In this clip, Cy Kellett welcomes Trent Horn to discuss the nature of sacraments and their role in salvation. Trent continues with details on how grace is received through these sacraments and the importance of Christ’s authority in the Church. Tune in for a thought-provoking conversation that challenges common beliefs!
Transcript:
Trent Horn: Why aren’t you Catholic?
Caller: Well, I believe that speaking on truth, there can only be one truth. Correct. Either Protestantism or Catholicism has the truth of the gospel. Correct. And we have entirely separate Gospels. Correct.
Trent Horn: What do you mean by the term gospel? Do you mean a particular book that purports to be the life of Christ or the saving message of salvation that’s
Caller: preached, as in how we’re saved? Okay, so you, you believe that grace is infused over time through the sacraments, Correct?
Trent Horn: Yes. Sanctifying grace is something that is received through the sacraments. It leaves an indelible mark in baptism and confirmation, though it is also received in. In Christ, in the Eucharist. Yes.
Caller: Right. So as you are completing these, just a list of things to do that the Catholic Church gives you. Do you. Do you think that God, like, owes you something because of it?
Trent Horn: Oh, do I think that by receiving the sacraments, God owes me his grace?
Caller: Yeah.
Trent Horn: No, not at all. The Church teaches that no one can merit the graces of salvation, but by their own actions. No. No one can do that. The grace that God gives us is his gift to freely bestow upon us. But we cooperate. When we cooperate with God’s grace, though when we he has given us a means to receive his grace, then we can have moral certainty that we have received it. Just as you might say as a Protestant, that by making an act of faith, you don’t earn salvation, but you’ve cooperated with God to receive it. We would say the same thing about receiving God’s grace in the sacraments when we’re baptized, when we receive Christ in the Eucharist, or when we seek out God in the sacrament of confession. So we don’t earn it of our own merits. It’s something God freely gives us. But he’s promised us that through the sacraments, these are the means he’s instituted for us to partake of his very divine life, as 2nd Peter 1:4 says. How is that as a helpful clarification?
Caller: I see what you’re saying, but so aren’t these sacraments only true if the Church truly was established by Jesus?
Trent Horn: Yeah. Well, we do believe that Christ instituted all seven of the sacraments. And so if the Church was not instituted by Christ, then it would not have Christ teaching authority. It could still be the case that some of the sacraments are valid even if the Church does not have Christ teaching authority. So, for example, Catholics believe that Protestant baptism, any baptism that is done with the proper form, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and with the intention of the Church is valid. So we recognize almost all Protestant baptisms, for example, and then the Church also recognizes the sacraments of the Eastern Orthodox. We just recognize that they’re not in full communion with the Church because they don’t recognize the Pope. So to answer your question, actually you could have valid sacraments even if your Church wasn’t established by Jesus Christ. We believe that of the ecclesial communities that came from the Reformation, like you as a Protestant, as long as you use the Trinitarian formula, odds are you have valid baptism, for example.
Caller: Okay. So can you see from my side though that since I have studied the Bible my for a while, that I would have to be shown some pretty serious evidence for such a claim as to say our tradition is equal to the authority of Scripture. That’s a bold claim. And I just, it worries me that if that claim isn’t true, then the interpretations aren’t. I can’t consider them correct. And therefore, if it’s by the common interpretation that I have always seen, okay, then honestly, a lot of them are against Scripture. Do you see what I’m saying?
Trent Horn: Yeah. So I guess, Sam, where I might go with our discussion that you’re looking for? Where is the evidence for the divine authority of the Church’s sacred tradition or the Catholic Church’s magisterium in order to pass the evidential bar you may be putting forward for that? I want to make sure that it’s a fair standard all around. So what has convinced you that the particular 27 books of the New Testament have divine authority for you as a Christian? How have those 27 books of the New Testament passed the bar? Because that answer might help me show where sacred tradition in the magisterium passed the bar as well.
Caller: Well, the Scriptures claim to be the word of God, first of all. And second of all, if you look at all the Church fathers quotes, they are all quoting the New Testament. It’s not as if the New Testament wasn’t in circulation by 100 AD for example. Do you see what I’m saying? So for you to claim that the Catholic Church put together the Bible and therefore they own the Bible, therefore they can only have the only interpretation. I think it’s dangerous.
Trent Horn: Well, notice, Sam, I didn’t put forward that argument. I’m just asking you for your standard for holding to what Scripture is and why it has divine authority. Because I’m wondering if I could use those same reasons to justify the Church having that same kind of authority. And two examples you threw out there was that the Bible claims to be the word of God and that the church fathers quote from it. Now I’ll disagree with you about the nature of the canon. We don’t have any evidence before the fourth century of the church fathers recognizing a uniform 27 book. 27 book canon of the New Testament. Some fathers recognize the canonical status of non biblical books. Other books are missing like Hebrews or Revelation. But more, what I, what I would say is that, that those standards, you could kind of apply this to the Catholic Church. Like the Church also makes claims of having Christ’s authority. Like the Bible makes claims. And the church fathers talk about like, especially if you read the 2nd 3rd century church fathers, they don’t ground authority in Scripture. They say things like Saint Ignatius of Antioch doesn’t say follow the Scriptures, he says follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father. So when Catholics and Protestants have these conversations, I just want to make sure that we’re playing with the same standard. I feel like the standards that Protestants use for the authority of Scripture alone, I feel like it’s actually a pretty low standard that the Church could also meet for its own authority. Do you see where I’m coming from here?
Caller: How’s it a low standard if the Bible literally says all scripture is God breathed, therefore it is the. It is. It’s a word of God. Like God can speak to us through his living word.
Caller: Right, But Sam, does the Book of Mormon say that it’s Scripture?
Caller: The Book of Mormon is perverted.
Caller: Okay, so, but, but it does say that it’s scripture.
Caller: Sure.
Trent Horn: Okay, so it can’t just be that a book says that it’s inspired, because any book could say that. So then how do you know that the Bible is the word of God and all doctrine is only found there? Like it has to be more than it just claims it.
Caller: So you right now are actually trying to put down the Bible, correct? Like you’re trying to lower the authority of the Bible? Is that what you’re trying to do? No, I mean, I’m happy to do more research as to why. Exactly.
Trent Horn: Sure. No, I’m not trying to do that. It just seems like when Catholics and Protestants talk about this, it’s like we start with the assumption the Bible is the inspired word of God. Does the Catholic Church cohere with the Bible? But for me it’s like, well, wait a minute, why do we start with that assumption? How are we justified in that? For me, as a Catholic, I feel like I have better grounding for that in the historical evidence for the resurrection, the establishment of an authoritative, hierarchical church and the pronouncements of that church. So I can know with infallible certainty what scripture. What. What is scripture? I’m just trying to. I just don’t like. Sometimes when they’re in these discussions you have the Protestant side almost gets kind of like. Well, it just is assumed and agreed upon without having to make the same defense of its own claims. When a defense is asked for the Catholic Church’s authority. But Protestantism doesn’t have to make a defense of its own authority. That’s the concern I have. So I tell you we have to go to a break here. What I would like to do is stay on the line, give our call screener your email. I will gladly send you a copy of my book, the Case for Catholicism. The first four chapters of that book deal with the question of authority. And I talk about Sola Scriptura and sacred tradition. And you could always read through that and then give me a call back. And we also talk about the canon of scripture in two chapters in that book. So the Case for Catholicism. Sam would love to send that to you. Stay on the line, give our call screening or.