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Karlo Broussard takes up the challenge of those who say Romans chapter 8 assures the Christian that salvation cannot be lost. The author of Meeting the Protestant Challenge puts this passage within the context of the full teaching of Jesus and the Apostles in order to uncover the truth about salvation.
Does Saint Paul promise my salvation is secure? Karlo Broussard is next.
Cy Kellett:
Hello, and welcome to Focus, the Catholic Answers podcast for living, understanding, and defending your Catholic faith. Part of our Catholic faith is that we have to work out our salvation in fear and trembling, that there are things that we have to do to make sure that we do not lose the salvation that’s been given to us in our baptism and in our coming to faith in Jesus Christ. But not every Christian agrees with us. There are a good number of Christians who say that is wrong, that that is somehow a theology of works and not a theology of faith, or that is just a misreading of, especially, what the Apostle Paul has to say in the Letter to the Romans.
Karlo Broussard, who’s the author of Purgatory is for Real: Good News About the Afterlife for Those Who Aren’t Perfect Yet. See? Not perfect yet. It’s very much this Catholic process. Catholics believe in a process of salvation, where many of our Protestant brothers and sisters believe more in an instant of salvation. Karlo’s also got some classes over at the School of Apologetics, those you can check out. But here’s what he had to say about, is my salvation absolutely secure?
Hello, Karlo Broussard, apologist for Catholic Answers.
Karlo Broussard:
Well, hello, Cy Kellett, host of Catholic Answers Live.
Cy Kellett:
It’s very nice to see you again.
Karlo Broussard:
It’s good to see you as well, brother.
Cy Kellett:
And you always write such good articles for the Catholic Answers Magazine online and the Catholic Answers Magazine in print.
Karlo Broussard:
Thank you.
Cy Kellett:
And you have one about my security, the security of my soul, whether it’s eternal or whether it’s still in jeopardy, I guess would be a way to say it. Is that a right way to say it, or am I saying that wrong?
Karlo Broussard:
Is my salvation secure?
Cy Kellett:
Secure. Okay, there we go. Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
When you say my soul is secure, I was like, “In which way?”
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, right.
Karlo Broussard:
Yes, concerning the security of our salvation, I recently wrote a piece on that.
Cy Kellett:
I got to say, there’s something very attractive about a common view among Protestants that Saint Paul teaches, and all we’ve got to do is believe what Saint Paul says, that once saved, always saved. I kind of like that.
Karlo Broussard:
That’s interesting. I never thought about whether I would like that doctrine. I’d have to think about it a little bit.
Cy Kellett:
Well, then I’d always be like, “Am I saved? Am I?”
Karlo Broussard:
I see your point, I see your point. If you had that epistemological, that knowledge, epistemological security-
Cy Kellett:
I’d get lazy, though.
Karlo Broussard:
… knowing that you’re secure, would seem to quell some fears perhaps. But that’s a good counterargument, right? You might get lazy.
Cy Kellett:
I wouldn’t be a might. I definitely would. It’s just in my nature.
Karlo Broussard:
Yeah. But then a Protestant would say, “Well, that laziness would have nothing to do with your salvation. It would only have to do with the amount of rewards you get in heaven.” Right.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, I see. Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
But one of the passages from Saint Paul, that some Protestants appeal to, to justify the belief of eternal security, that once you’re saved, there’s nothing that we can do to lose that salvation, to lose being in that right relationship with God, is Romans chapter 8, verses 38 through 39. So Paul writes, “For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Karlo Broussard:
So Norman Geisler, he argues this passage needs little comment, merely contemplation. It’s an essay he wrote for a book, Four Views on Eternal Security. And he thinks the fact that we should contemplate is there is literally nothing in all creation that can separate a believer from Christ, he says. So notice Paul’s listing all of these things, death, life, angels, principalities, and he says at the end, “nor anything else in all creation.” Well, Cy, you’re a part of that creation.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, I see.
Karlo Broussard:
So therefore you can’t separate yourself from the love of God in Christ Jesus.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. That seems to be saying more than the text is saying actually.
Karlo Broussard:
Well, that’s something we’re going to have to talk about.
