In this engaging clip, Chris Check welcomes Tim Staples to explore the complex topic of speaking in tongues within the Church. Tim shares his personal journey from a Pentecostal background to his current understanding, highlighting the diversity of beliefs among Church Fathers and the importance of discernment regarding this spiritual gift.
Transcript:
Chris: What does the Catholic Church teach about speaking in tongues? Why can’t everyone speak in tongues? Do we reject the notion that speaking in tongues is necessary for salvation? If we do, why do we reject that?
Tim: Right, right. Well, first of all, you know, this.
Chris: Is what is speaking in tongues. Yeah, I should have started with that.
Tim: Right. Well, we can start with the Catechism of the Catholic Church in section 2003, which acknowledges tongues as a legitimate gift, along with the gift of miracles from 1 Corinthians 14:12 and 14. So the Church has acknowledged magisterially the existence of tongues, but the Church has never given us a teaching on what tongues is.
And so you have a variety of beliefs. Among the fathers and doctors of the Church, there are some, a few fathers who did not believe that tongues was a valid gift for our time, but it was only a gift in the first century. That’s a minority opinion, but it’s there. And the Church has never said it was false.
Thomas Aquinas teaches on tongues and has it as a valid gift. But again, what is tongues? Now, I happen to come from a Pentecostal background. As you know, I was raised Southern Baptist, and we did not believe in tongues. I became Assembly of God at the age of 18, and I got into the whole Charismatic movement.
And I will tell you, brother, I spoke in tongues. But you know what? I don’t believe it was the gift of the Holy Spirit, honestly. Now, I’m not saying that everybody who speaks in tongues is false. I’m just telling you mine was not real. And I spoke in quote, unquote, tongues for years.
But anyway, the point is we have to be careful. Yes, it is the consensus in the Church. Again, Catechism Section 2003, it’s a valid gift, but the Church leaves the door open. There was a document from the then CDF, now DDF, that tossed out some ideas about tongues and how there may be an application of tongues for a particular time, namely our time, that may well be a sort of different manifestation than what was in the past.
I mean, this is wild stuff. And again, this is not something that the Catholic is bound to give a sense of the intellect and will to, because the Church has never bound us to it. But you have to acknowledge, Chris, that with just the sheer numbers of Catholics, some, you know, I know so many, our friend Father Mitch Pacwa, you know, who has been a charismatic for many, many years.
You know, I am certainly not going to say that what they experience is not valid because I don’t have the authority to do that. Only the Church has the authority to do that. If the Church were to say, guess what? This no longer functions in our day and age, well, then they could bind me to that. But the Church hasn’t.
Chris: Father Mitch Pacwa is a man of extraordinary intellect and learning.
Tim: Oh, my goodness.
Chris: I mean, he’s not a charlatan on the street corner.
Tim: Absolutely. But then you ask the question, though, what is tongues? And among, again, even fathers and doctors, there are disagreements. Because is tongues, for example, a real language? Thomas Aquinas says yes. In fact, glossolalia, the term itself simply means language. That’s what it means in Greek.
And so when St. Paul is talking about speaking in tongues, he’s talking about speaking in a language. Now, some will argue, but he also talks about, I could speak with the tongues of men and of angels. So is there an angel language, too? And could it be a language that’s not spoken on this earth?
Well, I would argue no. Thomas Aquinas would argue no, because, again, it is a real language that somebody needs to be able to understand. So, no, it’s not if you’re speaking in gibberish. And that’s what basically I did. I was in the context of a very fired-up Assembly of God community.
And they all get around you and lay hands on you and say, brother, just speak out whatever comes to your mind. And that’s it. That’s the Holy Spirit. And they’re all doing the Hamdullah shakatida bakan all around you. Oh, I just did it, didn’t I? And they’re doing all this stuff. And so, you know, you just kind of do it.
Tim: And then it’s a very emotional experience.
Tim: It is, it is. And it’s manipulative. It was for me, and I did it for many, many years. But upon my conversion to the Catholic faith and a deeper research into this, I had to conclude what I had was not a gift of the Holy Spirit. It was emotional manipulation and such.
And the Church has always cautioned against this, including Pope St. Paul VI, who wrote his famous letter to the charismatics in 1968 after the manifestation happened at the University of Notre Dame. Pope Paul praised the movement, but he also issued some caveats. Be careful. Whoa.
And that’s exactly when you read St. Paul VI, it’s the same thing that another St. Paul did. In 1 Corinthians 14, he warns about the same thing, the idea that there were all kinds of things going on. People were speaking out of turn and claiming they had no control.
And St. Paul corrects that and says, no, the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. He says there’s no such thing as a gift of the Holy Spirit that possesses you, and you, just like in a demonic possession, are out of control. That’s not God, says St. Paul.
And he also, you know, key principles that both St. Paul VI and St. Paul the Apostle would warn about with tongues is one, no, the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. But then he also, in verse, I think that’s 37 and 38, he also says that if anyone thinks himself a spiritual man or a prophet and does not listen to the things which we say, he is not to be listened to.
Right? So St. Paul also says that the prophet and the miracle worker must be in submission to the apostolic authority, and that is the bishops in union with the Pope. And of course, Paul speaking as an apostle, but he makes that very clear. And he goes on to say, if they don’t listen to him, then they are not to be listened to at all.
So they lose their claim to any sort of spiritual authority when they don’t listen to the apostolic gift.
Chris: Tim, that is a thorough answer. And you know what? It didn’t go on too long. I feel bad that I said that now that your answers go on too long. I thought that’s what you were going to dispute there.