In this clip, Cy Kellett welcomes Karlo Broussard to discuss the nature of salvation in Catholicism versus Protestantism. Karlo clarifies the Catholic understanding that salvation is a free gift from God, not something we can earn through our own efforts. Tune in as they navigate this critical theological debate.
Transcript:
Caller: I think my biggest issue with Catholicism is the gospel message, the salvation message, that we earn our salvation, whereas the biblical message is that we receive salvation by faith. I’m certainly not, a, bible expert like Dr. Karlo is, but, I know enough scripture to where that’s the, majority of scripture. That’s what it teaches, that we receive salvation. It’s a gift. It’s not something that we earn or merit, but it’s something that’s offered to us freely as a gift based on Jesus’s death on the cross for our sins.
Karlo Broussard: Okay. All right, Mark, that’s a great point that you bring up. and I have a few thoughts in response, so we’ll see if we can have a good, fruitful conversation here. So if you mean by quote unquote, earn when you speak of earning our Salvation that this is something we can gain through our own efforts by our own natural powers, then we agree with you, Mark, that we cannot earn our salvation. We as Catholics reject wholeheartedly that salvation can be given as a reward for something we do of our own natural power. That is a metaphysical impossibility. You cannot attain, a supernatural reward like salvation on account of things that we do of our own natural powers. There is just an infinite disproportion between the two. So if by earn our salvation you mean acquiring salvation based upon our own natural powers, we agree wholeheartedly and we agree that salvation is a free gift that is offered to us by God, not even on account of faith that comes before the instrument of the waters of baptism. So the Catholic Church teaches that there’s an imperfect faith that people have when they initially come to believe in the gospel and the revelation of God, and how that faith is actually a gift that God gives. It’s a grace. But that’s in turn ordered toward the waters of baptism, which serves as the instrument through which we receive the free gift of God, namely, salvation. Like, for example in Acts chapter two, when those 3,000 people on the day of Pentecost say they’re convicted in the heart, and they ask the apostles, what do we have to do to gain eternal life? And then Peter responds, repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and the reception of the Holy Spirit, thereby revealing baptism to be the instrument through which they receive that grace of the forgiveness of sins, which indeed is a free gift. Nothing they’d done prior to that. Even the faith manifest in the question, what must we do to be saved? In no way merits that free gift of salvation at that moment. And that gift is simply given through the means of the waters of baptism, corresponding to what St. Peter says in 1st Peter 3:21, baptism now saves you. So, Mark, when we’re talking about that initial phase of transitioning from spiritual death to spiritual life, that gift of salvation is just that, a, ah, 100% free gift. And no good work prior to that, not even an imperfect gift of faith where somebody just comes to believe in God’s revelation can bring about or be a causal factor for receiving that free gift. Now, so we’re in. I think I would assume we’re in agreement there. Now, where we perhaps disagree is after that initial phase of salvation, after we transition from spiritual death to spiritual life, then the good works that we perform not of our own natural power, but good works of a supernatural nature that are an effect of God’s grace itself, and thereby gifts themselves, can now be proportionate to attaining the supernatural reward of eternal life in heaven. And so you brought up, you know, salvation not being merited. Well, if you’re talking about initial gift of salvation, where we initially transition from spiritual death to spiritual life, we agree wholeheartedly. But if we’re talking about salvation in the final sense, entering into heaven, receiving heaven itself at the end of our lives, well, then the Bible teaches that our good works, good works not of our own natural powers, but good works that are the effects of grace themselves, flowing from the principle of charity within us. They can bring about or quote, unquote, merit the supernatural reward of eternal life. Mark? Where would you agree? Maybe we can find some common ground here. Where would you disagree?
Caller: There’s so many things that I could respond to. when you mentioned Acts 2:38, it says, repent and be baptized. But how can an infant repent? But.
Karlo Broussard: Yeah, good point.
Caller: In Acts chapter 16, the jailer asked the apostles, what must I do to be saved? They didn’t say, be baptized. I be baptized. They said, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. You mentioned that, salvation is by faith, but then you go on to say that we merit salvation by good works. It seems like, even though the initial act of salvation might be by faith, it seems like you’re still saying that we merit salvation through the good works. So, how does somebody go to heaven? Do they go to heaven based on their faith, or do they go to heaven based on the good works that they do after faith?
