In this clip, Cy Kellett welcomes Tom Nash to discuss why Jesus established the Catholic Church instead of a universal body of believers. Tom addresses the caller’s concerns about Peter’s role and the necessity of visible authority in the Church, providing insights into the early Church’s structure and leadership.
Transcript:
Caller: I’ve heard from others that Jesus did not establish the Catholic Church. And why is it that he established the Catholic Church and not a universal body of believers? And so we’re talking about Peter’s authority. But I’ve heard that, yes, Peter was important, but he didn’t do anything Popely things, essentially.
Tom Nash: Yeah, thank you very much for the question, Nicholas. And I would say to your friends, like, okay, by what mechanism in the early church, based upon the New Testament, do we determine when there is a dispute? And indeed there were disputes, as I mentioned, We also see in Hebrews, chapter 13, the Epistle to the Hebrews, I believe verse 17, about how obey your leaders. In other words, he established human leaders. And not just for that time. I would tell him, Nicholas, but for thereafter. Because if we needed the apostles from the early church, like, okay, we know we knew Jesus, and he established these 12. Well, what does Jesus do? He provides a mechanism so that Matthias can replace or succeed Judas. And so if for Judas, how much? And therefore Messiah succeeding, him, how much more for Peter? And we see that Peter does have this authority, including that he is the rock. And people say, oh, he’s just some little stone. Well, no, look at. I tell him, Nicholas, look, look at John 1:42, where he’s called Cephas. And Jesus is saying that also in St. Paul’s letter to the Corinthians, and in Galatians, he refers to him as Cephas or Kepha. And this means a sizable rock, not some little stone. Right? And it’s ultimately again, Jesus is the cornerstone, but he founds this church, just as you had a prime minister in the Davidic kingdom. Check out Isaiah 22, 15, 25. So we have visible leaders in the church. And that if you’re going to have the unity for which Jesus prayed to the Father, and we know because he’s God, that he’ll be perfectly fulfilled because the word of God does not return to him void, as the prophet Isaiah says in chapter 55, verses 10 and 11, that we will see this too in the New Covenant. And so Peter is that principle of unity. We see him acting again in Acts 15 at the council of Jerusalem. We see him that he’s commissioned by Jesus to confirm the brethren. So in those difficult times, and we see the testimony from the early church, like for example, Saint Irenaeus and others, that there were these successors, and in particular the successor of Peter, who eventually received residing in Rome, that is the one who’s first and foremost important. And so it only makes sense that if Jesus is praying for unity, that the world may know that, you have sent me, Father in heaven, that he’s going to provide a mechanism, a structure, a Hierarchical structure. And he does with the apostles built on the foundation of the apostles, beginning with St. Paul, excuse me, beginning with the apostles, as St. Paul, affirms in Ephesians 2, 19, 22, but that, you know, so you have a difficulty, potentially between apostles. There’s one that he prays for in particular, and that’s Peter and by extension his successors, that he will confirm the brethren. Right. That the gates of hell will not prevail against Peter in particular. So that the papacy without Christ doesn’t exist. And the papacy without Christ cannot be sustained for 2000 years. So I think that talking to your friends and say, look, yeah, you got this universal body of believers, but how can we really be one if there is no visible leadership? So that we know when we are getting it right about Jesus teaching, including salvation, including the real presence of the Eucharist, which aids our salvation, and when we are not. These are crucial questions. And Christ, founded a church consistent with what God has done for all salvation history. He works through human authority. And so too, in the early church.
Caller: I feel like they would say that if you look at the duty of a Pope now, as opposed to Peter, they would say that those are two different roles, which I wouldn’t agree with, but I just, I can imagine this being a response of theirs, and I don’t know how I would necessarily handle that.
Tom Nash: Sure, sure. And of course, the church is bigger, right? Like the acorn versus the oak tree. And I would say, first of all, and I ask them, say, guys, what’s your alternative? And I say this in charity, because what is your alternative? To make sure that the teachings of Christ are safeguarded and also to let them know, Nicholas, that when we speak about the Pope, that when he teaches definitively on faith and morals, that’s when he speaks infallibly. It doesn’t mean that the Pope is going to be the holiest person. It doesn’t mean that the Pope is going to, necessarily get it right if he’s speaking off the cuff in an interview on an airplane 30,000ft above the earth. But what it does point out, too, is that we always have, from the lineage of Christ, that the Church’s teachings will always be sustained. And now, okay, we, we got versus Peter. It’s a much bigger church in terms numerically, you know, he talks about making disciples of all nations. St. Andrew says, wow, this has really happened. And this is the late 400s, late 300s, early 400s, and all the more now with the Pope. So the Pope, yeah, he’s got to reach out now. There’s certain things he’s going to talk about prudential judgment regarding war, regarding various things, immigration, whatnot. He is the teacher of Christ, and he wants to remind people that our ultimate destiny is in Christ and. And that we need to treat each other with respect. And therefore, he is going to try to, in his efforts as the vicar of Christ on Earth, to try to reach out to wherever there is a conflict, to try to make a difference. And so he is that reminder, that visible reminder on earth. So this is necessarily because we see the fulfillment of the church in terms of what Christ said. Make disciples of all nations. It is much bigger than it was before. So the Pope’s responsibilities, although consistent with what Peter has, he speaks to a wider audience. So I would say, number one, that he’s trying to in his evangelization, and part of that is through getting involved and trying to say, hey, let’s not have war in the Middle East. Let’s stop the war in the Middle East. Let’s stop the war. Ukraine, Russia. This is how he’s trying to witness to them. And then the other thing I would say to your friends is like, what is the alternative? Because if someone says, I have the Bible, well, as Martin Luther and John Calvin, as I like to say, they who were the first to really robustly preach sola scriptura, each of them showed the need for an external, visible magisterium, a teaching authority, if you will, that is needed to faithfully interpret Scripture. Except they did not have a divine mandate. Ironically, they wrote millions of words, each of them, to demonstrate why each of their particular views was the correct one. So they didn’t have the divine mandate, but they wrote many words and they demonstrated that, hey, yeah, there is a need for magisterium, but it’s not you, it’s Peter and the papacy, because Jesus, not because you guys, who fell away from the Catholic faith and tried to start something different.
Cy Kellett: Nicholas, got to take a break. Thank you so much for, the call right back with why aren’t you Catholic? On Catholic Answers Live.