In this clip, Cy Kellett welcomes Karlo Broussard to discuss why the Pope and priests wear ornate garments and live comfortably. Karlo continues with details on how these practices relate to their role in representing Christ and the significance of beauty in worship.
Transcript:
Caller: I’m Catholic, but I really struggle with this, and I don’t have an answer for my Protestant brothers and sisters for this. Why is it that the Pope and the bishops, when they do function infallibly and they are assumed then to be in Persona Christi? Why is it that they dressed in such ornate and expensive garments and live so comfortably and they are treated with such pomp and circumstance when Jesus himself never dressed that way, never demanded that kind of special privileged treatment, and actually preached against it?
Karlo Broussard: All right, fantastic question, Christy, and thank you for it. So, first of all, you mentioned ornate, expensive garments when they’re functioning within their role as pope and or bishop as bishops right now, that can be parsed out a little bit as well, depending on, like, which function we’re talking about. So if we’re talking about the priest celebrating the liturgy while the expensive garments and the beauty is order to visibly signifying the Persona Christi, that the priest is operating the person of Christ who is God made flesh and who deserves everything. Right. So the importance of the pomp and circumstance with regard to the garments of the priests and even the liturgical setting is to signify the great, the value of the reality that we’re entering into, experiencing and celebrating Jesus himself, the God, man and the heavenly existence. Okay. This is why God instructed Moses to build such an ornate temple in order to signify on earth the grandeurness and majesty of God in heaven. So if we’re talking about that, that would be sort of the approach that I would take in conversation, try to emphasize the beauty here on earth is meant to order us in our minds to become aware of the beauty of God and His majesty. Now, you mentioned also with regard to bishops and priests, l. In luxury. And that’s very important to bring up. And that’s something that we can talk about, but we’re going to have. It’s going to be a bit difficult to define. What do we mean by luxury? Like, where is that boundary that if you’re on this side of the boundary, well, you’re okay, you know, driving this sort of car to get from A to B. That’s okay. Jesus didn’t drive any cars. So must we go around not driving cars to get from place A to place, baby? No. Jesus didn’t wear, you know, clothes like we wear. He didn’t wear a watch. Right. He didn’t wear shoes. He wore sandals. Must we not wear shoes? I don’t think so. So, like, where’s that boundary of what’s going to constitute, you know. Well, this is a form of Luxury that’s imprudent and immodest and not good. But this form of luxury is okay and permitted. That’s going to be extremely difficult to determine. But I am sympathetic to the idea that there are some extremes I think, that we can identify and say, man, that’s a little bit too much. And Sy, we were talking over the break about a recent event where a bishop sold like a 35,000 square foot mansion or something like that.
Cy Kellett: Actually, there’s two of them. Bishop Gallagher in Detroit sold the bishop’s mansion for two and a half million dollars. I guess that’s one of those. You know, the bishops have always lived in that because Detroit had a lot of money at one point, he just sold it and moved into something smaller. But there’s also this story from the Belleville diocese where the bishop, after Bishop Michael McGovern, after the Roe v. Wade decision came down, he said the diocese needs to do more to care for expectant mothers, mothers who are in troubled situation. So he sold his house and he gave the money.
Caller: Beautiful. Beautiful. To helping women in those situations.
Karlo Broussard: Yeah. So, Christy, in that sit, you know, when you got a bishop who has like a 35,000 square foot mansion or something, I mean, that seems to be a bit too much. Right. And so I think it’s a good thing, and I applaud that bishop for selling that in order to live in something more simple. I think we can also see an extreme of luxury. If a priest is going around, you know, driving some 65, $70,000 car or something, that’s going to cause some scandal and he needs to rethink his role as a priest. And I think we can identify those situations, Christie, and say, yeah, in these situations, these bishops and priests, they need to live more simply, not in perfect conformity to Christ, because that would entail not being able to wear our modern clothes and shoes and a watch, et cetera. Right. So we can’t go too far in a literalistic way, but I do think we can be sympathetic. And priests and bishops need to be cognizant and aware of their living situation, the cars they’re driving, and whether it would cause scandal or not to people. Right. Because they are called to a certain degree of simplicity that would be in conformity with the spirit of what Jesus is preaching in the Gospel. And finally, Christy, one last thought. I noted here that you had mentioned that Jesus preached against luxury wealth. It is true that Jesus preached against riches, but he only preached against riches insofar as they lead one to laziness. Say in the Gospel parable where you have the one who gets really wealthy and says eat, drink and be merry. We have everything stored up. Jesus is very condemnatory of that practice because it was an accumulation of wealth in order to be lazy, an accumulation of wealth in order to indulge fleshly desires apart from God’s design. Right. And thinking about the heavenly things, that’s when Jesus condemns riches and wealth. And even Jesus does say that it is difficult to live the Christian life order to the kingdom of God when you have wealth. That doesn’t mean wealth is bad, that just means it can be more difficult because the wealth can be a source of temptation for indulging in things outside of God’s plan or it being the source one that in which somebody sees their happiness and fulfillment. But Jesus did not preach against wealth or riches in and of itself as if being wealthy is bad in and of itself. It’s only when the wealth leads us. We allow it to lead us away from living in accord with, with how God wants us to live. That’s when it becomes sinful and bad.
