In this clip, Cy Kellett welcomes Tom Nash to discuss the controversial teachings of Vatican II regarding salvation and non-Catholic churches. Tom clarifies the Church’s position on ecumenism and the role of valid sacraments, addressing the caller’s concerns about perceived contradictions in the council’s teachings.
Transcript:
Caller: For context, I recently accepted the position that the chair Peter is vacant.
Caller: Wow.
Cy Kellett: Okay, so let me just explain that. I just want people, because I don’t know that everybody listening will know what that means. What you just said, that you do not believe that Leo XIV is a valid pope. And do you have a last valid pope in mind?
Caller: Pius the trophthal, Pius xi 12.
Cy Kellett: Okay, go ahead, Sam. Thank you for helping make that clear. Go ahead with your question.
Caller: Yeah, I’m wondering why it seems like almost every defense of Vatican II and when I say Vatican ii, not just the Council itself, but the implementation and everything coming out of Rome, it seems like every defense feels like gaslighting.
Caller: Could you be more specific as how
Caller: you think Vatican, for example, and Unitactus Red Z Grazio number three says false churches are means of salvation. And then when you look at apologists trying to defend that, it’s like, what is, what do you mean false churches are means of salvation? Like, oh well, they have valid baptism. And it’s like, well that doesn’t mean good means of salvation. That means if they convert to the Catholic Church, then the baptism is helpful then. And it. And that defense is denying the Council of Florence when it says that the sacraments of heretics are not self sufficient if they don’t convert.
Tom Nash: Well, we need to make a few things. First of all, you mentioned Unitatis regente Gratio. That’s the Decree on Ecumenism for Vatican II, which in number three makes very clear that everyone who is connected to the body of Christ that is called to come into full communion with the Church. This is reaffirmed in Catechism 8:46,848, which cites the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Ltd. Genesis 14:16. In addition, with regard to you saying false churches, it talks about people. First of all regarding churches and the Church is very clear. Ecclesial communities are those who would be Protestants, who might have some sacraments, those who would have validly ordained bishops would only be the orthodox. So those would be churches. And so insofar as they have elements that come from and are ordered towards full communion, that they can be used similar to how the Council of Trend talks about the baptism of desire. Now remember, as you know well brother, and this is pre Vatican II and going back with Pius IX in one of his sickles, quanto confitia morereri, which in the 1800s, mid-1800s, he points out the reality that there can be such a thing as invincible ignorance. We don’t presume upon it Vatican II Makes that clear in Lumen Gentium 16, that we need to be very vigilant. But there’s three components to a mortal sin. And it’s not simply that somebody may not be Catholic. Now, we don’t presume that anybody who’s not Catholic is saved. We do believe that God, whether it’s through baptism or desire, or as only God can do through the elements he’s given that all salvation comes through the Church because God has ordained it that way. So properly understood, Vatican II stands up and is inconsistent with the Church. In addition, you mentioned the Last valid Pope, 1958.
Caller: How.
Tom Nash: I encourage you, brother. Look up the word sedevicantis. I know you can spell that. Look up my last name, Nash. I deal with this whole thing and the whole thing that people believe that Cardinal Seri was the rightful elected Pope at that time, but even Cardinal Seri himself did not, you know, as if he stepped down or stepped away or was cowed into silence. And it’s like, well, wait a second, if he’s the man, then why would he walk away from it? And people only started saying that years later. And Cardinal Cyri himself submitted to both John XXIII and also to Paul VI and was trying to become the Pope in 1978, both conclaves. So that doesn’t work out the whole state of encounterism. I think we need to realize that God, as we see in today’s Bible passage, you can have difficulties in the Church, but God is sustaining his church because it’s Christ’s Church. And ultimately you’ll have the wheat separated from the wheat. But the gates of hell have not and do not prevail against the Church. Otherwise, how do you get a new Pope?
Cy Kellett: Sam, this is a fascinating conversation to me, I must say. I am aware that I’d want the listener who’s not well versed in this to know what the two of you are talking about. So I might interrupt to make that clear.
Caller: Right.
Cy Kellett: But I’d be happy to hear your response to Tom.
Caller: Yeah, so it just feels like, oh, everybody’s cool but Chad, let’s go. Let’s go pray in a mosque and
Caller: no, brother, no, brother, let’s let him finish.
Caller: So go ahead.
Caller: No, outside of the Church, but Protestants are cool. We’re going to have a lady sheepish giving blessing at the tomb of Saint, but no, no, don’t be a child.
Tom Nash: Well, I respond to this. First of all, our brothers and sisters and the priests and bishops of the Society of St. Pius X are not themselves sedevacantes. Very clearly. So they recognize the Pope and his.
Caller: I gotcha lumping.
Tom Nash: All right. But in addition to that, Brother, I would say that even look at the Code of Canon Law 1983, canon number 844 makes clear that only in emergencies should a Protestant person and they must express the faith of the Church that they could receive sacraments. So it’s no willy nilly on Protestants becoming Catholic. And that’s why, I mean receiving the sacraments of the Eucharist in particular, we don’t want them to eat and drink judgment upon themselves. I know you recognize that possibility because of 1 Corinthians 11, where St. Paul talks about that, including people who have died. So the Church is very clear on that. Now, if you have some priest who’s less than vigilant, that’s another matter. But the Church’s teaching is clear. And again, as I say, Society of St. Pius X, you know, Archbishop Lefebvre recognized all documents of Vatican ii. Now can they be distorted? Yes, they can, as can other documents of the Church. So I would say, brother, hang in there. And I would encourage you, if nothing else, to not consider the Pope to be not the Pope, but that Christ maintains his church. The gates of hell will not prevail against it. Otherwise, we got a real problem of how do we come back for the Pope and who has the authority to make a new Pope. I would encourage you at the very least, and I wouldn’t normally do this, but since you said it, sedative, to try to connect with some of society Saint Pius X locally, if you have them. That might be useful for you.
Caller: Sam, I really wish this.
Caller: Actually, I used to attend it.
Caller: Well, keep talking to brother. Keep that conversation going, Sam.
Cy Kellett: And Sam, I want you to call back. I see that I have another call. It’s an important call and I don’t want to make this person miss their opportunity.
Caller: Can seniors get married in the church
Caller: even though they’re not able to have children?
Caller: Absolutely, Michelle, absolutely.