Transcript:
Host: We go to Tom in Los Angeles, California listening on the mighty 930 AM Immaculate Heart Radio. Tom, you are on with Trent Horn, what’s your question?
Caller: Yeah, I’ll try to be succinct, and I hope you’ll let me finish before you answer. I appreciate, you guys are extremely wise. I have a problem with the institution of the Catholic Church being intertwined with government politics, and I think that, you know, God set up His Church, and God set up governments, and the role in my view, of what is my understanding, is that God set up governments for one purpose: To dole out justice. And, you know, and then the Church is a separate entity, it’s His body of Christ, okay.
Now, you’re talking a lot about immigration. It’s a classic situation where I think the Catholic institution has really let God down. Because I’m not talking about legal immigration, I’m not talking about people who are here, as, you know, because they’re fleeing war, I’m not talking about–and I’m for immigration, I’m for NEAT immigration. What I’m not for, and what I think God is not for, is illegal immigration, because illegal immigrants are here, and what they’re doing is it’s a form of theft.
Trent: Okay Tom, hang on, just a quick sec, I really tried to let you finish because you asked me to let you finish, but it seems like the point is, you’re objecting to the Catholic Church being so connected to politics. Is that about right, Tom?
Caller: Yeah, and, well, with the illegal immigrants, like I went to the Catholic Church Sanctuary in East LA and there’s prayers, they were asking Trump to do the right thing and let the government–because there’s a lot of the illegal immigrants in that particular Church–
Host: All right, hang on Tom, let’s let Trent give it a shot.
Trent: Yeah Tom, we’ve gone over the issue of immigration, I think, to its satisfaction, throughout this hour, so I don’t want to belabor the point more, that the Church teaches that nations have a right to control and protect their borders and they also have a right to care for migrants as best that they can. And so you’re correct, illegal immigration is a crime, and that crime needs to be managed in a way that respects the dignity of the person and the common good of society. I don’t think anyone disagrees with that.
But your point, though, about, “Well, the Church is too intertwined in politics,” that the state exists to dole out justice, and the Church does its thing apart from that, I don’t think that means that the Church has no involvement with the state whatsoever, and here’s my question: If the state is doing something unjust, should the Church do something about that?
Caller: Yes.
Trent: Okay, we have common ground there, great.
Caller: And also–but the problem is, the Catholic Church, to me in my mind, is bigger than the government, and I think that when people are praying the rosary or praying to Mary to let the government do the right thing, I think what the priest should be saying in the prayer should be, “God, Mary, please,” you know, “forgive me for doing something illegal, and let me have the strength to go back and do things right, because I am taking money, and I’m taking resources from so many, we’ve got–”
Host: Okay, you gotta let Trent address it.
Trent: Yeah let’s…okay. I think what I’ve been hearing a lot in the in the calls this hour is an interesting animus towards those who have immigrated illegally to our country. And I certainly understand the hardship that many people face in that regard, the example of ranchers who suffer violence or damage to their lands. Obviously those things would be wrong, and breaking a country’s laws, there should be consequences for that, I certainly agree. But…well, one, hearing that, another–and once again, if someone wants to correct me later, that’s fine–my understanding is that that immigrants actually pay, they still pay a fair share of taxes back in to the countries where they work, providing for their economies through things like sales tax, other things like this, and don’t collect certain government benefits because of that.
But that’s a separate issue. That’s a separate issue. It seems to me that what I’m hearing from the callers is, “Well if the Church was really Christian, it would tell immigrants to immediately self-deport, or encourage their deportation.” And that’s not a teaching of the Church. That’s up to people to discuss and dialogue about whether that is the most prudent solution for those who exist, you know, those who live illegally in a certain country. That is one solution, but it’s quite forceful to say, “Well, if you were truly Christian, you would promote that solution.” Well, you know, when I look at Jesus in the Gospels, and the love he calls us for others, you know, I don’t see that. What I see is the understanding of what St. Paul says in Galatians 3:28, is that in Christ there’s neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, neither male and female, we’re one in Christ Jesus.
And so what we have to understand, then, is to to respect the dignity of other people, not to infringe on our property rights, not to flagrantly violate the sovereignty of different nations; but at the same time, to simply label a group of people as just, you know, “ne’er-do-wells,” as just a scourge, and to remove them will solve our problems–I’m very skeptical of that approach as well.
But once again, that doesn’t go back to the main teaching of the Church, which I’ve reiterated several times in this broadcast. These are issues of reasonable disagreement about immigration policy Catholics can have and do have, and we should continue to have that dialogue, but let’s let’s not cut it short by saying, “Well, my way on this prudential judgment is the Catholic way, and that’s it.” Sorry, the Church gives us these general principles on issues like immigration, then we have to do the hard work of seeing how they apply, and respect the dignity of all people, regardless, as I said before, of their legal or residential status.