In this clip, Cy Kellett welcomes Karlo Broussard to discuss the Catholic belief about salvation and what happens after death. Karlo explains the essential role of baptism in salvation and how it connects believers to the mystical body of Christ.
Transcript:
Caller: I’m not a Catholic, I would say non denominational, I guess, and just listening. I’m kind of hearing a couple interesting, things. And so one, the biggest one to me, I think I want to ask about is what is the Catholic, belief, or what does Catholicism teach about how you are safe? I think that’s the most important aspect of our faith is how we are saved and how we, after, death, are raised up with Jesus.
Karlo Broussard: Okay, very good question, Josh. so we would acknowledge what Jesus says, you know, in John 3. 16, who believes, you know, the, you know, for God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten Son, so that whosoever shall believe in him shall not perish. So for, for us as adults, it is important to note that belief and faith is necessary.
Caller: Ok?
Karlo Broussard: And by no means do we deny that. We absolutely affirm that. But at the same time, Josh, we also see in Scripture, for example, in 1 Peter 3. 21, that baptism saves us. As St. Peter would write, that baptism is not merely a removal of the external dirt from the body, but an appeal, to a clear conscience, right? So according to Peter, baptism saves us. St. Paul writes in Romans, chapter 6, verses 3 through 4, that through baptism we die with Christ, but we also rise to a newness of life. And in verse seven, through that death, we are freed from sin. So we recognize that baptism does have a salvific effect on our soul. And according to St. Paul, in First Corinthians 12, baptism incorporates us into the mystical Body of Christ. So as Catholics, we would say that baptism by virtue of the command of Christ and the teaching of the apostles, initially saves us, initially puts us into a saving relationship with God, namely, being a member of the mystical body of Christ, where grace is flowing and existing within our soul. We call it divine charity. Now, once we enter into that saving relationship with Christ and we come to the use of reason, then we must cooperate with God’s grace to remain in relationship with him. And this is where St. James would talk about works such as corporal works of mercy, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked in James, chapter 2, verses 14 through 17, without which James says, our faith is dead. And then in James 2:24, talking about how we’re just justified by works and not by faith alone. James is talking about works done in Christ, through Christ, with Christ, by the power of Christ’s grace, not our own works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians chapter 2, verses 8 through 9, but works done in and through Christ. And we would have to persevere in those works of love or charity, as Jesus says in Matthew 10:22 Unto the end, in order to achieve this final salvation. So we enter into Christ through baptism. We work, in Christ by his grace with charity, love which manifests itself in our external behaviors, in order to remain in that grace, in order to increase and grow in our sanctification. and we hope to persevere in that love until the end of our life so that we can achieve that completion of our. Of this salvific process that Christ has started within us. So that would be, in a nutshell, sort of the Catholic view of salvation. So what do you think of that, Josh?
Caller: So at what point, could I be confident of my faith, knowing that if I died, I would be in heaven? At one point, after I do all the things and maintain and do all this, all this stuff to please Jesus, or to please God, if you will, or to keep in faith with him. Where, at what point can I be assured of my faith?
Karlo Broussard: Okay. Well, we would say as Catholics, that we have to nuance a little bit and talk about what kind of assurance are we talking about? Are we talking about a sort of moral assurance or moral certitude that I could experience a life of joy and not falling to this idea of scrupulosity, oh, my God, I’m fixing to go to hell, or are we talking about Sort of this metaphysical certainty that I know that I’m going to heaven, as much as I am certain that two plus two equals four. If we’re talking about the latter. If we’re talking about the latter, the Church would deny that. But the Church does teach, as St. John the Apostle teaches in First John, chapter 5, verses 13 through 15, that the knowledge that we have that we know we are saved is a confident assurance. It’s sort of a. It’s a confident knowledge. And John makes a parallel between our knowledge of us being saved and our knowledge that God will hear our prayers. When I make a request of God, Josh, I don’t have this metaphysical certainty that God will absolutely answer my prayer as I see it should be answered right. But I have a confident assurance. Given my limited knowledge, given my circumstances, I make this request of God. I have a confident knowledge that God’s going to respond. Similarly, St. John draws a parallel with our knowledge of salvation. Although I don’t have an absolute certitude, I have a moral assurance that if I am in a state of grace, I haven’t committed any serious sins. As St. John would say in 1st John 5, A sin unto death. Then I have a moral assurance that if I die today, I have good reason to think that I will be saved. But I can’t say, as St. Paul would say. I would say with St. Paul, I cannot thereby judge myself, as St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 4, 6. What are your thoughts?