Cy Kellett:
But I mean, this is a beautiful assurance, and we certainly, as Catholics, believe every word of it and wouldn’t deny a single word of it.
Karlo Broussard:
Right.
Cy Kellett:
And it is a beautiful, beautiful assurance. But it doesn’t seem to that Geisler is right to say it just needs contemplation and no comment.
Karlo Broussard:
The assumption being it’s so self-evident for his view-
Cy Kellett:
It’s so self-evident for his view that there’s nothing could be said about it. And I suppose, I mean, I am part of all creation, but that doesn’t seem to be what Paul’s talking about. You’re going to have to clear this up for me. So all I can say is, at least the first impression is, well, yeah, but if, say, nothing in all of creation can hurt you, that means everything except you. Well, I don’t know. You help me out here, help me.
Karlo Broussard:
Well, let’s consider the types of things that Paul is referring to here, and that might shed some light, well, it will shed light, on what Paul has in mind here and whether sin belongs in this category of things that he’s talking about.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, got you. Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
So whenever you look at the things he lists here, everything on the list, and we’re just going to set aside now for a moment “anything else in all of creation”. Okay?
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
Out of the 10 things he lists, which includes anything else in all creation, the nine of the 10 all refer to things that are external to and beyond the control of the believer.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, okay. Yes, that’s it. I see.
Karlo Broussard:
So check it out. He talks about death and life. Well, a believer can’t control that, right?
Cy Kellett:
I don’t control those.
Karlo Broussard:
We don’t control being born or death. Well, I mean, I suppose suicide could be thrown in the mix here. But you get the point. Death and life, that’s ultimately up to God, right? Nor can we control angels and demons, as he talks about angels and principalities. We’re definitely not in control of time, because Paul is talking about things present, things to come. Nor are we in control of the cosmos, powers, height, debt. Depth, excuse me, not debt.
Cy Kellett:
I can’t control my debt either! We can talk about that if you want, Karlo. But that is one of the things that seems to be out of my control.
Karlo Broussard:
So everything on the list here are things that refer to things external to and beyond the control of the believer, right? Now, just a few verses earlier in verse 35, Paul gives a similar list of things external to and beyond the control of a believer. He writes, “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?” So everything in this category of things that cannot separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, contain or involve things that are external to and beyond the control of the believer. Now, a believer’s sins do not belong within this category, because a believer’s sin is internal, not external, because it’s coming from the will of the individual. Nor is a believer’s sin beyond his control, because if it were beyond his control, it wouldn’t be voluntary, it wouldn’t be sin, right?
Cy Kellett:
It wouldn’t be sin. Right.
Karlo Broussard:
So the category of things that cannot separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus are things external to and beyond the control of the believer. Sin doesn’t fit in that category. So therefore, sin is not among these things that cannot separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. To state it differently, to state it positively, sin, therefore, is a type of thing that can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.
Cy Kellett:
Got it. Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
Does that make sense?
Cy Kellett:
Yes, it does. It actually makes very good sense.
Karlo Broussard:
Think about this, Cy. If sin were the kind of thing that couldn’t separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, it’s a bit odd that Paul would forget to include that within this category of things.
Cy Kellett:
Actually, as you were talking, I was mentally putting it in there, and it would stand out as so jarring if that was in there.
Karlo Broussard:
Like, “Sin can’t separate us.” Right.
Cy Kellett:
Like, “Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor sin can…” No, that would make no sense at all.
Karlo Broussard:
Right. Relative to everything else he’s said about sin, which is where we’re going to go in a moment here. So it would be odd if Paul had forgotten to include sin in this category of things that can’t separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, right? Especially in light of the fact that he includes famine. So he’s got famine in this thing, he remembered to include famine here, but he just forgot about sin somehow?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, right, right.
Karlo Broussard:
So given the nature of the things that Paul lists as that which can not separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, we’re able to conclude sin is not in that mix. If we were to use the little Louisiana Cajun analogy here, sin’s not an ingredient in the pot of gumbo here, right?
Cy Kellett:
No, it’s not.
Karlo Broussard:
It’s on the outside.
