In this clip, Cy Kellett welcomes Trent Horn to discuss the complexities of the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s role in the Catholic faith. Trent clarifies misconceptions about Mary’s sinlessness and its implications for Jesus’ perfection. Tune in for a deep dive into this fascinating theological topic!
Transcript:
Caller: And I’ve been looking into the Catholic faith only in these past few days, and something that I’m having trouble reconciling is Mary, and more specifically, the Immaculate Conception. Yeah, and I’m confused. If she is sinless, how that is possible, if she needed to be, for Jesus to be perfect, if then her parents would have to be, and their parents would have to be all the way back. How does that make sense?
Trent Horn: Right? This is a very good question, Chloe. And it underscores a common misconception about the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. That’s this. It was not necessary for Mary to be sinless in order for Jesus to be born of a woman. So Galatians 4,4 says that Jesus, in the fullness of time, God sent his son, born of a woman, born under the law. And we know that Jesus is sinless. Hebrews 4:15 says, he is a brother like us in all things, except for sin, that he. He never sinned. So the question is, now, some people have taken the Immaculate Conception, the teaching that Mary was conceived without original sin and then divinely protected from sinning throughout her whole life, that this was necessary for God to be born of her. And that’s. That is not the case. It was not necessary because you’re right. If it were necessary in order for Jesus to be sinless, if. If Mary had to be sinless, then that would mean Mary’s mother, St. Anne, would have to be sinless, her mother would have to be sinless. It’d go all the way back to Eve, and it wouldn’t make sense. You’re absolutely right. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception is not a necessary truth related to the Incarnation. It is a fitting truth. It’s just that it is true because God has revealed it to us in the deposit of faith. And it’s not something that had to be, but it’s just something wonderful that it is. It’s wonderful that it is. My colleague Tim Staples wrote a wonderful book on Mary that I. If you want one book on Mary to understand her more, how she relates to the Catholic faith, I would recommend it. It’s called behold your mother. And he uses an analogy like this. So let’s say that a king were to go into a village, all right? Now, the king could just dress in peasant garb and he could just walk through the village and say hi to people, and that’s something he could do. There’s nothing in his kingship that restricts him from doing that. But there’s something fitting about the king being in his royal garb and having a herald and having a procession because it’s fitting of the nature of his office. It’s the same. We do it all the time in the own offices that we have here in the US I mean like you know, a judge, A judge could just show up in T shirts and a short, T shirts and shorts. And he could do his job. It wouldn’t prevent him from being a judge, but it’s fitting for the very important role that he has. He wears a robe, we call him your honor. So then if you just take those examples that are minor among humans, you extrapolate them to Mary, who is the mother of the creator. I mean, it’s amazing me two things that the God who created the whole universe then at one point was the size of a one celled organism dwelling within the body of his mother, completely dependent on her for his biological existence. The other thing, Chloe, that just totally fascinates me about Mary is that when we get to heaven, we will behold the face of God. We’ll see Jesus, we will behold him for who he is and for all of eternity. There’s going to be a woman next to him, a woman near him who will look like him because they’re related. There will be a woman who, who shares the face of God because God was born of her. Really born of her. I was once talking to a Protestant, Chloe, who. And I asked her, I said, if we did a DNA test on Mary and Jesus, would they be related? And she said, no, they wouldn’t. And I said, so you only see Mary is like a vessel, kind of, not as truly Christ’s mother, biologically related to him. Now I’m not saying you believe that, but I’m just saying I’ve seen it in the Protestant world. So I think that with Mary that it’s something that God chose to do that’s fitting an honor he wanted to bestow on his mother, to honor her, because the commandments say honor your father and mother. Jesus honors his father, who is God, he honors Mary. And then we have evidence of this special grace given to Mary. Luke 1:28 talks about her being full of grace. The church fathers talk about her being the ark of the new covenant, that is, that is not defiled, that is without blemish. So we see very early testimony of this. So is that a helpful start at least on that doctrine, on that dogma?
Caller: Yes. So you see Mary as perfect because God made her so to bring in Jesus with, you know, properly with his glory and to make that known through her, although she just didn’t sin. And does she still need to be saved by Jesus?
Trent Horn: Absolutely. Absolutely. Sure. So, We’ll. We’ll look at this. What human person deserves the highest praise of all human persons? Like, what human person did the most important thing in the history of the world?
Caller: I can see that being Mary.
Trent Horn: Sure. Right. Now, notice the phrase I used here, human person, because Jesus is a divine person. Jesus is a divine person. He’s existed for all eternity. He has a fully human and fully divine nature. Mary is a human person. She’s finite. She is not the creator. She is a creature. But she said yes to God and brought the Word into the. Into our world. In John’s Gospel says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. I’ve been actually to the Basilica of the Annunciation in Nazareth. Have you ever. Have you ever been to the Holy Land?
Caller: No, I haven’t. I was supposed to go summer, but it got canceled.
Trent Horn: When it. When it comes up, you got to go to the Holy Land. Go with a Franciscan group. They got access to all the great sites to be able to get to all the great places. And I was at the Basilica of the Annunciation in Nazareth. And inside that basilica there is a stone archway, cave, a grotto commemorating the place where the Incarnation took place, where Gabriel spoke to Mary. And. And in Latin it says, in Latin, the Word became flesh here. Here, right in this spot. And so what we believe about Mary is the same thing Mary says in Luke chapter one. She says, all generations will call me blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me that she receives. Of all of God’s creatures, she deserves the highest honor because she is the creature God continues to honor. Jesus will always follow the fourth commandment, honor thy father and thy mother, so he will honor Mary for all eternity to love her, and that she is the first disciple. She was the very first person to say yes, to receive Jesus into her very being. So she’s a model for all of us in that regard. So we give her the highest praise a creature deserves. But that’s still infinitely less than the worship God deserves. But she deserves the highest praise of all human persons. And so she is a model disciple to us. She leads us to Jesus. We ask for her prayers because James 5:16 says the prayers of a righteous person are powerful people who are closer to God. Their prayers are more powerful. James 5:16 proves it. And Mary, God’s mom, is going to be pretty close to God in that respect. And so we believe Mary was preserved without original sin, she still needed to be saved. She could not save herself. But the medieval philosophers put it this way. Imagine someone falling into a hole in the ground or a pit. You could be saved from a pit in one of two ways. If you fell into the pit, stop. Someone reaches in and pulls you out, you’re saved from the pit. The other way you could be saved is as someone is going to fall into the pit, you grab them and keep them from falling in in the first place. You and me are sinners. We fell into the pit of sin. God pulled us out of that through baptism. Mary was special. She was saved before she ever had to fall into the pit by the grace of Christ, merited on the cross that Christ retroactively applied to her because he’s the all powerful God. So Mary needed a savior and Christ did protect. The only reason Mary is without sin is because Christ has given her the grace to make it possible. Mary simply cooperated with God’s grace, just like you and I do. And because Mary is that wonderful model of cooperation with God and a disciple of Christ, the first disciple, we emulate her and we ask her to lead us closer to her son. So is that more helpful of an elaboration?
Caller: Yeah, that makes sense. Thank you, Trent.
Trent Horn: Okay, well. Hey Chloe, stay on the line. I would like to send you. Let’s get your email. I’ll send you a few books. I’ll send you case for Catholicism and also Behold your mother by my friend Tim Staples because it’s chock full of great stuff.