In this clip, Cy Kellett welcomes Karlo Broussard to discuss a pastor’s shocking act of encouraging children to destroy religious statues. Karlo explains the deeper context of Scripture regarding graven images and the implications of such actions on Catholic beliefs.
Transcript:
Caller: So I’m going to give you a few options here.
Caller: Okay?
Caller: We got a Mary for all the Catholics. Okay. We’ve got another angel thing. Demon is what you could call it if you want. And then another weird. It already lost some wings, but it needs to lose some more. So you can choose, choose what you would like. All right? Mary’s going down. Catholics. I’m sorry. Bam.
Caller: Okay?
Caller: So just for those that are listening,
Cy Kellett: the bam was a sweet little girl with a hammer. All right, Jojo, as you prepare yourself, a mar statue. And that got the reaction that you heard. So I wanted to see what your reaction was to this.
Karlo Broussard: Well, my first reaction is sorrow for this taking place in relation to Our lady, asking Our lady to please look with mercy upon them, for they know not what they do. Ultimately, for our Lord to look with mercy upon them, for they know not what they do. Second thought is, why would he call an angel a demon? Does he not believe in angels as revealed in Sacred Scripture? That was one thought that I had.
Caller: Yeah.
Karlo Broussard: Yeah, that was interesting. Maybe he’s thinking the demon behind, insofar as it is a statue.
Caller: That’s what I’m thinking. Because it’s a graven image, it must be a demon.
Karlo Broussard: And then, of course, with regard to the statue of Our Lady. But the fundamental problem here. Si. Is that he’s quoting sacred scripture. You quoted it Deuteronomy 5, 8. And he did that before. Before he led the little girl into smashing the statues. And of course, that teaching is also first stated in Exodus, chapter 20, which provides a greater context in which that prohibition of graven images comes. The first question in my mind is, is he thinking that prohibition of quote unquote graven images refers to no religious imagery whatsoever? If that is what he’s operating on. You cannot have any religious images on account of God’s command. Well, then if we were to follow that logic, then if he were in the Old Testament, he would have to get those children hammers to go and knock off the golden cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant. Yeah, angels, angels, Exactly. Which. Not demons and not demons, but angels which was explicitly commanded by God to be built and put on the Ark.
Caller: Right.
Karlo Broussard: He would have to command the Israelites lights to go and tear down the 5215 foot cherubim in the holy of holies because God gave explicit instruction for those to be built. So the logic that he’s employing there would lead to these unfavorable consequences where he would be destroying things that God expressly commanded to be built.
Caller: Yeah.
Karlo Broussard: Now, perhaps he might counter this pastor and say, well, in Second Kings, chapter 18, verse 4, King Hezekiah destroyed the bronze serpent that was erected back in numbers 21 for the Israelites to look upon to be healed. So he might appeal to that in order to justify his practices of destroying these what he sees to be graven images. But there brings up the real issue at hand that would manifest the pastor seeing these religious images as idols. And that’s what constitutes the destruction of the bronze serpent in 2 Kings, chapter 18, when the Israelites started to relate to the bronze serpent which Moses, by God’s command, commanded for them to erect and even venerate by looking upon it with devotion and be healed. When they started looking upon it as a deity, as an idol, which is what graven images, so the context shows, refers to, then they destroyed it. And so the action of this pastor manifests an assumption that these religious images are idols.
Caller: Yeah, yeah.
Karlo Broussard: Not merely because it’s religious imagery, so it would seem, but rather he views them as idols. Then actually, that’s what graven images refers to in the Old Testament. The Hebrew word pacelle is used throughout the Old Testament in reference to images that are viewed upon as idols within pagan culture, and the Israelites being tempted with that. We see that in Isaiah, chapter 44, verse 9. And that’s what the context bears out, for example, in Exodus 20, which is embedded within the first commandment, have no false gods before me. And so God starts with that and then says, have no graven images. Do not bow down or serve them. That’s the key. God is prohibiting the worship of of these images. That’s what constitutes a graven image. So our pastor friend here is viewing these things as idols. So then the question becomes, why do you think these are idols in Catholic life?
Caller: Right, right.
Karlo Broussard: And then he might say, oh, well, because y’ all bow down before them. Well, why do you think bowing before a religious image automatically entails worship? Was King Solomon worshiping his mother Bathsheba when he bowed before her in 1st Kings 2? No. Is Jesus commanding the quote unquote, synagogue of Satan to worship Christians in the Book of Revelation? Can’t remember the citation. It might be chapter two, verse nine. But my memory’s not working correctly right now. Jesus commands the says, I will make you bow down before the Christians. Is Jesus commanding them to commit idolatry? Of course not. Bowing in and of itself could be a form or an act of worship that belongs to God alone, but not necessarily. It could just simply be an act of reverence or honor but do to a creature. And so these are the sorts of questions that have to be teased out in this sort of activity. He’s assuming these are idols, but we would argue they’re not idols if somebody were to relate to them as an idol. But then that would be bad and they would need to repent. But he’s wrongly assuming that Catholics view these items as idols that we’re worshiping, which belongs to God alone. So although I will concede that perhaps his motivation is sound and legit, like he thinks these Catholics are worshiping these things as idols, like King Hezekiah, we need to go and destroy these idols. That’s a good motivation.
Caller: Right.
Karlo Broussard: But he’s working off of some wrong intellectual assumptions and judgments that he’s making about Catholic life and how we relate to religious imagery. And so it’s just unfortunate that due to that error that’s at the beginning of the thinking process, it’s leading to these sorts of behaviors that’s leading, unfortunately, these young children into misconceptions about Catholicism.
Cy Kellett: Yeah. And. And it does seem to me that most people wouldn’t do this to an image of Mary just because even if you’re. If you didn’t agree with the Catholic position, you wouldn’t do it to an image of Mary because she’s the mother of Jesus. I mean, there’s basic. Like, that would be like, you show me a picture of your mother and I just tear it up. Well, Well, I mean, I might. I like your mother. I mean, I don’t know your mother, so. But I mean, you know, whatever my feelings are, I wouldn’t do that. And so I think even I did notice online that even Protestants who are.
Caller: This is too far.
Caller: Yeah. Like, this is not right.
Karlo Broussard: Well, think about it. Si. You know, you have an image of Jesus mother in plaster or whatever the material is made out of. Like, in principle, what’s the difference between that quote unquote image and the image of Jesus’s mother in ink when you read it on a page in Scripture and that image is conjured up in your imagination, like, these are means by which the person is being thought of and related to. And so if he’s going to be in favor of destroying an image of Jesus mother and this image. Material form.
Caller: Yeah. Why not every.
Karlo Broussard: Well, why not go and rip out those pages in the Bible that speak of Mary? In principle, it’s the same. It’s a. It’s a. It’s a means by which the mind or means by which the person is brought to mind for us to recall and then to relate to and enter into relationship with. And so there’s just all sorts of problems here with this sort of behavior. That’s just sad to see and unfortunate.
Cy Kellett: Yeah. And the kids weren’t wearing eye protection, either. You can’t you can’t smash porcelain with a hammer with no eye protection on. I appreciate you taking the time to do that, because it really did make the rounds online. And many people would say it’s a tough Catholic teaching, this idea that we can have statues of Mary. So they might object to that. So we started there. Dr. Carlo Broussard is our guest. He’s the director of apologetics here at Catholic Answers. And if there’s a tough Catholic teaching you want to talk about. 888-318-788.