In this clip, Cy Kellett welcomes Trent Horn to discuss the complexities of the pro-choice argument. Trent continues with details about the implications of illegal abortions and the importance of considering all parties involved in unintended pregnancies.
Transcript:
Caller: I’m pro choice because I believe that if we don’t have legal abortions, then there’s going to be women that are exposed to illegal abortionist quacks, as you would say, and we’re going to have women that are dying. So, Judy, you think the answer that some women may choose to go have unsafe abortions. You think that you know this. I know this from experience. You think that the best. My personal experience, but I. My father was a law enforcement officer, and in the the 60s, he had a man that operated an independent motel on the north side of Waco and came to him concerned because there had been people renting a room weeks, weekends and weekends and weekends, leaving lots of bloody sheets and bloody towels. And he was concerned that there was something. Something going on. And they staked it out. And sure enough, there was a man performing illegal abortions. Wow. And when they. They caught the person, the person that he was performing the illegal abortion on actually nearly bled to death. And she wasn’t able to have children. Her father was actually a very important person in Waco and she was afraid to tell her parents.
Trent Horn: Right. No, that’s. That’s very sad to hear about, Judy, and to hear these details about what happens when people try to take violent solutions to difficult life problems and go and see people like this, like illegal abortion providers. I agree with you that it’s very disturbing. So I think the question we have to ask is, what do we do with these people involved? What is the best solution that we should come up with? And when it comes to an unintended pregnancy, would you agree we have primarily. Well, I guess really we have three people involved. There’s a third person here nobody ever talks about. We probably should talk about them more. In an unintended pregnancy, we have the woman who is pregnant, the man who impregnated her, and the child who now exists. So we’ve got those three people, right?
Caller: Well, you’ve got the people that prey on these women, too, right? Well, these are the secondary elements, like the people who will offer abortion services offer illegal services. And there are people who will offer not legal abortion because they don’t have acts. At the time, the state of Texas did not offer legal abortion services.
Trent Horn: Judy, let me ask you a question. For anything that is illegal, is there also a black market for that thing? For example, murder is illegal, but there’s still a black market. In hitmen, drugs are illegal, but you can find a black market for illegal drugs. For anything that’s illegal there, there will be a dangerous black Market. Right.
Caller: You’re, you’re, you’re mixing. You’re changing the subject. We’re talking about why. I am pro life. We’re not talking about murder. Do you mean pro choice? Pro choice. Excuse me. You’re changing the subject on me. Well, here’s what I’m trying to understand. You’re saying you think abortion should be legal so that it’s safer for the mother to end the life of her child. Yes. So she has the right to counseling and she can make the choice. Under safe. Under safe, she has access to counseling. And if she makes that choice, she gets to go into a clinic that safe. Judy, why should we care. And medical experts, Judy, why. Why should we make it safer for big people to hurt little people? Why? I’m talking about a person that is emotionally charged, that they don’t know where to turn. Maybe the father of the child has stepped away from the picture. I’m talking about being able to have access to medical and psychological counseling. Judy. Let me ask you another question, Judy. Can we offer medical and psychological counseling, medical treatment, psychological counseling, support. Can we offer those things in a way that. So that both the mother and the child live? We can. Then why don’t we. Then why don’t we only do. Why don’t we only do that then? Because a woman has the right to choose. Okay, Judy, if someone. To choose. If someone makes a choice, should they have to face the consequences of their choice? That’s, That’s a moral issue. And I’m not going to pass judgment on anybody. You’re not going to pass judgment on anybody? Do you think. Not going to pass judgment. Do you think it’s wrong to make abortion illegal? Yes, I do. Aren’t you passing. Well, I think. Judy, here’s how I feel. I think. I didn’t ask how you feel. You interrupted me before I got to finish speaking. Go right ahead. Didn’t you? You interrupted me. Go ahead. So let me finish my sentence. I believe that impoverished and very young women will not have the opportunity to get access to things like Planned Parenthood, other agencies that will offer them the counseling, the guidance, and the opportunity to say, yes, you can have your child. I mean, a lot of young, impoverished women may not even know how they got pregnant.
