In this clip, Cy Kellett welcomes Brayden Cook to discuss the apparent contradictions between James 2 and Romans 4 regarding justification. Brayden dives into the nuances of faith and works, clarifying how these passages relate to Catholic teaching and Protestant interpretations.
Transcript:
Caller: Basically, in a nutshell, James 2 is justification before men, and Romans 4 is justification before God. Romans 4, 2, 4. If Abraham were justified by works, he have worth the glory, but not before God. For what saith the Scripture? And this is going back to Genesis 15. Abraham believed God, and it his faith, it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now, to him that worketh is not the reward reckon of grace, but of debt. And of course, we’re saved by grace, not by works. Okay, now when you go to James, it seems to say the complete opposite. So the only way to reconcile this thing, and Luther used to go crazy with James too, he couldn’t reconcile it with Romans 4, is that James 2, a man may say he has faith. That doesn’t mean he has faith. Just because this person says they’re a Christian doesn’t mean they’re a Christian. But only God knows the heart. So Romans 4 is the heart. James 2 is the profession of a man.
Brayden Cook: So this is one of the arguments positing from James 2:14, you said, what does it profit my brethren if a man says he has faith but has not works? And so from this passage, you claim, and others often claim, that this is about a purported confession of faith. He doesn’t truly have faith. It’s a faith, a confession of faith that is not genuine.
Caller: Right.
Brayden Cook: But immediately after that sentence, I want to know your thoughts on this. James asks, can faith save him? Not can his purported faith, not his, you know, his, his fake faith, his faith save him. And so in James’s mind, and I also want to point out, you know, in, in certain translations of Scripture, it is often, can his faith save him? But that article is not in the Greek. In the Greek, it is literally, can faith save him, not his faith. But either way, I think it drives home this point that James isn’t talking about a fake faith. In fact, the, the entire context here is about a faith that is working, resulting in salvation. And if, you know, you would, you would think that if this was merely about a justification before man instead of in the sight of God, it wouldn’t have that sort of salvific element in it.
Caller: Right?
Brayden Cook: The entire argument hinges on the question, you know, can a dead faith, can a faith without works save him? Not a, you know, a pretend faith or a not genuine faith, et cetera. What do you think about that?
Caller: Okay. In the New Testament, works are connected to the flesh. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these, adultery, fornication, murder, et cetera. So no works is ever going to Save us. What we’re talking about is the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Love, joy, peace, a sound mind. Those are the fruits of the Spirit. A man is born again. He produces fruit from the new nature when he feeds it with the scripture. So if we’re talking about works perfecting salvation, that’s what Galatians is all about. Having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh? Absolutely. Not again. Romans 4 is clear. May I read that again? Go ahead.
Brayden Cook: Yes. Can I just stop you. Can I just stop you there real fast? Because I want to point out that works aren’t automatically of the flesh. There are a plethora of passages. Just think of Ephesians 2, 8, 10, right? He saved us by grace, through faith, apart from works. And then in Ephesians 10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works. Good works. So there’s a distinction between works of the flesh and good works.
Caller: Right. That follows salvation. That’s the path that God laid out for his people involves me doing the works of the Lord. But they have to be done through the power of the Spirit. They cannot be in the works of the flesh.
Brayden Cook: Amen. Yeah, we absolutely agree with that. The works of the flesh cannot save. In fact, works of the flesh condemn you. Yeah, we absolutely agree with that. So I guess I’m failing to understand. So are you saying in James 2:14, he’s speaking about works of the flesh? Can faith without works of the flesh save him?
Caller: He’s speaking about works. Okay, can I just read Romans 4 because it’ll clear up James too.
Brayden Cook: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
Caller: So, okay, now, and remember that James, the pastor of the church in Jerusalem in Acts 15. Now, I don’t think it’s the same James that wrote the book of James. I think this is Jesus, brother. James 15 or Acts 15. But remember how they said that God purified the Gentiles hearts by faith without the law? Remember that council in Jerusalem?
Brayden Cook: Absolutely.
Caller: So James. Yeah. So James. Although maybe not the same James as James, but he can they. Even Peter was there and they said, yeah, you’re right. A man is purified by faith. And they concluded that in the first church council of Acts 15. But anyways, okay, what shall we say then? That Abraham our Father is pertaining to the flesh and found. For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath weare of glory, but not before God. Why? Because God knows your heart. For what saith the scripture. Abraham believed God. That’s Genesis 15, by the way. And it was counted unto him for righteousness now, to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace. And we’re saved by grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not so you’re not working for your salvation, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, that’s me, I’m the ungodly. His faith, the ungodly man, that’s me, is counted for righteousness. And then he goes on in an Old Testament scripture, in Psalms 32 about David, David had no sacrifice for adultery and murder. He should have been killed. And yet God spared him by his grace through imputation. And that’s my comment.
Brayden Cook: Yeah, I mean, I’m trying to understand Exactly. Because as Catholics, we accept the entirety of what you just read from Romans 4, right? We believe that there’s nothing that we can do before receiving justification to make God our debtor. Right. There’s nothing that we can do to demand that righteousness by which we become just.
Caller: Right.
Brayden Cook: It’s all gratuitous and it’s completely apart from our works insofar as we can’t merit it. Right. And so the justification of Abraham perfectly fits within Catholic soteriology because we say the exact same thing. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. If Abraham was justified by his works, he would have something to boast about, but not before God. We don’t believe that we’re justified by our works. We don’t enter into the state of salvation by our works. Completely gratuitous. Right. And so I guess my question is, where do you think we would have a problem with this passage in specific?
Caller: You mean James 2?
