In this clip, Cy Kellett welcomes Tim Staples to discuss the imperfections of the papacy. Tim continues with details about the historical context of popes, the presence of saints, and the role of free will in leadership within the Church.
Transcript:
CAller: I am not Catholic because of the papacy being less than perfect. Within the house of God. Yes. And in the house of God, wouldn’t everything that God touches be closer to being perfect?
Tim Staples: Right. Oh, such a good question. Yes. You know what, brother? This is a very important question. I really thank you for calling. And there’s a couple of things I would say to this. Number one, as a matter of historical fact, in the papacy, we have something like, and I could be wrong on this, 82, I believe, saints among the popes, we have about, what, 265. And we have 82 saints. Now, there were a lot more who were extraordinarily holy, but that’s just the number that are actually saints in the church. We have some great men, courageous men, who aren’t saints yet. Some are in process and whatnot. And so, Peter, while there were some, let’s just say, choice ones. Right. Who were the famous Alexander vi, who happened to have six kids, obviously out of wedlock, and many more like that. Now, when I say many, you know, you’re talking about in a particular period of time, roughly a little less than 10% of the popes over the 265 years. Now, that’s at the high end. 265 popes, not years. 265 popes. Yes. Did I say years? Oh, I meant popes. So, I mean, more likely you’ve probably got about 10 or so who were morally corrupt. That’s a very low number. In fact, that’s a lower percentage than what you had among the apostles, because you had one out of 12 that were bad. And if we’re talking about 10 at the most. Now, I know some argue a little higher number than that 10. You’re talking less than 10%, which would be a less percentage than what you had among the apostles. So I’m just tossing this out, my friend, that just because. And this becomes the most important thing Peter and I want to hear, and I love the fact that his name is Peter. Peter, that I want you to consider. When Jesus established the Church, he did not establish the papacy and the bishopric on the basis of the holiness of the persons that he chose. Jesus was too smart for that, Peter. And why is that? Because God has deigned to give us free will. Just because you are made pope does not mean God is going to override his will for you to have freedom. Look, Peter, God respects our freedom. He respects it so much, he will let us go to hell if we want to. And it doesn’t matter if you’re a pope. A nun, a priest, or if you’re the host of a radio show or the guest on a radio show, God will allow us to walk away from him if we so will it. But what he did do among. Now we’ll focus on the papacy. And we could talk about the bishop’s in union with the Pope. But your question is about the Pope, is he protected them whenever they function as Pope and declare a teaching to the universal church. And you’ll find this in Matthew 16, 18 and 19. Jesus says it. He says, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven. In fact, the context is kind of cool here, Peter. The context was Jesus asking the apostles, who do men say that I am? And the apostles respond, well, some say, you’re Jeremiah, or you’re Elijah, you’re this prophet, that prophet. But who do you say I am? And it’s Peter who responds and says, thou art the Christ, the son of the living God. And it’s then that Jesus says, I say to blessed are you Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood have not revealed this to you, but my Father is in heaven. And I say to you, you are the rock, and upon this rock I will build my church. Notice Peter’s not going to build the church. Jesus is, through Peter, he says, I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heave. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. And we believe Peter because the church is a kingdom. This royal authority given to Peter did not die. With Peter, it continues as long as the kingdom continues on this earth. We have successors of St. Peter. Now, Peter, I’m talking to you, Peter, about Peter. We know Peter the apostle, our first pope, was not perfect. He denied Jesus three times. And even after the resurrection, he had to be rebuked by Paul in Galatians 2:9 for not even living up to his own teaching. But when Peter declared something like he did at the Council of Jerusalem, In Acts chapter 15, especially there, verses 7 through 12, he declares the truth. Everybody shuts up because Peter has spoken. And we see that down through the centuries that the popes, when they exercise the keys of the kingdom, which means when they declare something bound on this earth, right, they declare, I say. And they have to use language to make that clear. They’re basically saying, thus saith God, it doesn’t matter where they are in their moral life at that time. Whoever the Pope is God uses him as his instrument to build his church, not based on the person of Peter and his successors, but based on the promise and power of Jesus Christ. That is so crucial for us to understand, because that’s the way God has deigned to preserve free will. He’s not going to force popes to be good, but he will preserve them from error when they declare truth, like I just said, for the protection of the entire body of Christ. That is the great gift of the papacy. So don’t allow. Here’s my advice. Don’t allow the corruption of an Alexander VI or a Julius II or Julius iii, who are also famously wayward in their moral lives. But understand that this great gift is for the preservation of the unity of the faith, so that all can know the truth. Because without it, my friend, what do you see in Protestantism? Without a magisterium, you end up now with tens of thousands of denominations. In fact, nobody even knows how many denominations there are anymore because there’s new ones started every year. In fact, multiple are started every year because they don’t have anyone that can say, thus saith God. You can have the Scriptures, but if there’s no one to say, thus saith God, this is what the Scriptures mean. You. You have utter and absolute chaos in the Catholic faith. We have one Lord, one faith, one baptism for 2,000 years because of this great gift of the papacy. Does that make sense, Peter?
Caller: Yeah.
Tim Staples: You see why Jesus was smart enough not to build his church upon some dude, but rather to use the dude and his successors as his instruments. That means everything. Otherwise, you’ve got no certainty. You’ve got nothing as a church. I’ll tell you what, if you’d like, Peter, we have a book called Pope Peter which reflects on this doctrine by our colleague Joe Heschmeyer. If you’d like. Hang on the line, we’ll send it to you. All right?