In this clip, Cy Kellett welcomes Tim Staples to discuss the necessity of baptism for salvation and the role of icons in the Catholic Church. Tim dives into scripture to clarify these often misunderstood topics, providing insights that challenge common beliefs. Don’t miss this enlightening conversation!
Transcript:
Caller: I’ve raised a Baptist and I have, I’ve read a little bit in Catholic theology and I understand that icons are very prevalently used in the church.
Caller: Yeah.
Caller: And raised that, you know, you’re not supposed to, you know, icons is, I know it’s not idolatry. I know there’s a difference between, you know, worship and veneration.
Caller: Right.
Caller: But I’m still unsure, you know, why they’re used and why they’re necessary, even why it’s okay. Yeah.
Tim Staples: Thomas, boy, these are two really important questions when you talk about the use of icons. That was certainly a big one for me because as you know, Thomas, the ten Commandments, which are kind of important. When you say psy, I would say, but number one, thou shalt not make any. And I noticed you said graven images, Right. Thou shalt not make any graven images of any likeness of anything, be it in heaven or earth or under the sea. How in the world can these crazy have all of these icons? Right. Well, Thomas, here’s the key. Two major points. Number one, God did not condemn there the making of icons or statues. He simply did not. In fact, the first commandment doesn’t condemn making statues. It condemns the. The worship of any image of any likeness of anything, be it in heaven, on the earth or under the sea. And how do we know that? Because that’s found in Exodus chapter 20. If you just flip a couple pages and go to Exodus 25 Thomas, verse 18. You see, Moses is commanded by the same God who gave him the ten Commandments. Just a few pages before he’s commanded to make the ark of the covenant, which would be, you know, placed into the holiest place in all of Israel in the tabernacle, later into the temple itself, the holiest place in all of Israel. And guess what? He commands him to make two enormous, over five foot tall angels, Cherubim made out of beaten gold. And he says, thou shalt make two golden images of these seraphim. And we could go on. You have in the Book of Numbers, chapter 21, verses 8 and 9. Of course, God commands Moses to make a brazen serpent, put it up on a pole. You’ll remember when the children of Israel were in the wilderness and they began to complain and God sends a plague of snakes and they start to die. Moses intercedes for them and God commands him to make a brazen serpent, which we know becomes a type of Jesus Christ in John 3, 13, 14, right. Christ is that raised up on a pole as the answer for sin. And when we look to it, we are healed. So it’s not a matter of having statues. The key is you can’t worship. Now, in the New Testament, what we see, my brother, is we have the ultimate icon in Jesus Christ himself. Why? Because Hebrews 1:3 tells us that he is the express image of. Of God himself. And in Colossians 1:15, he is the icon again. In fact, the Greek word is icon there. It’s akon in Greek. He is the icon of God, the firstborn of all creation, right? For through him, all things were made that were men that were made. And so Christ becomes an icon. Now, follow me on this, Thomas, and I’d like to hear what you have to say. In the Old Testament, God actually tells us why, even though having images, God had no problem with that, he did have a problem with making an image of himself, of God. He says, no, you don’t do that. And why is that? In Deuteronomy 4:16, God tells Moses, because when I brought you out of Egypt, you saw no form of me. So therefore you will make no form, no image, no icon of me. Check that out in Deuteronomy 4. Well, the key, Thomas, is to understand. In the New Testament we have Philippians 2:5, Christ, though being in the form of God. Informe efeu in Greek, right, In the form of God. What does that mean? He was God in the form of God, thought his equality with God not something to be, but he emptied himself, taking upon himself the form of a man or a slave, and then he humbled himself even unto death, death on the cross. And this is the reason why we have opened up for us a whole new economy of statues. Not just of angels, like in Exodus 25, not just of a brazen serpent to remind the people of God of God’s awesome work in overcoming evil in their lives. But now we have an icon of God himself. That brings about an entire new economy. Of course, we have a new covenant. And so even the condemnation by God himself in Deuteronomy 4, don’t make an image of me, goes up in smoke. And it’s okay now to have images of Jesus. We love Jesus. I have images of Jesus all over my house. Si’s been to my house. We got them all over the place. We have them in our churches as well, because we have a new economy of salvation. Does that make sense at all, Thomas?
Caller: It does. I’ve never heard any, any of those, any of that before. I mean, I’ve heard bits and pieces because I’ve listened to Ewtn for a little bit now. So I’ve heard bits and pieces of it, but never in such a concise way of this is why we do this. This is why they’re okay and it makes sense. Well, praise, like I said, not something I’ve tried to work through it.