Trent Horn and Cy Kellett talk with a caller who converted from Roman Catholicism to Eastern Orthodoxy.
Transcript:
Trent: Christopher, why did you leave the Catholic Church in the first place? To become Orthodox.
Caller: Honest answer. I guess I would consider myself a very traditional person. And the liturgical state of the modern Catholic Church really to me was a big turn off. I have in the Orthodox Church valid sacraments. I received the Eucharist confession. I’ve got church tradition, I have the history of the Church. We have apostolic succession in our priesthood. So I guess I just don’t see the purpose in going back. I like to say I was an EWTN convert, so I used to watch EWTN and look at the Mass and think, wow, this is so beautiful. And then what I found on the ground, day-to-day parish life in the Catholic Church was so different from what I was reading about in the historical Catholic Church.
Trent: Yeah, I found that it reminds me of a tract I read from a traditional Catholic talking about, here’s the Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo, the New Order Mass post Vatican II. And this is someone who’s very traditional. So they had a picture of people praying next to an organ, an animated cartoon, like a little drawing. And then on the other side it was Novus Ordo Mass and it was this drawing of like people sitting around playing guitar. They weren’t even in pews. But I think that, you know, you’re saying around with the guitar and you’re singing hymns that sound like 80s TV show theme songs. Yeah, that can be kind of difficult. I see where you’re coming from, but at the same time, I don’t think it’s a valid reason to go from Catholicism to Orthodoxy because.
I think you and many other people would sense there are significant differences beyond liturgical between Catholics and Orthodox. And also what you desire you can find in the Catholic Church. In many cities, for example, you could find an eparchy and worship at an Eastern Catholic Church there. I mean, it’s almost the same liturgy to the Divine Liturgy you would have at the Eastern Orthodox service to go to a Maronite or a Byzantine Rite or to even go to a Latin rite parish like one of the ones that celebrates the Tridentine Mass.
So I think what you’ll have to do is look and say, well, if I have this, you’d have to take an honest look at really like what’s. If there’s no real difference in Orthodox and Catholic, then there shouldn’t be that big of a deal just going back to being Catholic and finding a church with these liturgies. But I would say that there is a big difference. And for me, Christopher, the biggest difference between Catholics and Orthodox. I mean, this is the key big difference, it does make a difference, is the authority of the Pope. And it’s not simply an academic matter.
It’s funny, I was actually writing a script today about a video called “Why We Need a Pope.” And if you think like the most successful organizations in the world, you know, the successful franchises, governments, civil services, militaries, they always have a branching hierarchy with one leader on top of. There was a scene in *The Office* where Oscar makes a joke about how Michael and Jim are co-managers and Oscar says, what country doesn’t have two presidents? What would Catholicism be without the popes?
And so we see that a single leader makes sense to have organizational structure and clarity and uniformity. And so for me, Christopher, the reason I believe that Christ’s church has that is that if we go back to the Bible, we see Peter has that unique authority over the other apostles that even non-Catholic scholars will admit to, and that that authority in his successors in the Bishop of Rome was identified very early in the history of the church.
And it’s a great benefit, actually to the church to have the Pope who has that authority. Not that he’s some kind of tyrant that can just wield autocratic power, but that you have one person to serve as the pastor over the whole church. Just like in Israel, you had one chief steward over the whole kingdom of God who served under the king. So the analogy would be that in ancient Israel, God is the king, a chief steward is, you know, sorry, there’s. There’s the, you know, the king of the kingdom, he is a chief steward. And then the subjects, Jesus is our king. He’s the king and the kingdom of God here on earth. And he’s given us a chief steward and the successor of St. Peter, and that gives us unity.
Like for one point, I think I bring up. I don’t want to ramble on too long here. I’m sure to get your thoughts. I find it troubling that since the seventh ecumenical council, the Eastern Orthodox cannot call an ecumenical council of all Eastern Orthodox bishops. There never has been one, and no one even thinks there ever could be one in the future. That without that, that single voice from someone having special authority from St. Peter, you lose that unity. And what I’ve seen in the Orthodox, when I was looking at that time, to maybe convert leads to kind of a fuzziness in theology and other things like that.
So I think that God gave us a great gift in the Catholic Church with the Pope to provide that unity and that structure for believers. And so that gives us the fullness of the Church given here to be able to rejoice in. So that’s what I think is makes a big deal to me, and that might be what I would share with you, along with, I think the Church has liturgy that you would find to be very uplifting. So I know I threw a lot out at you. I don’t know, what do you think of all that?
Caller: Oh, no, I appreciate that. Yeah. Perhaps I should have clarified. I mean, the liturgy was like the straw that broke the camel’s back and then many more reasons for converting. I agree that, yes, the ecumenical councils of the earliest church consistently rank Rome first among the churches. That’s obvious. There’s no question about it. But there is still a unity within Orthodoxy, and they have preserved tradition for 2,000 years. And one would say without having a unified head, and yet without that, we have still maintained the valid sacraments, the tradition of the apostles, apostolic succession, even yet without a pope, we have maintained those traditions.
Trent: That’s not necessarily. But, Christopher, that’s not necessarily a virtue, though, to be. Because one could also say in, you know, in spite of this, that I certainly, obviously the Church does not deny that there has been a valid succession of there are valid orders and valid sacraments within the Eastern Orthodox Church. But I would say that the faith that has been given to us, the Catholic or universal faith of the Church, includes much, much more than that. Those are the very basics, but that there are also elements of teaching and understanding, of doctrine that still need to be understood, lived out, to be defined and declared, that you don’t see as much.
You can’t really have that within the Eastern Orthodox like you can in the Catholic Church through things like the declarations from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, through promulgations, both ex cathedra statements from the Pope and encyclicals, apostolic bulls, and, you know, things like that, to be able to provide this fullness, if you will, of understanding what we ought to believe.
So I think that you’ve raised some good points here, but I also think that there’s a lot more for you to be able to consider and not to look at it as is. Have the Eastern Orthodox been able to maintain the sacraments with things that are so minimal? Where is the maximal that God has given us a good book? I would recommend you would be *Rome and the Eastern Churches* by Aidan Nichols. He’s a Dominican. I think he’s a priest. Aidan Nichols, *Rome and the Eastern Churches*. That may help sort out some of the differences there that you’re currently working on. And I’ll pray for you through your discernment and hope our listeners will pray for you as well. Thank you, Christopher.
Caller: God bless. Thank you.
Cy: Plus, I mean, you gotta have a pope because who’s gonna live in the Vatican? I mean, we got the whole thing. That is, is that illogical or does that you don’t find that dispositive?