Cy Kellett:
Well, I mean, maybe I’m overthinking this maybe, but sin is really not an element of creation. God didn’t create sin.
Karlo Broussard:
That’s an interesting point. I’ll be honest with you, that idea just popped and pinged in my mind when we were initially talking about this, and, “nor anything else in all creation”, right?
Cy Kellett:
But sin is not part of creation.
Karlo Broussard:
Sin is not a part of creation. So that’s one possible line of inquiry that we could inquire about, right?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, right.
Karlo Broussard:
I’d have to think about that a little bit more because somebody could say, “Well, even though the defect is a privation of what is due, like good, and existence, and being, the sinner is still engaging the act of will, and willing to do the behavior that has the defect in it, which constitutes the sin.”
Cy Kellett:
Paul doesn’t even say your own will.
Karlo Broussard:
That’s right.
Cy Kellett:
He doesn’t say that.
Karlo Broussard:
He doesn’t even say you.
Cy Kellett:
He could have said that, right.
Karlo Broussard:
Here’s an analogy that might help. Let’s say, in order to expose the fallacious reasoning of Geisler here, suppose a man says to his fiance, whose family is trying to stop them from getting married, and he tells his fiance, “I won’t let anybody come between us, baby. You’ve got all these family members trying to interrupt everything. And I’m not going to let anybody come between us.” But that doesn’t mean there’s no possible way for you, fiance, to break off the relationship.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, that would be creepy.
Karlo Broussard:
All it means is that I ain’t going to let anybody else, external to us as a couple, influence us and break up here. Right?
Cy Kellett:
Right. That’s a great analogy.
Karlo Broussard:
So similarly, Paul is saying, listen, all these things can’t separate us from the love of God, but that doesn’t mean I can’t. All these things external to the believer can’t separate us from the love of God, but that doesn’t mean I can’t separate myself from the love of God. All right. So now… Go ahead.
Cy Kellett:
Well, I was just going to say then, what would all of Paul’s teaching against sin mean if what he intended was, “Sin can’t separate…” It’s just like, well, don’t do it because it’s bad?
Karlo Broussard:
There would seem to be a conflict, right?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Like why would he be teaching so much against sin if sin’s…
Karlo Broussard:
Or perhaps, maybe a more focused question would be, what does Paul say about sin elsewhere relative to this question of our salvation and whether or not we can lose it?
Cy Kellett:
Oh, that’s great.
Karlo Broussard:
Right?
Cy Kellett:
Right. Look, if you can’t answer my sloppy questions, go ahead and answer your focused questions. Whatever, Karlo.
Karlo Broussard:
Because if we can show that Paul elsewhere teaches that sin can forfeit our salvation, then that would show that Geisler’s interpretation of Romans 8:38 through 39 is false.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, it’s going too far.
Karlo Broussard:
So what does Paul say elsewhere in his writings about sin? Well, let’s consider Romans itself, in the very same letter, in Romans chapter 6 verses 12 through 13, here’s what Paul says, “Let not sin…” Now, keep in mind, he’s writing to Christians, born again, saved Christians, brother. So they’re initially justified. “Let not sin, therefore, reign in your mortal bodies to make you obey their passions. Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness.” Now, it doesn’t make sense, and Geisler’s interpretation of, once saved, always saved, eternal security, that Paul would warn Christians about letting sin reign over them. Right? It doesn’t make sense that Paul would warn them about letting sin reign over them if he didn’t think it were possible for Christians to be re-enslaved to sin like they were before they were initially justified. So consider, what does the reign of sin entail? Well, in Paul’s whole theology, the reign of sin over an individual entails not being justified.
Cy Kellett:
Right, got it. I see what you mean.
Karlo Broussard:
The state being in a right relationship with God. The state of not being saved. Okay?
