In this clip, Cy Kellett welcomes Karlo Broussard to discuss the nature of salvation and the role of faith and works. Karlo explains how Catholic theology addresses the concerns raised by the caller about justification and sanctification, emphasizing the importance of God’s grace in the process.
Transcript:
Caller: I don’t think. It’s not about being Roman Catholic. It’s not about being Baptist. It’s not about any of these things. What I think about is that salvation is by Christ alone and his work, his work on the cross. Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and life. No one comes to the Father but by me. He also says in second Timothy, 2, 5, there’s one God. There’s one mediator between God, man, the man Christ Jesus. So I think that the Roman Catholics, they. They intertwine and they mix together, justification and sanctification. I think there is no. There’s no initial salvation and final salvation. There is just salvation. The moment that you are saved, which is completely and solely done by the work of God, has absolutely nothing to do with us. Even you were dead in your trespasses. Romans 3, 10, 18 says, no one seeks God. No one, no one does anything. The Holy Spirit has to rejuvenate your heart and do the initial faith to begin with. The God who saves you is the same God that keeps you saved. And as far as works go, yes, the Holy Spirit is working inside of you, and you will work on your sanctification with the Holy Spirit for the rest of your life, which has absolutely nothing to do with, with Your justification and God’s work on the cross. As John MacArthur, R.C. sproul and Voddie Baucham put it very plainly, if I could lose my salvation, I have. If I have anything to do with my salvation, I am preaching another gospel, and I am not saved. The thief on the cross didn’t need baptism, didn’t need anything there. When he got to heaven, they asked him, talk about your justification, your sanctification. I don’t know about any of the things. And he said, well, why are you here? He said, because the man on the middle cross said that I could come. It is so completely the work of God. If there’s anything to do about my daily work and sanctification, I would on a daily basis lose my salvation. If I do not believe that, the God who saves is the same God who can keep you saved, then to me that sounds like a. Kind of like a wimpy God. All.
Cy Kellett: Right, let’s get Carlo to respond. Carlo, what do you say?
Karlo Broussard: Tom, I agree 100% that if my salvation was dependent upon me, then God would be a wimpy God. And if he were a wimpy God, he wouldn’t be God. And in the Catholic theological system, Tom, that is a worry that we do not have to entertain or have in the Catholic theological system, precisely because, no work of our, own, power and of ourselves on a natural level can in any way contribute to our salvation in the sense of bringing it about. If God were to leave us, Tom, to our own natural power in doing natural things, then we would not attain salvation. Being a good person, Tom, does not bring about salvation. That gift comes solely in and through Jesus. This is why, Tom, we believe what St. Paul preaches in First Corinthians 12, that we have to become a member of the mystical body of Christ. We have to be united to Christ in order to attain salvation. Apart from Christ, there is no salvation. And that union with Christ, so Paul says, comes about in First Corinthians 12:13. Through baptism, we are baptized into the body of Christ. And in virtue of that mystical union with Christ and God’s grace living within our souls, we are thereby, quote, unquote, justified. Which when we speak of our good works, we speak of them insofar as they are manifestations of love for God and God, the Father, God, the Son, God, the Holy Spirit, which are themselves effects of grace. As Philippians 2:13 says, God works in us to intend and to act for us, to intend to do something that’s loving for him and to actually do the thing that’s loving for him. Which brings me to the other point that you pointed out, Tom. You said you drew a hard distinction between justification and sanctification. You said Catholics, as I remember you correctly, intertwine or mix justification and sanctification. Well, I’ll propose a biblical passage to you that would seem to contradict your division or distinction between justification and sanctification and them two having nothing to do with each other. but in Romans 6, 7, when he says we are freed from sin in the baptismal death that he just talked about in verses three through four, the Greek, there is dikaio. The Greek verb is dikaio, which literally translates we are justified from sin,
Caller: Yes, yes, I, I’m very familiar with Galatians 5, 24 and 2nd Corinthians 5, 17, and Romans chapter 6, verses 6, and Romans chapter 6, verses, verses 11. when you talk about baptism, my understanding is the moment you get saved, the baptism of the Holy Spirit takes place. Place. Now, if you’re talking about that, that’s one thing, but if you’re talking about that you have to, that water baptism is anyway involved in your salvation, then yeah, I completely disagree with that. Water baptism is the outward sign of an inner conviction. It’s something that we are commanded to do and that we should do, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the working of God in our salvation.
