In this clip, Cy Kellett welcomes Karlo Broussard to discuss the role of priests in Catholicism. Karlo explains how the priesthood is understood in light of Scripture and addresses common objections from Protestant perspectives.
Transcript:
Cy Kellett: David, thanks for the call. Go ahead with, Well, I keep saying go ahead with your question, but I guess I should ask you, why don’t you think Catholicism makes sense?
Caller: I would be defined as what the Catholic Church would call Protestant, although I’m protesting very little. My thought is simple. It’s just simply that Jesus in Scripture is described as our only high priest. He’s it. So we go. He’s the only person we go through for the forgiveness of sins. And it seems to me that Catholicism has set up a bunch of men, intermediaries, like, I got to go to the priest to get full forgiveness. But. But Hebrews is real clear that without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins. The shedding of the blood could have only been done by Christ himself. So the earthly priests offer, me nothing additional or, anything else. I need. Jesus is it. That’s why the Catholic Church doesn’t make sense. And add to that, you know, they pray through other people like Mary, instead of praying directly to Jesus. I’m not saying they don’t pray to Jesus. I’m saying they add on to the relationship with Jesus other things. That’s kind of the basic premise.
Karlo Broussard: So it is true, the Bible affirms that Jesus is our high priest and there is no priesthood apart from Jesus Christ. But consider this, David. Even St. Peter himself in First Peter, chapter two, verses five and nine, reveals to us, inspired by the Holy Spirit, that there are priests other than Jesus himself, namely you and I as Christians, believers in Jesus Christ. Check it out. First Peter 2, 4, 5 and 9. We are the royal priesthood that is the new Israel of God, even though Jesus is the one priest. So just because the Bible says Jesus is our one priest, it doesn’t follow from that that there are no priests who participate in that one priesthood of Jesus. So at least we can see Peter saying there are some others who can be considered priests participating in the one priesthood of Christ and not taking away from it, but actually establishing it and making it present here on earth. And that’s you and me. So you pray for me, I pray for you. We’re actually exercising that priestly ministry via intercessory prayer, which of course gets to your second point, because St. Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit in 1 Timothy 2:1, 2, encourages and exhorts us to have mutual Christian intercession. And that’s precisely because we are priestly members of Jesus’s one priesthood, exercising intercessory prayer for each other. And that intercessory prayer doesn’t take away from Jesus because it’s in and through Jesus. Now, similarly, from the Catholic view, David, the ministerial priests are not priests apart from the one high priest, Jesus Christ. But like we Christians, they are participating in that one priesthood of Jesus Christ, but in a different way and in a higher way. Now, of course, that’s subject for debate. We would have to talk about that and give the evidence as to whether there is a hierarchical priesthood over and above the universal priesthood of you and me as baptized Christians in 1st Peter 2, 5, 9. But at least you can see that the line of argumentation that you were proposing here wouldn’t hold water because we are all priests as Christians, even though Jesus is the one priest. We as Christians are all intercessors even though 1 Timothy 2, 5 says Jesus is the one mediator or intercessor. And so the principle is participation. Now, in my book, Meeting the Protestant Challenge, I have a chapter on the New Testament ministerial priesthood where I provide several lines of biblical evidence to justify the Catholic understanding that there is an actual ministerial priesthood participating in the one priesthood of Christ that serves,
Karlo Broussard: Priesthood of the baptized, that is baptized Christians. And that’s John 20:23, where Jesus says, if you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained. Associating the forgiveness of sins with his, ordained ministers at the apostles reveals that they are priests. At the Last Supper, he says, do this. The Greek word poeo, which means offer sacrifice for Jesus to command the apostles to offer sacrifice, and tells that they are priests, because that’s the role of a priest is, that is to offer sacrifice. So that’s how I would begin to sketch a response to that.
Cy Kellett: David, you asked about the priesthood. Carlo gave, the Catholic answer. Just wanted to come back to you and see, if that was convincing to you or if you wanted to continue the conversation.
Caller: Well, no, I love that he hit a lot. He actually hit on one of my favorite, verses 1st Peter 2, verse 9. You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood. Yeah. So my point, of course, my point in the call was that Jesus is the only high priest who can forgive sins. But. Okay, I think I really love Carlos answer because it did hit on the fact that we all, every one of us, ministerial role, we are all priests. And then let me add to that James 5:16 says, Therefore confess your sins to each other and for each other so that you may be saved. No, it doesn’t say saved so you may be healed. I think the Catholic Church has done is said we’re only going to appoint certain priests. You guys are lay people. Don’t confess to each other. Confess to us only. And there’s only some priests that can help you absolve you of your sins. And what I’m saying is only Jesus’s blood can. Forgiveness can forgive us of our sins. And we can confess our sins to each other for healing, not for salvation, because salvation comes from Christ alone. So that’s my take on, I think the Catholic Church has made a role that doesn’t exist. Okay.