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
These are individuals, the audience of Paul here, or Christians, who are no longer in that state because they are justified, they are saved. Now, Paul is warning them, “Don’t let sin reign over you.” Well, in other words, don’t go back to that state before your justification. So in the very warning, in the exhortation, is necessarily implied Paul’s understanding that it’s possible for these Christians to once again be enslaved to sin like they were before their state of justification. So this is evidence that Paul understands that Christians can lose salvation, they can lose that right ordered relationship with God as our ultimate end, which is that saving relationship.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
Now, we can go elsewhere in Paul’s writings to another letter, his First Letter to the Corinthians in chapter 6 verses 9 through 10 is the key text. But what’s important is to look at the context in verses 1 through 8. And basically, Paul is chastising the Corinthians for having lawsuits with their fellow Christian brethren, and he’s chastising them for that. And immediately following this, Paul writes in verse 9, “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God?” The implication is, the behavior-
Cy Kellett:
That’s unrighteous behavior.
Karlo Broussard:
That’s right. You got it.
Cy Kellett:
And don’t do that.
Karlo Broussard:
And don’t do that. Why? Because you might not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
So these are Christians. These are saved Christians. And Paul is saying, “Hey, the behavior that you’re engaging in as a justified saved Christian is a behavior that’s unrighteous. And the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God.” Implying that these saved Christians possibly could not inherit the Kingdom of God due to this unrighteous behavior. So Paul clearly thinks it’s possible for a saved Christian to eventually not inherit the Kingdom of God. And then he says in verses 9 through 10, “Do not be deceived, neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the Kingdom of God.” And notice Paul warns them, “Do not be deceived…” The implication being that Paul thinks these Christians could be deceived into thinking that these sorts of sins would not forfeit the Kingdom of God.
Karlo Broussard:
So maybe perhaps Geisler and other Protestants out there following this theology need to take heed of Paul’s exhortation here, “Don’t be deceived…” Because Paul thinks these sins can prohibit one from inheriting the Kingdom of God. And he’s directing these statements at saved, justified Christians. And he’s warning them to not engage in them. The implication being that if they do, they will not inherit the Kingdom of God. And that further or implies that it’s possible for a Christian to lose his or her salvation.
Cy Kellett:
Now, I think you’ve made it very clear from the writing of Saint Paul, and often this argument stays within the writing of Saint Paul, but I do believe Jesus has things to say about this.
Karlo Broussard:
He does.
Cy Kellett:
Because every Christian accepts the words of Jesus, unless you’re a very foolish Christian…
Karlo Broussard:
Well, at least, how you interpret the words of Jesus.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. So help me out with, what would you say Jesus’s take would be on this?
Karlo Broussard:
Well, there’s a teaching of Jesus that we find in John 15:9 through 10, which actually works really well in support of our reading of Romans 8:38 through 39, and provides help, because there is a direct connection between sin and love of God. These other passages that we refer to by Paul in Romans and First Corinthians, there was no clear connection between these two motifs of sin and love of God, but we do find it in John 15. So the question is, what does Jesus have to say about the relationship between sin and the love of God?
Cy Kellett:
Got it. Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
That’s what Paul’s talking about in Romans 8:38 through 39. So let’s see how Jesus connects the two. Well, here’s what he says, “As the father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my father’s commandments and abide in his love.” So notice, Christ makes keeping his commandments a condition for abiding in his love. What is the implication?
Cy Kellett:
If you don’t keep his commandments, you don’t abide in his love.
Karlo Broussard:
That’s right. If we do not keep his commandments, which is sin, we do not abide in his love. And there you have Jesus explicitly making the connection between sin and his love and the love of God. Sin keeps us from abiding in the love of God, or at least, sin can, depending on if we’re talking about mortal sin or venial sin.
Cy Kellett:
But that conditional, “If you keep my commandments…” also gives a very strong reassurance that is exactly like what Paul said, that nothing is going to separate you from me. Because he says, “If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love.” Meaning, I’m not withdrawing it from you. Nothing in the world is going to take it away from you. The conditional is you keeping the commands.
Karlo Broussard:
That’s right, the condition is keeping the commandments. So that would imply that there is something that can take us away from the love of God, namely-
Cy Kellett:
But it’s not God.