Karlo Broussard: Okay, Tom, here’s a question for you. I’m not asking this to play Gotcha. I’m, honestly inquiring. How do you reconcile that view of baptism which you just articulated has nothing to do with our salvation with First Peter 3, 21 where Peter says baptism now saves you.
Caller: Okay. Once again, you got the, the, baptism of the Holy Spirit and you’ve got water baptism.
Karlo Broussard: Yep. So I understand that. Peter, Peter, when Peter.
Caller: Okay, when you become saved. All right, when you become saved, that, that, that is a instantaneous thing. That, that, that, that is immediate. Oh, that is. That, that is immediate. That isn’t, that isn’t a multiple step process. As far as that goes, the, the only person that knows that you’re saved is. That’s, that’s between you and God. But once you’re saved, you’re saved. If you were saved and saved, I think that when the moment you’re saved, the Holy Spirit immediately comes to dwell inside of you. I think that’s instantaneous and I think
Karlo Broussard: We agree with that.
Caller: You are, you are saved eternally. If you were to die five seconds later, you’re still saved.
Karlo Broussard: Okay. Yeah, so, yeah, so there’s, a few different things. So in response tomorrow, when I posed the question about St. Peter, you seem to have implied in your response that Peter was talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit which the apostles received on the day of Pentecost. And with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit to go and preach the gospel message in all of the various tongues. Now, that’s a, fair counter. That’s, an alternative exegesis, 1st Peter 3.
Caller: 21.
Karlo Broussard: But Tom, as I point out in my book, St. Peter clearly is referring to water baptism in 1st Peter 3. 21, precisely because he draws a parallel between baptism and the waters of the flood that saved Noah and his family. He says, just as the waters saved Noah and his family, so too now baptism saves you not as an external washing, which would imply he’s talking about water baptism, because water is being poured. And that would seem to lead people to think it’s an external washing. He says, rather, it’s an appeal to God for a clean conscience, clear conscience, which entails an interior renewal. And so Peter clearly has water baptism in mind in 1st Peter 3 in light of the preceding and subsequent context. And so therefore, we would still have to try and reconcile Peter’s statement that baptism does pertain to our salvation because he says water baptism saves us. How does it save us? That’s a good question. We could further pursue and then reconcile that with your statement that baptism has nothing to do with our salvation. So if we were to go with the biblical portrait, Tom, we. We would have to go with St. Peter on that, and not that baptism has nothing to do with our salvation. Now, when you talked about salvation being instantaneous and immediate, in one sense we can agree we’re on the same page in that initial stage of salvation, when the gift of salvation is granted unto us, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within our hearts. I’ll Even quote Romans 5. 5 with you, Tom, where St. Paul says how God pours forth his love within our hearts, that is instantaneous, there is an inner renewal. To quote St. Paul in 2nd Corinthians 5. 17, we become a new creation in Christ. We believe that wholeheartedly. Now, Tom, where we disagree is your claim that there is no other aspect of our salvation like a process going all the way until death. And that’s where we would disagree, because not only do we have that initial stage, but actually, Tom, in First Corinthians 1:18, St. Paul uses the present participle, he who is being saved, indicating an ongoing present dimension. And then, like Matthew 10:22, Jesus says, he who perseveres until the end will be saved. And of course, we have all of the final judgment imagery of sheep entering into heaven on account of the good works that they would do in order to imply that there is a final aspect of our salvation where we receive the inheritance promised to us when we are initially saved. And then finally, Tom, you brought up once saved, always saved, the eternally secure doctrine. And of course, that’s something that’s worthy of conversation. I don’t know if we have time to go back and forth here, Tom, on that particular issue, which is definitely worth talking through, but I’m going to save that for maybe, perhaps another time. Tom, I would