Caller: Well, you know, for me, a part of what Jesus has done is given me a hope of knowing that since I have come into a faith with him, that I have, that he has freed me from my sin, if you will, that, that I have a hope that when I die, I will be in heaven. I mean, it doesn’t matter what I do on this life because God has saved me. He no longer sees me as a sinful.
Karlo Broussard: Okay.
Caller: You know, I don’t have to do works through our works, you know, through our salvation and because of, you know, honestly, respect for God, and that’s a terrible word, but respect for God and for what he’s done for us. That’s why we do work, you know, that’s why we, we live a life worthy of God. it’s not for salvation.
Karlo Broussard: Now, let me ask you this, Let me ask you this, Josh. You just said that you, you need to be doing these works of love out of respect for God and what he has done for you. Now, Josh, if you didn’t do those works, wouldn’t that thereby express a lack of respect for God and a lack of gratitude for what he has done for you?
Caller: Yeah. I would say that our lives, you know, after salvation is a growth. You know, sanctification. You know, you’re at one area and you’re growing with your faith in God. And for me, honestly, if you have, if you claim to be a Christian, you’re not doing any good works. I would look at your heart and be like, okay, really? Did you. Did you actually believe that God saved you with. You know, did you actually believe in your heart? And to me, I would say. I would say I have to take a look hard look at that and be like, if you don’t have assurance of your faith, you’re probably not safe. Yeah, you probably just said it with your mouth and you did it. And it wasn’t a heart thing. You know what I mean? Well, I was like, having to do work.
Karlo Broussard: Okay?
Caller: I. Honestly, when I hear the Catholics, and I have lots of Catholics friends, and I talk with, every. And I love debating and stuff, but when I look at what the Catholics require, if you will, what they. What you guys say is necessary, you know, to me, I see that as the teachers of the law. Ah, the Pharisees. These are the things that you have to do to have God accept you. It’s not about what I do for God. It’s about what God has done for me.
Karlo Broussard: Amen. Amen. I couldn’t agree more, Josh. God has done marvelous deeds in my own life and in all of our lives. But because he has called us. I would say in response that, Josh, because he has called us into a relationship of love with him. There are certain things that follow from the nature of a loving relationship, as you just articulated, that we should be doing works of love out of respect for God, out of love for God, I would say not just a matter of justice, but out of, filial love for God. Like this sort of familial love, Right? An intimate love. And an intimate love for Jesus Christ and an intimate love for our neighbor. But fundamentally, Josh, if we do not perform those acts of love, well, then if our failure to perform those acts of love, so whatever behavior that we do violates love, is serious enough to cut us from the divine life flow of the mystical body of Christ, as St. John articulates in 1st John 5, 16, I think it is, where he talks about a sin unto death, right? Well, if we would do such a thing unto death, spiritual death, well, then if we died separated from the mystical body of Christ, well, then hell would be my lot. And it’s interesting, Josh, because this is articulated by St. Peter in second Peter, chapter two. If you read the whole chapter, St. Peter talks about, I think it’s in chapter one, how, those have come to Christ, right? And then in chapter two, he talks about those who have tasted Christ, have come to Christ, actually have returned to their evil, sinful ways. They have come out of the world. But then St. Peter articulates in second Peter 2 that they return back to the world, and he says, he compares it to a dog returning to its vomit, the latter state being worse than the first, which would imply that these were Christians who were saved. They came out of the world, entered into Christ, but then returned back to the world. And, Josh, all we’re saying as Catholics is that we have to be, vigilant, right? That we do not fall into that category of those who return back to sin and wickedness and darkness as a dog returning back to its vomit. For if we do and we die in that state, heaven will not be ours.
Cy Kellett: Josh, thank you so much, for the call. We do have to continue to take calls, and so I just invite you to call back anytime you want, Josh.
Karlo Broussard: And I just want to say, Sy, real quick, I appreciate Josh’s demeanor. I know the way he conducted himself in having this conversation with me. So, Josh, kudos to you, bro, and
Cy Kellett: I sincerely mean it. Josh, call anytime. 888-318-7884.