In this clip, Cy Kellett and Catholic apologist Trent Horn tackle a question about the perceived differences in spiritual fruit between Catholics and Protestants. Trent dives into the importance of living out one’s faith authentically, addressing the challenges and misconceptions that can arise when comparing different Christian traditions.
Transcript:
Cy: Don, why aren’t you Catholic?
Caller: Well, the first thing I would want to say is that I realize that the Catholic Church gives very good arguments for all of its dogma, and I have tried my hardest to prove that there’s any error, and I really can’t do it. But I take a step back and I analyze the fruit that I see in Catholics and Catholic priests, and I look at Protestants and I say, okay, Protestants do have some errors in the way they describe the gospel, but they have first things first. They preach and they emphasize the clear and simple gospel, and they live in that, and they walk in that, and they walk in this knowledge that they have been forgiven. And they have a great love for Jesus, a great gratefulness for Jesus, and they live lives preoccupied with Jesus that I really don’t see in any Catholics except for those Catholics who are converts from evangelicalism, or maybe they’ve been exposed to the charismatic renewal, which is a Protestant movement at heart. And so I can. I can look at it and say, you know, you make really good arguments for the Catholic faith, but I just don’t see that it actually produces any fruit in your life. Well, my Protestant brethren, they really love Jesus.
Trent: But let me. Let’s bring this back here. So your claim is that Protestants exhibit a greater love for Jesus than Catholics because… And I wasn’t clear on how you arrived at that, because they talk about Jesus more. I don’t see how you reach that conclusion.
Caller: Oh, no. I mean, I’ve been at a seminary or I’ve been at a Catholic seminary. I’ve been in a Protestant seminary. I’ve been around very devout conservative Protestants and Catholics. And there is a certain preoccupation with God and with obeying his will, a certain sensitivity to sin. You can tell in the sense of humor what kind of jokes people laugh at.
Trent: Are you talking about among Catholics?
Caller: It’s very clear, you know, when the kind of lives people live. And it’s just very clear that Protestants, you know, good evangelical ones, they really live this with faith. And Catholics, even the devout ones, it’s not really there.
Trent: Would you admit that there’s a problem that comes from, in sociology, things like sample sizes that… How would you know that this is the case? I mean, it sounds like you’re making a generalization based on your personal interactions with Protestants and Catholics, but there’s millions and millions of believers in both of these faiths. How do you know that your generalization is representative? It might be skewed.
Caller: Well, I’ve spent a lot of time watching EWTN and listening to Catholic Answers, and it’s actually very consistent among converts. They say, you know what, I first met Jesus by some evangelicals who are on fire for the Lord. And they say, praise God and thank you for my background with these evangelicals. And now I’m in the Catholic Church in the fullness of the faith, and you can see that everyone’s aware of…
But there’s that convert, you know, and I’ve been. I’ve been, you know, tempted to become Catholic at times. And I think, you know what, maybe, you know, this evangelical fire…
Trent: Well, let me. Let’s go back a little bit, Don, because I think there’s two problems with the argument. One would be a factual one. I would say that there are untold numbers of Catholics who are deeply in love with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, so much so that they go and receive him every day at daily Mass and spend as much time as they can in adoration chapels, simply adoring Jesus, just adoring and being in his presence. So would you say at least those Catholics are pretty on fire and in love with Jesus as much or more so than the evangelicals you describe?
Caller: Some of them, I have been around some who definitely do display the fruits. You know, you can see the look in their eyes. They really know the Lord.
And some of them, it’s kind of a religious thing. And you can see they really don’t. They really don’t know Him.
Trent: But there’s a lot of… But there’s a lot of Protestants that feel that that can be diagnosed that…
Way as well, just every day and remain dead in your sins.
Okay, here’s… Well, there’s… I think we could agree though, a lot of Protestants, you could find a ton of them who are the same way. They’re not authentically regenerated or converted. But here’s my second argument, that if the… Because I believe, like when it comes to evangelism, you know, there’s evangelicals that go out and evangelize. There’s a lot of Catholics that do that. We have the St. Paul Street Evangelization, for example, that go out to public areas and engage in evangelism. I admit for many Catholics that’s an area they need to improve upon. But that doesn’t show their theology is false. Because if we’re judging the truth of a church or whether we should be a part of it based on, let’s say, its missionary zeal, then we should probably be Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses because they do the most missionary or evangelizing work, right?
I mean, I know where that argument’s coming from, but whenever I hear a Catholic say something like that, it just kind of reminds me, like, you don’t really get it. Like we’re saved by…
No, no. But help. Help me understand what I’m not getting, because a… More. You know, there’s Mormons who will evangelize and talk about their… Their love for Jesus, their love for Jesus. They believe the Son of God and they will go door to door and Jehovah’s Witnesses will go door to door. So they’ll have that evangelistic spirit. But if the theology behind it is incorrect, then it doesn’t matter. We’ve got to get to the theology first, right?
Caller: Well, I’m not dismissing the importance of theology, and I would agree with you that oftentimes Protestants do fall into error in the way they describe the gospel. But I wouldn’t lump Protestants… And even your catechism does not lump Protestants in the same boat as Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Trent: No, absolutely not. Protestants are Christians, Mormons, and Jehovah’s Witnesses. Absolutely, you’re correct. But the point that I’m making, the point that I’m making is that if we’re choosing what Christian denomination, what religion to belong to, what church to belong to, it just seems to make sense to me. We should say, well, which church’s teachings about God’s revelation are the most correct? That’s the…
Here’s my question for you. Shouldn’t we ask that question? And then if we find a church that has the most correct theology, the fullness of revelation, and it has other things that need to be reformed, like the need to evangelize, then we should focus on that area, not just on those who are… Who seem to be full of the Spirit and full of a love for the Lord because they could be spreading truths about Jesus that are incorrect about whether it’s Christology like Mormons, or sacramental theology like the Eucharist. Among Protestants, we should find the fullness of the faith and then encourage others to faithfully live it out and evangelize it.
Cy: Give in to that temptation, Don. If you’re tempted to become Catholic, give in because of that fullness. We’d love you to have it. And thank you very much for the call and for sharing your views, but the music’s playing, so I got to go. But we’re going to do this for another hour. So if you’re on the line, stay on the line.