In this episode of Catholic Answers Live, Cy Kellett sits down with Karlo Broussard to explore one of the most honest and difficult questions many Christians face. Karlo unpacks why emotional experience isn’t the final word on truth, and how the Catholic Church offers something deeper than feeling.
Transcript:
Caller: I have this very close friend who recently found himself at home in an evangelical church. He’s very intelligent, and we’ve been having religious conversations. I’m Catholic, but when I talk Catholic doctrine with him, when I send him resources, he says that he will look because he’s curious and he wants to know. But even if he believes everything the Catholic Church teaches and some of the things his pastor is preaching are wrong, he won’t change churches because of that, because where he is right now is why he feels good.
So he says he’s tried a lot of different churches before, both Catholic and Evangelical, and this is the first one that he likes. And if someday he stops liking it, then he will look for another church. So I guess my question is, how would you normally approach someone like this in order to try to convince them there’s maybe something more important than just feeling good, namely the truth?
Yeah, yeah, okay. So that’s how, what I would like your help with.
Karlo: Yeah, so, brother, you actually stole my thunder. I was about to go exactly where you went right at the end there. That it’s not about what we like or don’t like, what makes us feel comfortable or not, or gives us emotional highs or not. The real ultimate question is, is this true?
Now, in one sense, your friend can start that inquiry with individual theological teachings and this church and this community and that community and the Catholic Church, or he can start more generally by asking, what is the true church of Jesus Christ? Did Jesus Christ establish a church? And if so, where is that church to this day? Assuming that Jesus promised his church would be with us until the end of the world?
Those are the sorts of questions, Igor, that you can invite your friend to begin entertaining and then walk with him in trying to answer those questions. And of course, we have all of the resources at catholic.com for free online. And then we have our Catholic Answers bookstore at shop.catholic.com that can assist you in walking with your friend and answering these questions.
Did Jesus establish a church? Yeah, he said, “I’m going to build my church upon this rock” in Matthew 16:18. And then you can explain to your friend that we would exegete that text and interpret that rock to be Peter in light of the immediate context and how Jesus gives Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven, establishing him, as I was talking earlier in the broadcast, as the leader of the Apostolic College and the head and the leader of the church that Jesus is building here on this earth.
And so we see that Jesus establishes a church. He tells us elsewhere that this church will exist until the end of time. He hints at this in Matthew 28, verse 20. St. Paul talks about it in his letter to the Ephesians when he talks about the Church existing from age unto age. And so whatever is part and parcel of the church will always exist until the end of the age.
Peter’s leadership role is part and parcel of the Church. And so therefore, Peter’s leadership role will exist until the end of time. And the only way that can be is to have successors to St. Peter and whatever bishop Frick he died in, which is the Bishop of Rome.
And so, given that explanation, Igor, you can see that, hey, at least from a Catholic perspective, the reason why you ought to be Catholic is because Jesus started the Catholic Church. That’s ultimately the answer that requires justification and defense, a little bit of which I provided already with Matthew 16:18-19.
But that’s sort of the approach, Igor, that you kind of have to take with somebody like this to try to get them to see that it’s not about what you like or dislike. Okay, you might not like your family members, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t your family members. Right? You know, we can’t, like, say, “Oh, well, I’m no longer a member of the family just because I don’t like my family members.”
So it’s about what is true. And the question is, is the Catholic Church the original church of Jesus? We say yes. So the question is, is that true? And if it is true, well, then your friend ought to become Catholic, assuming that he loves Christ. If he doesn’t love Jesus, well, then we got to take a step back and start talking about whether we should love Jesus and believe in him.
But assuming that’s in place, then the ultimate question is, which church did Jesus establish and where is it at today? And if it is the Catholic Church, then out of love for Christ, he ought to be Catholic. What do you think of that, Igor? Was that helpful?
Caller: Yeah, yeah, it was helpful. Thank you. Thank you very much.
Yeah, I think he would normally. That’s a rational approach, but he would normally just. I think he would normally come back and say something like, “I’ve given myself to Christ, and I think that really he really loves me and I love him, and it doesn’t really matter what church I go to.”
And I mean, he keeps asking sometimes how that affects his salvation. I’m trying to be very careful to tread that line, of course, not to say that he’s damning himself or something like that. But, yeah, I don’t know.
Karlo: Okay. All right, well, let me share a couple of thoughts. Let me share a couple of thoughts here, Igor, and see if this will be helpful.
So, two things here. Your friend said, “I’ve given my life to Christ. He loves me, I love Him. So it doesn’t matter which church I belong to.” But wait a minute. If you love Christ, well, wouldn’t it follow that we should belong to the community that he established, to the church that he established?
And I mean, think about this. If he loves me, well, then wouldn’t Jesus want me to belong to that church? Because that’s where I’m going to experience his love the most. And so it actually is the case that it does matter which church we belong to precisely because we love Christ.
So you might want to gently challenge him on that and try to get him to see that love of Christ is the very motivation for why we should want to belong to the church that Jesus established, whatever church that might be.
Now, the second thing you brought up there at the end, and it slipped my mind. I forgot it. I thought I had it in the bag, but I forgot. Oh, yes, his salvation.
Consider this line of approach, Igor. You can share with him and say, “Hey, look, friend, yes, it’s true that it’s possible that you could be saved outside of the Catholic Church if you’re not responsible for your ignorance of the Catholic Church and stuff. That’s possible. But consider this. If the Catholic Church is the church that Jesus gave us, then it would follow from that that all of the gifts that Jesus wills for me to experience and use and have for my salvation are present there.”
In other words, we have all the apples in the basket, all of the gifts, life and truth that Jesus wills for you individually, for you to be saved and to intensify and live out that saving relationship with living life to the full with great joy. The Catholic Church has those gifts.
And so even though it’s possible for you to be saved outside the Catholic Church, under certain conditions, you still want to be Catholic to enjoy and experience all of the gifts that Christ wants you to have and that he wants me to have to experience the Christian life in full.
And so the question becomes, do you want to experience the Christian life in full? And assuming we can presume that the answer would be yes because he loves Christ and he said so, well, then you want to belong to the church that can help you fulfill that desire to live the Christian life to the full.
And that’s, so we would argue, the Catholic Church. If Christ started the Catholic Church, then the Catholic Church would be the answer to that question of providing everything that is needed to live the Christian life to the full.
Igor, thank you so much for your question there. Hopefully, all goes well with your friend. We’ll be praying for him. Praying for you as well.