Cy Kellett: Christy, I love your objection, however, and it’s a subtle one. It’s not just a matter of a simple this doctrine or that, but it’s a kind of generalized is the Church setting the right example in the way her bishops are?
Caller: And that’s a legitimate question to ask. Amen. So I want to come back to you and see where you are after Carlo’s answer. Yeah, like I said, I love my Catholicism and I would feel lost without it. But I, I really struggle so much, Carlo and sty with the wealth that, and the, and the, the luxury that is exhibited in the Church. And I know that it’s a human thing and I follow the Catholic religion because of Christ and not necessarily because of the foibles of the men and women in the, in the Catholic Church. But nonetheless I, I really, really, really struggle with that and I don’t have. I appreciate your answer, but I still don’t feel comfortable with that.
Karlo Broussard: Y understand, Christy. I completely understand how you would be uncomfortable with it. And there’s a legitimate concern there that we need to express to our leaders in order for them to be thinking to themselves, you know, am I setting a good example? One thing to keep in mind to possibly temper the concern, Christy, is to realize that a lot of this stuff is ordered to the purpose for which it exists is to signify the dignity of the office that the Pope holds, the office that the Bishop holds, the office that the priest holds, that’s sort of the order, you know, the design, the purpose for which the pomp and the circumstance exists. I mean, think about it. You know, if you go to a graduation ceremony, everybody, all the kids, all the graduates, they get in these fancy gowns, right? Well, is it order towards just like looking pretty? No. I mean, some, for some, it might be that, but like, they get on these fancy gowns and we have all this fancy, you know, introduction, master of ceremony, and all of these fancy, all of this fancy stuff for graduation ceremonies. But why do we do that? We do that to signify the good of the accomplishment of graduation for the students and to signify the importance of what is going on. Right. And so there’s nothing wrong with visibly using our bodies and everything to enhance the experience of the celebration for certain ceremonies. I mean, just think of weddings, right? We don’t wear tuxedos and wedding garments every day. When we go to the grocery store, we reserve that for wedding vows and the wedding day. Why? Because it signifies the importance of what’s going on. It sort of takes away, if you’re going to go to the wedding, just. And, you know, cut off shorts and flip flops in a muscle shirt, a beach shirt or something. It takes away from the dignity of the reality that is being celebrated. So just trans. In your own mind and your own prayer. Christy, as you’re thinking through this stuff, take look at those examples, graduation ceremonies, military ceremonies or something, right. Or burials, military burials for military personnel or weddings, and think about the principles involved there of what’s going on with all of the pomp and circumstance and what it’s meant for. And then just transfer that to the role of the Pope and the bishops and the priests and what they do when they exercise their ministerial roles. The pomp and the pomp and circumstance is appropriate and fitting in order to signify what’s going on there.
Cy Kellett: I gotta. There’s so many levels to this, Carlo. And I do have to say most of the bishops that we meet, they’re just normal people. Like, they live like normal people. They don’t. I’m thinking of a bishop I met not too long ago in a pretty big city here in the US he rides a motorcycle, he wears a leather jacket, he just hangs out with the people. He’s not. There’s none of this stuff, but there is still way too much of it. As a Catholic, I feel that, like, when I. I don’t know how.
Caller: And that’s a legitimate concern.
Cy Kellett: Yeah. Like when the bishops meet, they go to their retreat or whatnot. And sometimes you read the name of the hotel that the US Bishops are staying in and you just roll your eyes and go, why?
Caller: Yeah. The optics of that are so bad. Yeah. That you’re staying in this five star hotel, I just feel like. Stop it. I have no counter argument to that in particular. That’s exactly what I’m talking about. And I love the fact. Thank you so much, brothers, for being honest about that, because thank you, Cy, for being real and transparent and saying that when you read those things about the bishop staying in five star hotels, that that really bothers you, because that’s exactly what I’m. Right. I’m speaking to. Okay, Absolutely. Thank you, Carlo. I. I love your honesty spot. All right, Christy. God bless you.
Cy Kellett: Thank you, Christy. Let’s send her a book. Let’s send her Carlo’s book. I’ll tell you what, tell her to pick any book she wants from Carlos.