In this clip, host Cy Kellett and Apologist Tom Nash discuss why fish doesn’t “count” as meat in Lent.
Transcript:
Luke Bender: So in Lent, us Catholics aren’t allowed to eat meat on Friday. Yes. However, fish apparently does not count as meat. I was told growing up that some monks made that rule in the 1500s so they could get around having meat without having meat.
Cy Kellett: Yeah, those monks. Yeah, those monks. Yeah, those poverty chest obedience monks. They were like, what can we get away with in this monastery?
Luke Bender: And so I wanted to know why. Why basically Catholics can cheat that rule by having-
Tom Nash: It’s not, it’s not cheating. That’s a prejudice way of asking the question. But why can we eat fish? Thank you, Catholic for talking about how we cheat during Lent. Well, you know, Lent, I mean, for example, fish was considered more the poor man’s food, whereas, you know, chicken, poultry, pork were considered traditionally mean warm blooded meat, as something for festivities and for luxury, though they were associated with that and typically more expensive. Thus the fish was considered a penance in that regard. Now, it’s true, you’ve heard the old joke where the bishop goes out, excuse me, so and so it’s Lent on a Friday. I won’t have the. I can’t have the steak. Please bring the lobster. That’s not what we’re talking about, where somebody substitutes a great, you know, some delicacy of salmon or lobster or whatnot. It was a form of penance.
Cy Kellett: Sometimes I eat salmon on. I’m serious, Tom. Well, because I didn’t know that it was.
Tom Nash: Well, I’m just saying salmon could be. There could be a salmon filet. It doesn’t mean salmon per se.
Luke Bender: Well, that actually kind of brings me to my point here, which is like, okay, fish was the poor man’s meat. Now is it still the poor man’s meat?
Tom Nash: Well, fish sticks are not exactly a delicacy, for example, but it is a tradition of small t. And of course we could go without it altogether. We could go and fast. But this is something, and it is a way, because I myself, for example, like to have chicken salad. I get my chicken breasts and cut them up and cook it. You don’t have to go through the whole recipe. We get it, Tom. Yeah, but I mean, I would prefer to have chicken, but I don’t. And oftentimes I just might not have any meat on a Lenten Friday. But I think the thing is too, and here’s another thing, Luke, is other people say, oh gosh, what about the stuff? Whether it’s abstaining from fish or meat that some people used to call this, oh, wait a second, it used to be all Sundays. It was a mortal sin. If you ate. And now it’s just Sundays during, excuse me, Fridays, all Fridays and then Fridays during Lent. And the point of that is that similar in the Old Covenant the problem wasn’t because eating certain shellfish or whatever was wrong, but because it was associated with the pagans. So go he gave that prescription to them. Now Jesus lifts that. We see it in Mark 7 where he declares all foods clean. We also see it in Acts 10 where he’s talking about to go to the unclean Gentiles. He uses unclean food, but he’s called it clean. So the issue there was disobedience. Not that these are things created by God if you ate them. The sin in the Old Covenant was disobedience to God, not because a shell, not something inherently bad about precise. And so it is precisely. Thank you. So it is with a hamburger on a. In the New Covenant it is the binding and loosing power which the church has been given by God to help people to grow in holiness. And part of our growing in holiness is being obedient to lawful authority. And even you could say, well so and so is this or that bishop or priest. It’s like look, we follow their God given authority even if you might have some things that you would recommend they improve upon. So this is in Padre Pio was great in that regard. As many gifts as he had, he always was obedient to his superiors. And this is important. So yeah, I mean the Luke I think has a follow up though. I mean I’m. I’m just thinking to briefly get it out of the way, this rumor about this being added in the 1500s. There’s no this goes to early church. It’s definitely before then. And it’s not something. You know, there’s other things too. Oh my gosh, they were in the cahoots with the fish industry. I mean could you talk about. I mean there could be people who can make money off of whichever. But again this is how it developed and I think you’re going to find criticism like I always like to say to some of our Protestant brothers and sisters who will talk about this or that from this or that century. And I said and where was your charitably stated systematically lived faith as a Presbyterian, as a Lutheran existing? It didn’t. Which points out that they weren’t there. Which points out that all the first Protestant so called reformers were themselves Catholic. Martin Luther, John Calvin, Zwingli, Bucer, several of them priests. And so this points out like discontinuity. We necessarily have a discontinuity for 1400 years, which indicates then the gates of hell have prevailed against the Church. We don’t say the Church has always had the holiest leaders, but rather we have the divine king who safeguards us. And that’s why we exist for 2000 years. Otherwise we’d have been out of business. And that’s why we obey. That’s why we obey when the Church says don’t eat. Precisely because. Because. Yeah. And of course, no one’s. There’s nothing to say you not bound to do evil. No. And the Church isn’t binding someone to do evil. If a priest or a bishop ever God forbid, said something terrible for someone to do. No, you don’t have to obey him because he’s a priest. Rather you would say, father, you need to repent and go to confession, as absurd as that might sound. But we, you know, we’re talking about lawful application moral of moral authority given by God.
Luke Bender: Well, then my last bit on that is, do you predict potentially in the future if, like fish used to be poor man’s meat and now that we have salmon and lobster, so on, do you think in the future there might be a modification where it’s just no meat in general, including no fish?
Tom Nash: Well, that’s an interesting question, Luke, because it is a discipline and disciplines by their nature can change versus dogma, doctrine, you know, unchangeable. So that’s a possibility I don’t necessarily anticipated. I just. It’s, it’s. Yeah. I think the thing is too typically when you see like a Knights of Columbus, you’re talking cod or catfish or something, it’s usually lesser expensive fish. And I think what’s great about those Knights of Columbus gatherings. Yeah, I think what’s great what I like tilapia. But the great thing about those gatherings is they’re typically not expensive. They’re family oriented. And it’s a good way to have fellowship while people have otherwise been maybe fasting or doing something. So I think that’s a great thing that the Knights of Columbus do.
Cy Kellett: I feel bad that I ate salmon, though. I didn’t eat.
Tom Nash: There’s salmon and there’s salmon. It’s like there’s steak and there’s steak, as our friend Jeff would say. Jeff will say, I don’t want to eat too great of a steak because then everything else is let down. This is why we always seek after bread or meat which is non perishable, namely the Holy Eucharist, our Lamb of God, Luke, by the blood divinity. It’s nice to get you on camera
Luke Bender: for the salmon thing. Remember, Lent is the season of repentance Cy.
Cy Kellett: Oh thank you, Luke. Next time, I’ll just have the coleslaw. All right. We’ll be right back. Tom Nash, our guest Ask Me Anything on Catholic Answers Live.