Karlo Broussard: Okay, all right. Three good points here, man. So let me see if I can respond to them in a succinct and clear way for you. So you brought up the point, about Acts 2:38. And you asked, well, how can infants repent? And you bring up a great point. Infants can’t repent. But notice, that was an exhortation to adults there. And so infants would be a side question that we could entertain and think about with regard to infant baptism. But my point for Acts 2:38, which is on target here, is with regard to the place of baptism for salvation through baptism. St. Peter teaches that forgiveness of sins and the reception of the Holy Spirit are effects of them. And so that teaches us that baptism brings about those gifts. It’s the instrument through which we’re going to receive those gifts. Now, I’m glad you went back to Acts 2:38, because you quoted Acts 16 with regard to the question, what must we do to have eternal life? Believe on the Lord Jesus? We don’t deny that that is something people must do. They must believe in Jesus Christ. But, Mark, we take those two passages together. Belief in Jesus Christ. Absolutely. And that belief prior to the initial act of salvation is ordered toward receiving the gift of salvation in and through the waters of baptism, per Acts 2:38. So those two actually reconcile and go together. Now, your last point about meriting salvation by works. It is true that we believe the final salvation, which is entrance into heaven, can be merited by our good works. But here’s the key, Mark. Please understand this. When I speak, and when we speak of our good works meriting final salvation, we do not mean good works done of our own natural power. We believe, Mark, that the good works we perform that are related to receiving final salvation, like Jesus says, feeding the Hungry, giving drink to the thirst, and clothing the naked, etc. Those are gifts of grace themselves, such that when God rewards us, Mark, with entrance into heaven, our final salvation based upon those good works of love, he is rewarding his own gifts because those works, Mark, or as Ah, St. Paul says in Philippians 2, 13, the effects of God working in us. God works in us to intend and to act with regard to our good works in relation to salvation. And then finally, you ask the question, how to attain heaven? Faith or works after faith? It’s both. And, my friend, according, to the biblical portrait, it’s both faith and our works of love, faith, hope and charity, or that which constitutes us being in a saving relationship with Jesus Christ. And in fact, above all those three, St. Paul would even say in First Corinthians 13. Excuse me, that charity is the greatest among those three.
Caller: Well, I, I believe that you’re saying that we’re still saved by our works. And, Scripture says we’re saved by faith and not of works. it’s a. Ephesians, 2, 89. For by grace are you saved through faith. It’s not of yourselves. This is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. But then the very next verse, Paul says that, we are ordained for good works, which is what you’re talking about. But do those work?
Karlo Broussard: Yeah, I agree.
Caller: No, they. No, they don’t. Not according to verses eight and nine.
Karlo Broussard: Yeah, you know, Mark, I’m glad you brought that up, brother, because you actually prove the point I was trying to make from a Catholic perspective. Recall, my friend, how I said earlier that in that initial act of salvation, when we transition from spiritual death to spiritual life, recall I said that our good works do not merit that initial act of salvation. Our works have no causal role to play in bringing about that initial act of salvation. And when you read the context mark of Ephesians 2, from verses 1 all the way through 8 and 9, you’ll discover that St. Paul is talking about that initial transition from spiritual death. Paul explicitly says, we were dead in our sins, and now we are alive in Christ. And so it is not of any work that you have done. And as you put it, you introduced an important qualifier of yourselves. That’s exactly what I said earlier. Even after faith, there’s no work that we can do of ourselves that can merit final salvation, even more so even before the initial act of salvation. And so Ephesians 2, 8, 9 applies to the initial transition from spiritual death to spiritual life. And Mark, as you beautifully put it in verse 10, St. Paul teaches us that God has foreordained and planned for us for good works, for us to walk in the good works he has prepared for us. And that’s exactly the Catholic position. After the initial transition from spiritual death to spiritual life, we walk in the good works of love that God moves us to walk in in a supernatural way, which, as I said earlier, Mark, or gifts of God in and of themselves, not of our own, but of God working in us to accomplish his good purpose. So that’s what I would say in response to.
Cy Kellett: And Mark, that was a wonderful opening call. I’m, very, very grateful, for the opportunity to have that conversation. If you would like, I will be happy to send you Carlo’s, first book of dialogue with, Protestant, thinking. And that is Meeting the Protestant Challenge. Just give us an address and we will send it off to you.