In this clip, Cy Kellett welcomes Karlo Broussard to discuss how Catholics view the saints and the use of images in worship. Karlo clarifies the distinction between honoring saints and idolatry, addressing common misconceptions about practices like lighting candles. Tune in to hear a compelling defense of Catholic beliefs!
Transcript:
Cy Kellett: Joseph, thank you for the call. Go ahead with the question.
Caller: Yes, hello. Okay, if I go into a Catholic church, I see images with candles burning in front of them. How is that not an offering? also I’ve been trying to understand how the Catholics view the saints. And when I read the Old Testament, I see a lot about the teraphim, which were images of departed ancestors. And that, seems to be similar. And then also in Jeremiah, we hear about them, speaking of the Queen of heaven after they had fled to Egypt. And when I talk to Catholics, they say, well, we just asked them for intercession.
Karlo Broussard: Okay. Yeah, good question, Joseph. So the question are perpetually burning candles conceived of and thought to be offerings to Mary as a sacrifice? And the answer is just simply no. Joseph, like Catholics, do not intend the lighting of a candle to be a sacrificial offering to Mary. Rather, the symbolic value of the lit candle is to be a visible representation of a perpetual request. You brought that up earlier, how we were asking the saints to pray for us, a perpetual request that we are making of Mary. Given the fact, Joseph, that we’re corporeal beings, we have to express movements of the heart and the mind in and through the body. You called in and asked a question verbally, using your vocal cords and enunciating words and sounds to communicate ideas to us. Because as a human being, you must communicate in and through the body. And that’s good. That’s a part of our human nature. Similarly, for us to be able to communicate, it is good and fitting for us to communicate to the blessed in heaven, making our requests known unto them, not only just mentally and spiritually, sort of the interior movement of my heart and my mind, but also to visibly manifest that through lit candles. So not only when I go in am I reminded visibly of these perpetual requests being made of Christians in heaven, our fellow members of the mystical body of Christ, but also that I am called to make the requests. I am invited to make the request as well. And I am invited to implore the saints in heaven to remember the requests, to respond to the requests that have been made, of them visibly represented by the lit candle. So rather than the lit candle being a sacrificial offering to Mary, which would be idolatrous, and anybody who’s doing that would need to repent. Joseph, the common Catholic understanding and the church’s teaching and understanding of this is that these are visible signs of the requests that Christians make of Mary and all the other saints in heaven. All right, so with regard to departed ancestors, obviously there is some overlap with our understanding of the communion of saints, referring to the saints who have departed, those who have gone into the afterlife, the blessed in heaven, they are our departed ancestors, right? Spiritual ancestors, loved ones, members of the mystical body of Christ. So there’s going to be some overlap. However, there’s difference given the afterlife experience of, separated souls in the old covenant between before the ascension of Christ into heaven, where the beatific vision is made available for human beings, and of course, in the new covenant, where that beatific vision is had by the blessed in heaven. So there’s going to be some similarity in on in some senses, but there’s going to be some differences as well. We’re in a new covenant with new revelation and new Things being given to the separated souls in heaven. Now, with regard to your appeal to the queen of heaven in Jeremiah, the important thing to point out there is that in verses 17:25, what is being described, or acts of worship, the making of cakes and offering them to the quote, unquote, queen of heaven as an act of worship and pouring out drink, libations, two actions which have in and of themselves the nature of sacrifice being offered to this pagan deity. And that’s what the people, that’s what God’s people, that’s what Jeremiah is pronouncing to be worthy of condemnation, the act of adultery. Now, fair point for you, Joseph. Your, Your question is, well, wait a minute. We seemingly see things that might not be offering of cakes and libation offerings being presented to a statue of Mary, but we do see candles being lit. And so that would seem to be an example of an act of idolatry. And hopefully I’m tracking your, your question correctly. There’s. And that’s a fair question. What do you think of that, Joseph? Is that helpful in any way, my friend?
Caller: I, have to think about it. The first question that comes to mind is exactly who is it a symbol for? Because if it’s a symbol to other people, then we’re not supposed to make our prayers obvious to everybody around us.
Karlo Broussard: Ah, well, I mean, I. I don’t. I don’t know.
Caller: It’s not an offering to the saints.
Karlo Broussard: So let me. Let me. Let me chat with you a little bit, Joseph, about that premise you had in that argument on that objection. You. You’re assuming that we ought not to let other people know what we are praying or asking for. Like, why do you think that, man?
Caller: Why?
Karlo Broussard: Like, where are you getting that from?
Caller: Not that we shouldn’t let anybody know, but that it isn’t to be something of show.
Karlo Broussard: Okay, I got you. Okay, I got you. Joseph, I would agree with you, but notice that’s dependent upon one’s intention. Like, for example, in Romans 15:30, Paul asks the Christians in Rome, hey, guys, pray to God on my behalf. And he lists, like, three different things. My memory’s slipping me right now, one of which I think is success in his ministry. So he’s asking them to pray for him. He’s making that known to all those who read the letter to the Romans, but yet he’s not doing it for show. And we know that because Paul’s a lover of God. Like, he’s a humble guy. We can make a reasonable conclusion that he’s making those requests known not for the sake of showing off, which some religious leaders did and still do. Jesus had a few harsh words for those Pharisees who did that, but rather he’s making the request known because fellow Christians need to know his needs so that they can implore God to meet those needs. And that’s just part and parcel of the Christian life. Brother, I would assume you would agree with me that as Christians, we. We want as many holy Christians praying for us as possible. And that involves making them know the needs that we have to ask God for. But we do that not out of show and pride and vainglory, which is condemnable. We do it out of love. Like, hey, fellow Christian member of the mystical Body of Christ, God has set it up that we depend upon each other for help. I need your help. Can you help me? That Joseph is the spirit with which we visibly manifest the requests that we’re making to the saints.
Caller: Okay, so are you saying it’s a combination of reminding ourselves and reminding others of the request, or what are we reminding with the candle?
Karlo Broussard: Yeah, that’s a great question. I would say both in. When I walk into a church and I see the candles lit, it reminds me of requests generally that people have made of the saints. That prompts me to either a, make my own request of the saints and establish a relationship with them and communicate in the sense of asking them for prayers and help, but also to implore the saints and say, hey, whoever made the request represented by that candle right there, if it’s in front of a statue of Mary, I would say, mary, please help that person out. So it’s a reminder of me to prompt me to ask the saints help. It’s a reminder of me to ask Mary to help the person who made the request. And it could also be a reminder of me to pray for those who made the request, that they would have the request, granted unto them according to God’s will. And then it’s a reminder to just the whole congregation, generally speaking, of the theological reality of the communion of saints, that Mary is our spiritual mother in heaven whom we implore for help. And then we are reminded of the communion of saints in heaven by the statues of other saints to prompt us to ask for their help as well. Because we believe in 1 Corinthians 12 and St. Paul’s theology of the Mystical Body of Christ.
Cy Kellett: I tell you what I’d like to do, if you would like, Joseph, I’ll send you a book we have called the Saints Pray for you, how the Christians in Heaven Help Us Here on Earth. And it’s by our guest, Dr. Carla Broussard. If you’d like a copy of it, just hang on, we’ll send it to you for free. We have a very generous donor who makes it possible for us to send books, out for free, and we’d love you to have it. That brings us to the break right back with more tips for defending the faith. One line open, eight, eight, eight, three. One, eight seven eight eight four.