal guilt, meritorious of hell.
TH:
Right.
KB:
So it is the saved, but nevertheless, having to make up or pay the debt of temporal punishment. And this gets back to that satisfaction model that many of our Protestant brothers and sisters have a hard time with. The question concerning the catechism’s definition of purgatory as the final purification of the elect is does the remission of the debt of temporal punishment, is that involved in the final purification? And I would argue, yes, as I do in my book, my forthcoming book Own Purgatory. I argue that involved in the final purification is the remitting of that due pain to the soul. Right?
However we want to parse that pain out, whether it’s going to be a sensory pain with a material fire, or just a spiritual pain of some sort. That’s where we’re in the speculative realm. And there is no definitive church teaching on that and we can go back and forth on that. But the idea of having a debt of temporal punishment that is found in the tradition in the early church fathers is found in the official teaching of the church. And it’s a part of this final purification because in as much as a debt is due, right, that has an effect upon the soul. Like I am due a certain pain for the inordinate pleasures I partook of.
And whenever I satisfy that debt and that debt is remitted, that removes an impediment to me achieving the eternal glory of the Beatific visions and so thus can be contextualized within the overarching theme of the final purification.
TH:
Let’s break that down then, cause I think that issue of temporal versus eternal punishment is important for people to grasp, especially for our Protestant brothers and sisters. Cause what they’ll say is, “Carlo, my man, I can do nothing to atone for punishment due to me because of sin. Like only Jesus can atone for my sins. I can no way make up for the punishment due to my sins.” And we would agree, yes for the eternal punishment we are due. But even when we sin, there are punishments that we endure in this life. Punishments that we endure that are finite that we make up for. that we make up for.
The idea that there are different kinds of punishments or consequences to make up for sins. One example I’ve heard used before, this makes sense of even my kids. If my five year old who loves playing with baseball outside, if he broke the neighbor’s window, you know, the punishment that’s due to restore that the restorative justice would be fixing the window. My five-year-old would never be able to pay for that window. He ain’t got a job. He is incapable of doing it. I will do it on his behalf.
But, he can still make up for the temporal punishment. The punishments due him for acting in this reckless way. He can make up for that in his own finite way through a punishment that’s given him. Is that a way to understand temporal versus eternal punishment?
KB:
Yeah. That’s a way to distinguish the two. The eternal punishment due to sin would be obviously hell. But there’s also a temporal consequence or debt of sin. Right? And so in that case, what you have here is you have a form of suffering that your son is going to undergo on account of a wrong deed, a sin that he committed, right, if he did something wrong. For you to employ such a means without any sort of wrongdoing would be an injustice, right? So it has to be on account of wrongdoing.
Now, if we’re going to say that Christ’s death on the cross took care of all punishment, both eternal and temporal, in an absolute sense then you would be insult, your action to impose that punishment upon your son would be an insult to the death of Jesus.
TH:
I can’t ground him cause he’s made up for any punishment due to anyone. None of us could ever be punished or criticized because Christ has atoned for every wrong thing we’ve ever done.
KB:
That’s right, and so the question becomes, well, what does scripture say? What does the Bible say? Now it’s important for your listeners out there, Trent, to know that the Catholic Church, and even St. Thomas Aquinas is very well known for this and saying that the death of Jesus Christ is indeed sufficient for remitting all punishment, both eternal and temporal.
TH:
And temporal.
KB:
And in fact, it does do so initially in the sacrament of baptism, both eternal in temporal punishment, if you’re an adult, the temporal punishment due for your sins would be remitted, as well.
TH:
That’s why people in the early church waited til right before they died to get baptized.
KB:
Right, and so the question is from the Catholic perspective, we don’t see purgatory in and of itself as an insult to the death of Jesus. The question is what did Christ will concerning the application of the merits of his death on the cross? Did Christ will that his death remit all punishment and an absolute sin since both eternal and temporal throughout our lives, as we continue to sin? Or did Christ will that some temporal punishment be due to our post-baptismal sentence as saved Christians? And I argue, as I argue in my forthcoming book, I argue for the latter. That Christ did indeed will that Christians, born again Christians, would have to suffer on account of their sins, at least temporarily speaking. And I think Hebrews 12:5-6 is a great example.