Brayden Cook: James or. Sorry, excuse me, Romans 4, I assume. You know, if we look at Romans 4 beginning at 4. Now, to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts in God, who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. What I’m kind of intuiting here is that you think that brushes up against our understanding of James 2, where we say that obedience, these sorts of good works are required to be saved in the end. And here’s where that.
Caller: Oh, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.
Brayden Cook: If you have a follow up, that’s fine.
Caller: Oh, yeah, a follow up on that. Okay. I strictly believe that Romans 4 is God sees the heart, you know, but not before God. But James 2, a man may say he has faith. You can say you have faith all day, but if I don’t see any fruit, then there’s no life, there’s no eternal life, there’s no fruit. If there’s no fruit, there’s no root there. It’s a dead faith.
Brayden Cook: Yeah, but in that passage, there’s nothing that James says that would identify dead faith with fake faith. Because immediately after he says, if a man says he has faith, he asks, can faith save him? So he’s still calling it faith. And later on in the passage, he, he compares. How, how is faith without works dead? He says, as a body without the soul or without a spirit is dead. So is faith without works dead now, as a body without the soul still a body? Yes. Now if we map that back onto why he’s using this analogy. Is faith without works still faith? Well, the answer would be yes. Right. And so he continually calls this faith, that is dead faith. He consistently uses faith. He doesn’t say pretend faith, he doesn’t say not genuine faith, he doesn’t say purported faith. He calls it faith. Now he attaches to this faith, dead faith or etc. Right. He calls it dead faith. But that’s not because it’s not faith. It’s because that sort of faith does not save, because it doesn’t produce. It’s not producing obedience.
Caller: Right.
Brayden Cook: And that’s why, going Back to Galatians 5, Paul says that, you know, circumcision, either uncircumcision availeth anything before God, the only thing that matters is faith working through love. Right. And so from a Catholic perspective, of course we believe that faith saves you. Of course we believe that there’s nothing that we can do to merit justification. However, when God justifies us, he actually enables us, as Ephesians 2, 8, 10 says, to walk in the good works he has prepared before us. And the question is, what happens if we don’t do that? He has enabled us to do good works. What happens if we don’t do those good works? And I believe James 2 answers that question. A faith without works is dead. It profits nothing.
Caller: Right.
Brayden Cook: Going back to First Corinthians, Paul says that faith without love is useless. Right. Or without love, if you have all faith, you are nothing.
Caller: Right.
Brayden Cook: And so the question I believe is not like, well, are good works required to justify you before you’ve received justification? It’s after you have been justified. Do you have to walk in the works that God has prepared for you? And I believe James 2 says yes.
Caller: Right.
Brayden Cook: So I guess that was a lot there. If you have any follow up questions, I’d love to hear them.
Caller: Okay. Yeah. Now the thing Is this okay? In Ephesians 2. 8, right before verse 10 and 9, it says, and I’m sure you know the verse, for by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. So even that is a gift. It is the gift of God, not of works. Lest any man should boast. Now. So as far as my salvation, that’s between me and God’s atonement on the cross. But the blood that Jesus shed, that ensures my justification, my righteousness. But following my salvation, there should be some type of proof that I’m trying to walk in what the Holy Spirit has said that. That we should produce fruit, that we should walk in what God ordained us to walk in. If we don’t. Here’s your answer. Romans 6 says, There is condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the Spirit, but after the flesh. And we see that Ananias and Sapphira, when they walked after the flesh, what happened to them? They died, but they. They didn’t go to hell. But God chastened them like the man that was living with his mother in law. Remember that one in First Corinthians where he was shacking up with his mother in law? Well, what happened? Paul said to turn such one over to Satan for the destruction of the. What? The flesh. That the Spirit may be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus. So there is a difference between. Oh, go ahead.
Cy Kellett: No, no. I just love this conversation. I hope that there will be a time that we can speak with you again. I. Braden, I gotta take the break. Is there something that you wanted to say to Al before we go?
Brayden Cook: Yes. There’s a lot to unpack here. I will. I will refrain from doing so. I think that where confusion lies is simply in the reception of justification. The distinction between the reception of justification ungodly to godly, and the Christian life after you have received justification. And so, for example, Ephesians 2 is explicitly about the reception of initial justification. Going from dead in your trespasses by nature, children of wrath, etc. To adopted sons and daughters of God justified before his sight. And so that transition. As Catholics, we explicitly affirm and dogmatically teach that it is apart from any works. There is no. There are no works. There are not. There’s nothing that we could do to merit it. To that we say an amen. Right. The question all surrounds what happens after. Right. And as we went through in James 2, and as there are other passages that say and indicate, there are things that are required of us as Christians after we have been justified to continue in this state. In John 15, our Lord says, apart from me, you can do nothing but every branch, right? This is the parable of the true vine, every branch of mine in me, in the Greek that bears no fruit, he the Father, the vinedresser takes away. And later on he says, abide in me and I in you. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in me, right? And he who abides, or if a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers, and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned, right? And so what this is speaking about is after you’ve you’ve you’ve received this justification, if you fail to bear fruit, if you fail to keep his commandments, if you fail to abide in him, then you will be cut off from that supernatural life in Christ, right? And so we have to keep this in mind constantly. We have to find those passages of Scripture that speak about life in Christ and what’s required of us after we’ve been justified, right? And so that’s an important distinction to speak about.
Cy Kellett: Al, thank you so much for a wonderful conversation. If you’d like to do it again, give us your number and we’ll do this again. Braden Cook is our guest. We’re talking about sola fide. Is it true that faith alone saves us? We’ll continue with that right after this on Catholic Answers Live.