Karlo Broussard:
It’s not God, it’s me, and sin, in particular.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
Now, that’s Jesus. But we also have this connection between sin and the love of God in the writing of Saint John in his First Epistle, chapter 5 verse 16, he writes, “So we know and believe the love God has for us. God is love. And he who abides in love, abides in God, and God abides in him.” All right? Now, just a few verses later in verses 20 through 21, John identifies at least one sin we can commit that would forfeit this abiding in God’s love, namely hatred of brother. So here’s what he writes, “If anyone says, ‘I love God’…” Remember, he’s just talking about abiding in God’s love. Now he’s going to say, “If anyone says, ‘I love God’, and hates his brother, he’s a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. And this command that we have from him, that he who loves God should love his brother also.”
Karlo Broussard:
So notice, in John’s mind, we need to abide in love, but one condition, at least one condition for abiding them in that love, is not hating our brother. To state it positively, a condition for abiding in that love is loving our brother. And so in John’s mind, he sees there is at least one sin that could forfeit this abiding in God’s love, namely the hatred of our fellow brothers. And this is a letter written to Christians who are already saved. Why would John be giving them this exhortation if he thought hatred of brother could not separate us from the love of God?
Cy Kellett:
Right, right. Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
In other words, he wouldn’t be giving the exhortation if he believed that, if he had Geisler’s view of salvation, this sort of exhortation would be unintelligible, there would be no reason for him to utter this exhortation.
Cy Kellett:
So it does seem that this a very powerful and beautiful passage in the eighth chapter of Romans, it doesn’t say what Geisler says it says. And you can see that because that would be inconsistent with the rest of Paul’s letters. But also you’re saying, it would be inconsistent with the broader teaching of the Apostolic Christianity, Jesus’s own words in the gospels, and then the words of people like the Apostle John.
Karlo Broussard:
That’s right. So we have a coherent whole here, right?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, that’s right.
Karlo Broussard:
So what we’re seeing is that Geisler’s interpretation of Romans 8:38 through 39 does not fit with the whole of the New Testament revelation concerning salvation, our salvation, and sin. When we look at other writings of Paul in the Letter of Romans itself and in his First Letter to the Corinthians, as well as in the writing of Saint John, another apostle, as well as in the teaching of Jesus. And so seeing how Geisler’s interpretation of Romans 8 does not fit with the whole, gives us red flags, right? That’s a good sign that this interpretation, something’s awry here, it’s flawed, right? But also the context of the whole, the whole of the New Testament revelation actually disproves that interpretation, and in turn supports the Catholic understanding that one can lose our salvation. And this is a belief that we find rooted in this written means of transmitting God’s divine revelation, namely sacred Scripture.
Karlo Broussard:
And there was one final thing before we end here. I misquoted, I said, First John 5:16, it’s actually First John 4:16.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
I was like, man, something’s wrong there.
Cy Kellett:
I thought that, Karlo. But I was like, I don’t want to throw all my Bible knowledge at him.
Karlo Broussard:
So for our listeners, that way they don’t get frustrated when they go to chapter 5, it’s actually chapter 4.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. So I got to ask a very practical question, for those who are listening and are convinced by what you said, and I do think they should be convinced by what you said. But the idea then is, it’s clear what Paul is saying, nothing can separate us from the love of God. And I love the analogy of the husband to the wife. That doesn’t mean the prospective wife doesn’t get to reject him. But nothing else. So this is a great reassurance, whether you’re giving the Catholic or the Geisler interpretation, it’s a great reassurance. But as a Catholic, you say, “Well, if I keep his commandments, then he’s never going to leave me, he’s never going to abandon me,” and all that.
Karlo Broussard:
And even the keeping of the commandments is a grace that he gives us to be able to do so. For nothing good can come from us as the first cause, it’s all got to come from God, right? So that’s even a blessing in and of itself, that whatever good I’m able to do is due to a grace that God gives me.
Cy Kellett:
So here’s the practical question. I haven’t kept all of his commandments. So what do I do?