TH:
Right, actually, I just brought that up, that when it comes to understanding, I think that’s a great question you’ve asked, which is we know Christ atoned for sin on the cross, but what did he will for that which he atoned? Because you could say Christ could have, through his death on the cross, willed universalism that all people will go to heaven no matter what they have done because every sin has been forgiven. But clearly he has not willed that based on what has been revealed in divine revelation.
Even though it is sufficient, he’s capable of doing that, we have to ask what did he will, how has that come down to us? And then do we still receive temporal punishment, even from God, even in light of Christ being crucified?
KB:
For a saved Christian.
TH:
For a saved Christian. Well, look what Hebrews chapter 12 says the message to saved Christians. It says in Hebrews 12:7, “It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline in which all have participated in, you were illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them showing not much more be subjected to the father of spirits and live.”
KB:
Yeah.
TH:
I think that, that’s important. There’s this aspect of the temporal punishment of sin. Though, is there a debate among Catholic theologians about whether one might say that purgatory, the act of purification itself, is the temporal punishment that one receives or that it’s something that’s separate?
KB:
Yeah, you could go either way. So theologians … All the church teaches is that if there is any debt of temporal punishment due to the soul after death for the elect, for those who are dying in friendship with Christ, that debt will be remitted. So that’s either going to be the pain endured. “Pain.” However you want to parse that out for a soul experiencing pain. The suffering of the soul, that the suffering that the soul undergoes in the final purification that could make up or remit the debt of temporal punishment, or it could be some positive infliction of suffering upon the soul from without. Like a positive act of God to inflict suffering upon the soul and theologians debate about how that might happen within the realm of speculation, but that there is a suffering and thus the remission of any debt of suffering due to the soul that is a part of church teaching.
And I think Hebrews 12 does give us a good picture that this is the case for Christians. Now, granted, this is not for the afterlife. But it does provide the principle that even saved Christians suffer on account of their sins. Now Hebrews verse six, you started with verse seven. If you back up the verse six, it’s even clearer. It says, “For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves and chastises every son whom he receives.” Notice, he’s talking about the son, so that’s a Christian, we’re sons of God, being chastised. Now, chastised there means in Greek to punish severely implying whipping or to punish or to punish severely. You have the idea of wrongdoing embedded within that chastisement. Then if you back up to verse five, it’s even clearer. “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord nor lose courage when you are punished by him.”
Once again, that phrase, “when you are punished” in Greek has the idea of wrongdoing. So the chastisement, or the punishment, is on account of wrongdoing. And that’s the essence of punishment being administered to a “son” that is a Christian, right?
TH:
Right.
KB:
And so what we see here is this principle that saved Christians do incur a debt of temporal punishment that they have to remit. And if it’s not completed in this life, well then, and it remains after death, then the remission of that debt would have to be taken care of before entrance into the beatific vision.
Here’s the bottom line, getting back to whether this is an insult to Jesus or not. Given what is revealed to us, that Christ wills that we, after baptism, still have to suffer on account of our sins in a temporal sense. In as much as that is revealed to us and thus a part of Jesus’ plan and the divine will, therefore it’s not an insult to the death of Jesus Christ.
TH:
Right, I think another problem many Protestants have when they think of purgatory, they think purgatory, it reminds me of Cardinal Ratzinger who said, “Purgatory is not a super worldly concentration camp or prison.” That purgatory is like this external thing we go to where we either work our way into heaven, purify ourselves. That’s like something where we do or purgatory abstractly does for us and Christ is nowhere to be found in the process.
Whereas, Spe salvi and Benedict XVI talked about how some theologians speculate that the fire of purgatory just is Christ himself. Is that another helpful way to look at it?
KB:
Yeah, I would agree because when you look at I Corinthians 3:11-15 where Catholics throughout the tradition have always turned to for biblical evidence for purgatory. There, Paul is talking about the day. The day of judgment. Then we can talk about whether we can parse that out for the final judgment or the particular judgment. I argued my forthcoming book that the principles that Saint Paul articulates there can apply for the particular judgment, as well.
