In this clip, Cy Kellett welcomes Trent Horn to discuss why some individuals, like Randy from Alberta, choose not to identify as Catholic. Trent continues with details on how historical injustices do not negate the truth of religious beliefs, particularly the existence of God.
Transcript:
Caller: Yeah. Being a Canadian, it can never be a Catholic or a Christian just for the fact of the way North America was kind of stolen and the persecution that the Native Americans suffered when the Christians and Catholics came here by the millions and took their land.
Trent Horn: What do you, what do you mean that, by that, do you mean when people settled here two or 300 years ago, you wouldn’t, you can’t adopt the belief they have now because of their actions back then?
Caller: You bet
Trent Horn: you, yeah. Okay, would you. So I’m also guessing you wouldn’t belong to any Native American tribe that stole land from another tribe. Well, I am part Native. Native American there, but you are. Okay. Have Native American tribes ever taken land from other tribes? I’m sure they have, yeah. Okay, does that prove that everything they believe in their tribe is false?
Caller: Well, yeah, but Native people, you know, kind of came here for tens of thousands of years and then the Christians and Catholics, that is the Europeans came by the millions.
Trent Horn: Right. Well, so, so Randy. Overran their lands. Right. So Randy, what it seems to be is that, you know, 10,000 years ago there was a land bridge. Then people from Asia came here to North America. Various tribes engaged with one another, sometimes peacefully, sometimes not peacefully. Then you had European settlers that came here that engaged with these tribes, sometimes peacefully, sometimes not peacefully. But to me it doesn’t seem like the actions of someone in the past prove whether what someone believes now or the belief system as a whole is false or not. You know, for example, whatever settlers did 300 years ago, like when it comes to the question of just being a Christian, that doesn’t prove whether Jesus rose from the dead or not. Right. So what do you identify? What is your belief system? Now? How would you describe yourself?
Caller: Well, I’m not a believer in any faith area.
Trent Horn: Okay, well what would it take for you? So do you believe in God? No. Okay, so right off the bat, well, you know, why don’t you believe like the existence of God doesn’t depend on Christian behavior in, you know, in a certain context. So why don’t you believe in God? Well, that’s. Well, because there’s so many and it’s all human beliefs there. But again, it gets back to how the Native Americans were treated. Right? The so called Gods, God forbid, people came here by the millions and pushed them off their lands and there’s a trail of tears. Okay, well Randy, let’s assume, I think that’s a more complicated scenario you’re making it out to, but let’s just assume that you’re right, that Christians acted horribly 300 years ago. Can a bad person still believe true things? Okay, I’m just asking you a question. Can a bad person still actually have true beliefs?
Caller: Sure.
Trent Horn: Okay. Should we have true beliefs? We as in who? You and I? Should we try to make sure that what we believe is true? Well, yeah. And I believe there’s no God, so I know I’m right. You believe there is. So how do you do?
Caller: Sure.
Caller: And then I want to ask you about that. How do you know there is no God? How do you know that?
Caller: Well, it’s. It. It’s. Man made
Trent Horn: Okay, but you’re just saying the same thing again. You’re saying, I believe there’s no God because God was made up, which is the same as saying there is no God because there is no God. Where’s your evidence? Okay, well, I’m pretty sure I haven’t seen a God or you haven’t seen a God, you know, so. Okay, you may. You can’t see God because he’s immaterial, but you can know God exists based upon effects in the world. So, for example, if a. Let’s say a car showed up in your driveway with a card in the windshield wiper and it says, you know, happy birthday, would you say that someone gave you that car or that it just kind of popped into existence from nothing? Sure. Somebody built it and somebody gave it to me. Okay. Why would you think that? Well, because it’s in your yard. Right. And it’s not just going to pop. You know, things don’t just pop into existence from nothing like that. Sure. So the same. So the same would be true for the universe. If we have scientific evidence and also we have philosophical evidence that the universe came into existence, there was nothing, and now there’s a universe, which is much more impressive than a car that came into existence, you know, 13, 14 billion years ago, Then shouldn’t we apply that same logic and say, hey, there’s a cause behind this, something greater than the universe itself? So where would God come from? Obviously, somebody must have created God. Well, that intuition of yours is helpful. You’re saying, so if something exists, it needs a cause. So that shows us the universe has got to have a cause. Now, what if I asked you this question? Let’s say there’s a bunch of boxcars going down a train, right? In order for a boxcar to go down a train track, what has to pull it? Well, locomotive. Okay, but what’s pulling the locomotive? Well, an engine, right? What’s making the engine go? So my point Here with the analogy is when you ask the question, who made God? That’s sort of like asking what’s pulling the locomotive. God is very different from the universe, just like the locomotive is different from the boxcar. That if something exists or it moves and it changes, or we need a reason to explain that. But our reasons, we just can’t have an infinite number of reasons. Because in the end, if you have an infinite number of reasons, this did this, then this, and this and this, and there’s an infinite chain, you actually don’t explain anything at all. Instead, you need some kind of ultimate explanation that is the cause of everything, but itself is not cause. And that’s kind of the fundamental argument for the existence of God. So. So I tell you what, Randy, we’re going to have to go to a break here soon. Why don’t you stay on the line and our call screener will get your contact information, and I’d like to send you a copy of my book, why We’re Catholic. And you can start right at the beginning. I talk about why you should believe in God, then why you should believe in Jesus, then why you should be Catholic, and you can go through that and see what you think of the reasons. I’ll probably be back on air in, I don’t know, probably about a month or so. And if you read through, you can always call me back and you can discuss what you think of the arguments in there. So please stay on the line and I’d like to send you a copy of why We’re Catholic.