Karlo Broussard:
Well, you repent.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
Which is a grace that God gives us, to turn from our sin, to repent, and if it’s mortal sin, to be restored back to that love of God, to abide once again in that love of God in Christ Jesus. Ordinarily that’s through the sacrament of reconciliation, it can happen outside of the sacrament in extraordinary circumstances. If it’s venial sin, a simple confession, a private confession and repentance would suffice. But you would already be abiding in the love of God. So I guess we got to restrict our comments here to mortal sin, because we’re talking about how to get back into that love of God, and that’s through repenting of our sin, ordinarily through the sacrament of reconciliation.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. But that list of adulterers and idolaters, homosexuals, thieves, the greedy, the drunkards-
Karlo Broussard:
Forfeit the inheritance of the Kingdom.
Cy Kellett:
In one way or another, we’re all going to end up on that list at some point.
Karlo Broussard:
Perhaps.
Cy Kellett:
But it just seems to me that the second thing that follows that, which is, God continues to work with us. It just feels so much more like a process in the Catholic way of thinking it, it is a process that goes on and on and on.
Karlo Broussard:
Indeed. That’s right. Well, we can fall out of that love, but God doesn’t… He could, in justice to himself, have just left us, leave us out of that love of him, that abiding in his love. But he gives us the graces of repentance to restore us back to that love by a sheer gift, as pure gratuity on his part. And he does that, thanks be to God. Now, there’s one thing that I wanted to share also too, before we end.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
And I know we’re fixing to close up here. And that is to say, I don’t want our listeners to think we are saying we can have no assurance of our salvation.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, okay. Great.
Karlo Broussard:
Because we can have some assurance. It’s just not the type of assurance that folks like Norman Geisler and others think, an assurance that would involve an absolute certainty, an infallible assurance, like, “Without doubt of error, I know heaven is mine.” Whereas, the Catholic view is, no, we can have a moral certainty. Even St. Thomas Aquinas would say, “There’s certain signs that I am in grace.” Right? The fact that I am able to do a good is a reasonable sign that I am in grace. The fact that I can love God and participate in worship of God is a sign that I am in a state of grace, because God’s giving me those graces. But we can never have this absolute certainty that heaven is mine, because that would require access into the divine mind and the divine plan of who is numbered among the elect, who God has decreed to give the grace of final perseverance. Only God knows that.
Karlo Broussard:
Now, I could know if he revealed it to me, but without that sort of private revelation, we could never have that sort of absolute certainty, although we can have a moral assurance and that is grounds for joy, that’s a source of joy, right? To have the joy that is proper to the Christian life to experience the love of God as we walk with him daily.
Cy Kellett:
Praise God.
Karlo Broussard:
Amen to that, brother.
Cy Kellett:
Thank you, Karlo.
Karlo Broussard:
You’re welcome.
Cy Kellett:
I would bet almost any Christian would accept the basic principle that each line, each paragraph, each part of Scripture must be understood and can only be properly understood in the context of the whole, the whole of the Scripture, and for us Catholics, we would say, in the whole of the Christian life that God has given us. And so when we interpret these passages like this passage from the eighth chapter of the Letter to the Romans, we have to do so in a way that is consistent with what the passage itself says, but interprets that passage in the light of everything else said in the Scriptures. And it just seems so clear from the teaching of Jesus himself, most importantly, from the teaching of the other apostles, John and Paul in particular, in writing, that our salvation is secured by a free gift that God gives us, but that we have to maintain that, we have to cooperate in that work.
And knowing that we have to cooperate makes a big difference in the spiritual life. It means that our spiritual life has a great deal of import. We’re not just fooling around, around the edges. Our salvation is on the line when we decide whether or not we want to cooperate with the graces that God has given us.
Thanks for watching. Send us an email if you like: focus@catholic.com is our email address. We do need your financial support, and if you’re willing to support us with $5 or $5,000, am I allowed to say $5,000? That seems like… Okay. Or $5 million! Just go to givecatholic.com and put a little note there when you give that this is for Catholic Answers Focus. Don’t forget, if you’re watching on YouTube, to like and subscribe, that helps us grow the podcast. And we’re really grateful for those who have done so, because the podcast is growing. And if you get your podcast audio on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or one of the other podcast spots, don’t forget to subscribe there, because then you’ll be notified when new episodes are available. I’m Cy Kellett, your host. Thanks for being with us. We’ll see you next time, God-willing, right here on Catholic Answers Focus.