But what he’s describing is a purification of the soul in the afterlife as it stands before the judgment seat of Christ, which he elsewhere articulates in II Corinthians 5:10. What Benedict XVI and Spe salvi is saying is that possibly the fire is the refining fire of God himself as we stand in his presence.
TH:
Well yeah, cause by of the Bible says God is a consuming fire.
KB:
Right, and that’s a legitimate approach to take. That’s a possible option or a way to understand the fire. Or you could see it as metaphorically for some active purification that God bestows upon the soul, right? Whether it’s actually Christ himself or not. But the idea of purification and contrasting it to this extra worldly prison camp, right? I think that’s a good point that Pope Ameritus Benedict XVI brings up because we don’t want to get stuck, Trent, on the doom and gloom of purgatory. And I think this is something that people have overemphasized in the tradition of overemphasizing the suffering of purgatory. Is they’re suffering? Yes. But some have emphasized it to such a degree that they’ve viewed it as just another chamber of hell that happens to be temporary rather than eternal.
Whereas, there are other aspects of purgatory that we find in the tradition that I articulated in my forthcoming book concerning the joys of purgatory, which …
TH:
Hmm … Now there’s something you don’t hear often.
KB:
That’s right, which contextualizes the suffering. The key joy is the assurance, the absolute assurance of your eternal destiny being with God in heaven. Then also, too, the joy that you no longer have to fight sin anymore. Right? And have to overcome the temptation. There are many joys that are articulated in my forthcoming book that contextualizes purgatory and contextualizes the suffering of purgatory to where we are no longer looking at it merely as another chamber of hell, and nor do we want to go in the other extreme and say well it’s all joy and peace and no suffering whatsoever. We don’t want to go on that extreme, either.
But what I do in my forthcoming book, Purgatory Is For Real, the joys of God’s purifying love working title is to try to contextualize the temporal punishment and the purification and the suffering that’s involved with the joys of purgatory.
TH:
All right, well, we’re coming near to the end of our time together. There’s so much more we could discuss. Maybe I’ll have you back on soon and we could really dive deep into the biblical evidence [crosstalk 00:26:43] …
KB:
Yeah, sure.
TH:
… because I don’t want to shortchange it. Though, I might be able to post online at trenthornpodcast.com … First, be sure to go to trenthorn podcast.com and become a premium subscriber where you get bonus access to our content. You make the podcast possible. Our YouTube rebuttal videos possible. I will include an excerpt from my book, Why We’re Catholic on purgatory. Some of that information, if you’re just hankering for more good apologetics on that, I will include that there, an excerpt from my book available for our subscribers at trenthornpodcast.com. So be sure to go and check that out. Otherwise, hopefully Carlo. I’ll have you back on soon and we’ll do a deep dive into the biblical evidence.
But for now I think this was very helpful to get an understanding of what purgatory is and the nature of the punishments involved. Is there anything else that you found of note or interesting during your intensive study of this subject or things people can look forward to in your book when it comes?
KB:
Yeah. Well, one of the, getting back to what we were talking about earlier, the thing that was of interest to me that I discovered was this idea how many, especially within the Protestant world, will embrace the sanctification model, but reject the “satisfaction model” and reject the idea of the debt of temporal punishment due for sin. And what I discovered is I noticed that even within our Catholic popular presentations of purgatory, we tend to emphasize the sanctification model to such a degree that it seems to me that some lose the satisfaction aspect. Well, actually it would be technically satis passio, right? Not satisfaction because there’s nothing the soul does itself because it’s purely passive.[crosstalk 00:28:30]
TH:
Okay, and that’s helpful. [crosstalk 00:28:32]
KB:
But, you get the idea.
TH:
I think the reason, well, that’s interesting there. Maybe we should use a different term like when we say sanctify is like something God does to me to satisfy. Protestant alarm bells will go off and say, “There’s nothing I can do to satisfy God. Even my temporal punishments due to me.” Fine. You’re under satis passio in that you are receiving a justly deserved punishment. It’s like, eh, you’re right. I think it’s like, we need to be sanctified, but sometimes we lose sight. Why? Well, cause we done wrong. We done bad. That’s on us. There’s no other way to call that, you got to call that a punishment of some kind.