Karlo Broussard: Yeah. So, and notice, notice the assumed premise there is that you do not think there is any evidence that there are some within the mystical body of Christ that Christ wills to have an authority to administer the blood of Jesus and thereby the forgiveness of sins in a special way. And so that’s an assumption that we would debate. That’s where the debate lies. So my point before the break was just simply to say, just because Jesus is the high priest, it doesn’t follow that there are no priests. That’s initially what I thought you were saying, but now you’re sort of specifying just because Jesus is the high. Because Jesus is the one high priest who, and who alone can forgive sins. Therefore, there is no ministerial priesthood who can forgive sins, which is the Catholic claim. But notice that assumption is that only Jesus can forgive sins. Now, in some sense we agree with you, David, insofar as the Jesus is the source of the forgiveness of sins. That is absolutely true. And we profess that 100% as Catholics, any ministerial priest, that we say forgive sins, by no means do we intend to say that forgiveness is coming from him. The ultimate source of the forgiveness of sins is Jesus Christ, merited and purchased for us through the blood shed on the cross. But the question then becomes, how does Christ’s will to apply the blood of his cross and apply the forgiveness of sins? Your view is that there is no ministerial priesthood to be an instrument of that application. That blood is applied to us initially when we first have faith, and after that, that’s it. It’s not applied to us anymore, or maybe just confession, but on your own, and then the blood of Christ is applied. The Catholic view is that no Christ actually established this hierarchical priesthood among the people of God. That would be an instrument in virtue of which Christ wills to apply the blood of his cross and thereby the forgiveness of sins for any sins committed after initially, the sacrament of baptism. Now, what is the evidence for that? Well, that’s where the conversation has to go. And we could talk about that and just. I’m sure you’ve heard of John 20:23 before, where Christ tells the apostles, if you forgive the sins of any, they’re forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they’re retained. That’s a classic text that Catholics have appealed to to justify the claim that the apostles were instituted by Christ, were ordained by Christ to have that specific function, to forgive sins by the power of Jesus Christ. And of course, their successors, the bishops, would also have that power. Now, that debate, unfortunately, David, goes beyond what we can talk about here on. But if you have any questions about John 20:23, because there are a variety of Protestant counter responses to our interpretation of that text, I would recommend. And maybe Sy, we can send him a copy of my book if David’s interested, meeting the Protestant response, where I have a whole chapter just on John 20:23 and going through the various Protestant alternative readings of that text and showing why I think they do not succeed, but that the Catholic reading does succeed. That Jesus gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins not of their own power, but in his name and by his power, and thereby participating in a unique way in the one high priesthood of Jesus Christ to apply the blood of Jesus Christ and thereby administer the forgiveness of sins.
Cy Kellett: I’m just so. I love this conversation. I’m very grateful for it, David. it’s wonderful to have a knowledgeable, interlocutor to discuss these things. Ah, it’s striking to me too that I do think we can agree wholeheartedly that there is, apart from Jesus, there is no forgiveness. Apart from Jesus, there is no salvation. those are things we want to be very quick to agree with. But, let me give you a last word, David, if you’d like.
Caller: Well, again, I love that verse. We do participate, of course, I would argue that we all do participate on some role. That’s why we’re of course asked by Jesus to evangelize. Right. So I’m not discounting our participation, but I also don’t discount the straightforward, balance with like Romans 10:9 says, if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Karlo Broussard: Amen, brother.
Caller: It’s a confession of faith. It doesn’t say, oh, and by the way, you got to get this sanctioned by the church. They’ve got to do this little ritual to apply the blood properly. There’s none of that.
Karlo Broussard: Well, St. Peter, actually. St. Peter. St. Peter actually does talk about a specific ritual to apply the blood of Jesus. In 1st Peter 3. 21, he says, Baptism. Now, same word, saves you. So the ritual washing of baptism in Peter’s mind also saves. And as the Catholic Church says, it’s both. And we have to have faith that confession of faith, that gift of faith is given to us initially in and through that ritual that Peter says actually saves us. Of course, it’s not the ritual itself, it’s Jesus saving us, but in and through the ritual. So that’s at least one ritual that brings about salvation. Baptism and so the Catholic claim is just like, okay, so after baptism, when we sin, does Christ will to apply the forgiveness of sins in some other ritualistic or unique way? And of course, that would be the confession of sins to those ordained ministers in the first century. That would have been the apostles, and for after them, their successors, the bishops. And I’m sorry, I know, sir, you had said David would have the last word there. Oh, no, I apologize for that.
Cy Kellett: I didn’t mean it.
Karlo Broussard: But, David, I do appreciate your good spirit, brother, in chatting it up with us.