Trent Horn: All right, well, let me. Let me. Okay, well, let me jump in here, Judy, because I think we have to get back to the main point with our disagreement. I know you said, well, you’re not passing judgment and morality, but at the same time, I believe that we should make it illegal for human beings to kill other human beings. And you said that it’s wrong to make abortion illegal in that regard. So my question. Is this your argument? This is the logic you’re arguing from. And the logic does not make sense to me. When some people commit crimes, they might get hurt when they commit crimes, including the crime of ending a child’s life. So my question for you is, among born people, do we ever say, let’s make it safer for this born person to kill another born person? Do we ever do that among born people?
Caller: I’m sorry, repeat it. Repeat your. Do we ever make it legal so it’s safer for one born person to kill another born person? Do we ever do that? No, that’s illegal. Well, why. You are talking about the state of Texas, right? I’m just talking about society in general. So you agree we shouldn’t make it be more specific. You can’t kill another human person. That’s. That’s homicide. Absolutely. Is the human being in the womb what a woman is pregnant with? Is that a person? The state of Texas does not consider a child in a womb a person. Could the state be wrong? That’s just that. That’s the way the law is. So let’s say you and I 100 times that they have. You’re going to have to go to your legislatures and get the law changed. Okay, so the law could be wrong. Right. You know, if, you know, the baby can’t live outside the womb. That’s why we have neonatal units. So if they’re born prematurely, you know, a baby can live at a pound and a half if it has the right, you know, medical care, but it can also live. Again, you’re changing the subject. How am I changing this? I’m just trying to probe. We’re talking about premature babies and babies, us killing babies, instead of talking about pro choice, which is why I called in. Okay. I’m actually not changing the subject because pro choice involves the choice to have an abortion. Right. Talk about your opinion when I called in to express my choice.
Trent Horn: Cool. Yeah. And you. You have your opinion, but I think that what’s important here is we are talking about a very, very important issue that has two big stakes involved. That if those who identify as pro choice are right, then people who are pro life are imposing morality on women and hurting women. But if pro life people are right, then those who identify as pro choice are imposing their morality on unborn children. And. And children are being violently killed, over a million of them every year. So it’s big stakes here. That are involved. And so those of us who disagree, we have to get to the root of our disagreement. And I think the root of our disagreement, what you and I have gotten to is not so much about abortion being legal or illegal or the safety involved. What we’re talking about now is, does abortion kill a person or a human being? Because we don’t. We don’t make it legal. So it’s safer to kill human beings. We agreed with that with born people. Now we gotta talk about whether the unborn are human beings. And so to me, that is the, the center that we need to focus on. And the two issues you brought up, I’m happy to discuss. You know, the state of Texas or whoever. The law says a baby isn’t a human being. Well, the law could be wrong. I say we change it. The law did. The, the law used to be wrong about black people when it said that they were only 3/5 of a person or that they could be slaves. Laws can be wrong. Second, my other point, and I’m fine to go back and forth with you on why does it matter if a child can only survive outside of the womb at a certain point, like viability, the child is growing and living and they’re healthy in the womb. And if that’s the case, what right do we have to take them from the only safe place they can live and kill them? That just doesn’t make sense to me.
Cy Kellett: Judy. Judy. A fascinating conversation, Trent and Judy. I will say this, since it does appear that Judy is not currently there, but thank you for that call, Judy. But it struck me just as the listener, Trent, pro choice means in favor of the choice to abort babies. And I felt like we weren’t closing that circle with Judy.
Trent Horn: Well, and that’s why I think language is so important in this debate. What we’re talking about here, people have accused me of. Well, you’re changing the subject. When we talk about a disputed moral issue, like whether abortion is right or wrong, we have to compare it to an issue where we know what’s right or wrong. To me, abortion is very simple. Abortion is an action that expels or removes an unborn child from the womb with the intention of ending their life. So abortion is about ending the life of a human being who’s in the embryonic or fetal stages of life. So I mean, every, I mean, if you just describe it dispassionately enough, that is what abortion is. You cannot get around that. So I’d say, well, do we ever end born human beings for these reasons and back alley abortions came up a lot in these two hours. And my main argument is clear. We’d never make it legal. So it’s safer for big born people to kill little born people. We never do that with born people.
Caller: No.
Trent Horn: So why should we make it legal? So. So it’s safer for big born people to kill little unborn people? The moral logic just makes no sense to me.