KB:
Yeah, another thing that was interesting to me in my research is how purgatory is intrinsically tied up with the nature of punishment and getting to an understanding of what punishment is and the good of punishment. Because I think many have a tendency to shy away from the satisfaction model of purgatory and shy away from the debt of temporal punishment because they think punishment somehow impugns on God’s goodness. And it’s contrary to God’s goodness. But whenever we have a correct understanding of punishment, that is, we took pleasure in an act that we ought not to have taken pleasure in. And in order to reestablish the order of God’s providential plan for human behavior and what’s good and bad human behavior pain must be associated. Pain must be associated with the sin that I committed. [crosstalk 00:30:01]
TH:
I think that’s a way of, it’s a way of dignifying us as persons. Like when we think like we’re not cars. Like if a car is busted up and it goes into the mechanic shop, you don’t punish the car. You straighten out the dents, you put in a new carburetor, you put in the new parts and you’re set. But we’re not cars. We’re persons. Like if a car, it’s not the car’s fault it’s busted up and you just fix it. You sanctify it, if you will, you purify it. Or like water. If you need to purify water, you remove the impurities where the water is morally neutral.
But for us, the reason we’re in this bad shape is not like a car or poison water, it’s because we’ve done something, you’re right. We got this illicit … The only reason we ever choose sin is because it feels good.
KB:
Right.
TH:
That’s why we always do it. And so there has to be … [crosstalk 00:30:48]
KB:
Engaged in a feeling, a good feeling where a good feeling not to have been, but a bad feeling should have. It gets back to God’s providential plan. The order of divine justice, as Aquinas puts it. What that means, it’s God’s divine plan for human behavior for good action to be associated with pleasure, bad action to be associated with pain. And when we sin, we bring disorder. We fail to manifest that divine order for human behavior. And whenever there’s that disorder, in order for God to be truly just and truly good, the manifestation of his order of justice must … The order of justice must be manifest and his glory must shine forth. That’s why the disorder must be ordered in order to associate the pain with the sin.
TH:
Purgatory brings about right order within our souls. It is God who does that. It is Christ who does that. And the church has not explicitly revealed how he does that in purgatory. We don’t even know how long it takes or the process that’s involved, which is also something else. I think it’s important we would agree with this doctrine. We should focus on that which is revealed and not do too much heavy speculation on that which hasn’t been revealed. Which also in the history of this doctrine sometimes people spend a bit too much time on the speculative. Do you think?
KB:
I do. Like for example, you know, St. Robert Bellarmine and as very strong among the theologians throughout the centuries of the place of purgatory in the bowels of the earth. Right?
TH:
Right.
KB:
And it’s like, well, okay. I don’t think we need to go down that rabbit hole. I think that’s superfluous. Right? Let’s try to determine where is purgatory as if an immaterial state of existences in some spatial locality.
TH:
Right, yeah so I think it’s important here, and why I’m looking forward to your book when it comes out.
KB:
I do not do that in my book, by the way.
TH:
Right. You focus on the essentials and what’s revealed in the core nature of the doctrine and that’s helpful for us. When we explain this to Protestant brothers and sisters, it’s important to focus on that Purgatory is the way for God to bring right order into our disordered souls … [crosstalk 00:32:59]
KB:
And even objectively in the order of reality …[crosstalk 00:33:03]
TH:
Right, to restore what’s broken in the world to make it fixed again, but not like cars in a shop, like people who are treated with dignity as a father who disciplines his son.
KB:
Right.
TH:
I think we’ve got a good handle there, but I know your book is going to package it all together. Well, looking forward to people to get that when it comes out. How can people get hold of you if they want you to come speak at their parish or to read some more of your books? Where can they go?
KB:
They can go to Catholicanswerspeakers.com and order to book me for an event. Or they can just give us a call here at Catholic Answers and request for the Seminars Department. For my books, my two books that I have published, they can go to shop.catholic.com.
TH:
All right. Well thank you much, sir, for being with us today.
KB:
Thank you, Trent. It was fun, man.
TH:
Oh, it was. I’ll have you on again, soon. And we thank you all for listening. Hope you enjoyed this time together. And I hope that you all have a very blessed day.
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