In this clip, Cy Kellett welcomes Tim Staples to discuss Doug’s journey from the Baptist Church to exploring Catholicism. Tim highlights the significance of apostolic succession and the papacy, providing insights into why these beliefs are foundational to the Catholic faith.
Transcript:
Caller: And I grew up exactly like you actually was a youth minister also, as well as worship base player.
Tim Staples: Okay.
Caller: In the free church events. Evangelical free.
Tim Staples: Oh, boy. Yeah. I always. I always laugh at. I mean, I mean, I love. I have many friends. I’ve debated folks who are evangelical free. But I love that the title, Evangelical free. But do you believe in free will? No. But anyway, go ahead.
Caller: Yeah. I broke away from the church when pastor went a little nuts. We. We built several churches and it became a mega church. And he got a giant swell dead and fired all the elders and started his own team. And it was terrible.
Tim Staples: Oh, my goodness.
Caller: Yeah. My wife and I were both on staff, too, so that hurt.
Tim Staples: Wow.
Caller: But then I’ve been searching ever since then, and I ended up at the Orthodox church here in Kellogg for a while.
Tim Staples: That’s a big step in the right direction.
Caller: Yeah.
Tim Staples: : Yes.
Caller: But that didn’t quite cut it. So I’ve been talking to the deacon of the Catholic Church.
Tim Staples: Very good. Yeah. There’s a logical progression there, isn’t there, Doug? I mean, once you see the necessity of apostolic succession, which of course, you have, the necessity of the sacraments, it’s only a matter of time. Because for me, Doug, what was absolutely huge was the papacy. Because I too, Doug, in my odyssey, the Catholic faith, I always joke I was orthodox for a few months. For a couple months. It was like in my Protestant days. I joke. I was Calvinist for about a week. But no, I really was because I had a real natural revulsion toward the papacy. The idea of one man having this kind of authority, that’s just crazy. But the papacy is everywhere in the church Fathers and of course, the biblical text of Matthew 16, as, you know, Luke 20, 29, 32, or Luke 22, 29, 32, John 21, 15, 17, and then the whole book of Acts, especially the first 15 chapters. Peter is everywhere. It’s obvious, and that’s what brought me home. But at any rate, what. What’s on your mind now, Doug?
Caller: I’ve got lots of questions, but I’m just going to settle for one today.
Tim Staples: Okay.
Caller: That’s my first call to you guys. Why did Martin Luther remove books from the Bible? Right, right.
Tim Staples: Yeah, it’s a great question. And Doug, of course, as you know, Luther would later put them back, so to speak. Now, he never actually removed books from the Bible, but he did certainly teach that there were some books that he did not think were inspired. For example, the book of James. But it wasn’t just the Book of James that he had problems with. He had problems with others. But the most obvious reason, Doug, why he had some pretty choice words to say about James telling his followers. Words to the effect of, you can keep it if you want to, but if I had my way, I would throw it into the stove. It’s not, you know, and, and really, ultimately it’s because James 2:24 can’t get any more plain. I mean, when your whole, you know, they say this is the. Well, they don’t just say, Luther himself said that justification by faith alone is the doctrine upon which the church rises or falls. Even the late great Dr. R.C. sproul, who I loved dearly, both before I was Catholic and after I was Catholic, great teacher, but crazy, you know, a five point Calvinist on some of these points. But even R.C. sproul said that the Catholic Church was the true church for the first 1500 years of the Christian era. But the church missed it on justification, lost its authority, Luther revived it and the Protestants revived it because this is the central teaching, justification by faith alone. I mean, it’s incredible that a guy with that kind of mind could fall prey to such an obvious error like that. But Doug, here’s the bottom line. James, chapter 2, verse 24 is problematic if you’re going to honestly say that you believe in justification by faith alone. I mean, at least somebody has to cut us Catholics some slack here and say, can you at least understand why we might have a little problem with justification by faith alone and by that meaning that hope and charity have no place at all in your justification, right? It is faith alone. Good works, right, Hope, charity and so forth have really nothing to do, even though we see such plain verses of scripture like James 2:24, and I’ll quote it, and I know you know it, Doug, we see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. I mean, it’s kind of hard to see how the Bible could make it any plainer. And I’ll tell you, Doug, years ago, when I was in my one year period of argumentation with my interlocutor, Sergeant Matt Duleback, I don’t know if you heard the first part of this broadcast, but I talked about when I was in the Marine Corps in conversation with him, he actually put it to the way I’m putting it out right now, he was the one who said to me, tim, you believe in sola scriptura, the Bible alone, right? And you’re going to tell me you’re going to read this verse. We see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. You’re going to close your Bible and say, man, we must be justified by faith alone because the Bible says we’re justified, not by faith alone. He said, is it possible, Tim, you might have accepted a tradition of men that is not found in the pages of Holy Writ? And if you add to that, Brother, Matthew, chapter 12, verses 36 and 37, where Jesus, if you look at Matthew 12:36, he’s talking about the final judgment, and he says, by your word. This is verse 37. By your words, you will be justified, and by your words, you will be condemned. That’s not faith alone, right? By your words is something you do, something you say that’s more. So you’ve got so many plain texts of Scripture, Doug, and we could go, you know, Galatians, chapter 6, verses 7 through 9, which is another just so obvious, you know, Be not deceived, right? God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man sows, any farmer, Doug knows what sowing is. It’s not with needle and thread, it’s planting seeds, right? Whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap. If a man. And he’s talking about Christians. If a man continues to sow to the flesh, he shall of the flesh reap death. If he continues to sow to the Spirit, he shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Therefore, he says, faint not. Do not be discouraged, he says, but continue. Continue doing what? Continue sowing, Continue working, because you will reap. And I’m not doing an exact quotation here. I’m doing a little bit of interpolation, but this is what the text says. He says, if you faint not, you will obtain, you will acquire eternal life. Because that’s the context here. He is saying, if you continue to sow, you will reap eternal life as your reward. That’s for something you do. And, Doug, we could go on and on here, you know, and I know I’m going beyond your question, but In Romans, chapter 2, verse 6 and 7, St. Paul says, God will reward each man according to his works. To him who continues in good works, his reward shall be glory and corruption and eternal life. Eternal life is a reward for works anyway. But of course, there are works done in him, with him and through him. But the bottom line is when Luther set up his system, which, you know, people say that justification by faith alone is the material principle of the Reformation. I mean, if sola scriptura is the formal principle, justification by faith alone is the. When we say material principle, it means the stuff. It’s the stuff of the Reformation. Right. And sola scriptura is the form. It’s what gives it its form. I think both are deficient. But the point is, Luther sees James 2:24, and it’s like, I’m sorry, that ain’t the word of God, because it’s obviously contrary to what I believe is the word of God. And he was so passionate in his belief that I think he lost his mind, he lost the ability to reason here and think for a moment what you’re saying when you say you can keep James if you want to, but I say toss it into the fire. Oh, my goodness. On what authority are you saying you’re going to toss out a book of the Bible because it doesn’t agree with you? Well, Doug, the Catholic Church doesn’t do that. The Catholic Church says we submit to the word of God, not the other way around. But. I’m sorry, Doug, does that help at all? I get to preaching sometimes.
Caller: Yeah. Yeah, it does.
Tim Staples: Yeah. Great. Yeah.
Caller: I need your prayers, too, that I’m. I’m anxious to move forward in this. And my wife is not thrilled. Friends from the old church are going crazy on me. They’re Calvinists, so.
Tim Staples: Oh, yes. Well, we will pray for you, Doug. While we’ve got listeners listening, we’ll ask our listeners, please pray for Doug as he begins preparations to come into full communion with Catholic Church. God bless you, brother. I. I better do the break.
Cy Kellett: Thank you, Doug. Thanks so much. Right back with more calls from non Catholics for Catholic Answers Live and Tim Staples right after this.