Host Cy Kellett welcomes Trent Horn to talk with an Ex-Catholic
Transcript:
Caller: I grew up Catholic. Now, since I’ve completely broke off from the Church, there’s lots of reasons. By the way, Paul makes it very clear throughout all his letters and how we’re saved, and this is one in Ephesians, basically, are saved through faith, not of works. Least any man should boast, Right? So does it say saved by grace and good works, or saved by grace and baptism? Or does it say saved in grace and making sure to take care of that Holy Communion every weekend? It doesn’t!
Trent Horn: Let me ask you a question. So what is the difference between. What does it look like? What is the difference between being saved by grace and saved by works? Like, what’s the difference between. What is the definition of being saved by grace, and what is the definition of being saved by works to you? What do you think Paul is saying?
Caller: Okay, so when I say works here, I take it as, oh, I went out and I gave to this charity, or I helped this old man, or I did this and that, and I was a good person. So therefore, that. That’s a way of saying, God, you’re in debt to me. You owe me salvation. So when. When I bring that in, I apply that to the Catholic Church. It’s kind of like I’m getting that grace in pieces every weekend by confessing and receiving the Holy Eucharist.
Trent Horn: Sure.
Caller: So that I’m getting rid of my sins. So I’m like, okay, God, I got rid of these sins. So you owe me this. You owe me your grace. And I. I can’t say that because it’s a gift. And to receive a gift, it’s free, and there is nothing I can do to receive it as far as doing something. So by me going up and actually doing something, receiving the bread and wine, I’m doing a work to receive a piece of grace.
Trent Horn: Okay, let me. Let me. Can I break in? I want to clarify what we’re talking about so far. First, I would say that I agree with you. If saved by works, if works are related to salvation in the sense of I do a good work, like helping the poor, and therefore God owes me salvation, you’re absolutely right. God doesn’t owe me squat. Because I am a sinner, anything he gives me is a grace from him. Yeah, he doesn’t owe me anything. But because God is my Father, if you’re baptized, and God is our heavenly Father, and we are united to him through Christ, then when we do good, do good works, God blesses us. He does bless us from them Just like I bless my own children, they don’t earn things from me. Our righteousness can increase in God because we choose to cooperate with his grace to do good works. So I’d agree with you. The church does not teach that we’re saved because I went out and just helped the poor. God has to give me salvation. No, absolutely not. That’s like the Pelagian heresy. We don’t believe that. But I think there could be a contradiction with what you were saying about saved by grace versus works. Because you’re. You are putting it this way, and you feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, that we aren’t saved by. I go and do something and therefore God gives me his grace of salvation, like receiving the Eucharist. So I would say to you, though, how does someone go from being not saved to being saved? They have to do something. Right. Even if they say, jesus, be my Lord and Savior, like we do something in the process. Right? Right.
Caller: Well, you have to believe with all your heart, mind and soul that Jesus is your Lord and Savior. You have to believe in the gospel, which is the death, burial, and resurrection. Right?
Trent Horn: So, okay, well, but that’s you. That’s you doing something.
Caller: Believing. I wouldn’t say it’s me acting or doing something. I’m just going to believe and receive the gift that I can’t work for. So I’m going to receive it and I’m going to take it and I’m going to build upon that foundation that Jesus has built for me, but through good works. Now that I’m saved, then I. Then those works will come into play. And like you were saying, you’ll receive your.
Trent Horn: Do you have to. Do you have to ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins?
Caller: Oh, of course.
Trent Horn: Okay. So that’s. I mean, that’s doing. That’s not just believing. That’s asking Jesus to do. You’re doing something. You’re repenting.
Caller: Repenting, yes. And repenting, I don’t believe is a work. Repenting is actually. It’s the absence of doing something. So by. By repenting or turning away from sin. So therefore you’re not sinning, you’re turning away from it. Metaphorically.
Trent Horn: That doesn’t. I don’t think that makes sense because, like, when I’m asleep, I’m not sinning, but I’m not repenting. Like, repentance is more than just not sinning. It’s purposely expressing sorrow for sin and asking for forgiveness. So I just don’t want us to talk past each other. Because sometimes in Protestants and Catholics talk about this, it’s like, oh, Catholics believe you’re saved by works and Protestants just by grace. No, Catholics believe we are saved by grace. We don’t believe there’s just like a work you can do that guarantees your salvation. And I would say Protestants believe there are things you do to be saved. I think you and I both agree there’s, there’s things you have to do. Whether you want to call them a work or a not or not, you say there’s things that you have to do. So I’ll put it to you this way. Here’s how I would say a Catholic is saved. Let’s take most Catholics, they’re baptized as a baby. So as a baby they received God’s grace. And it’s not through any work they did. They didn’t do anything. And now they’re in a state of grace and they can go to heaven. So all that person needs to do when they receive God’s grace, even as like a baby, they didn’t do anything, is just not walk away from God. And wouldn’t you say that’s the same in your view, that a person is saved as long as they don’t abandon Jesus or walk away from him? It would be similar, right?
Caller: Well, if you’re truly saved, you won’t walk away. If you’re truly saved, you are a child of God and you won’t walk away. You will want to please your Father.
Trent Horn: How do you know that? How do you know that?
Caller: How do you know what, sir?
Trent Horn: That someone who is saved can never. Someone who is given God’s grace and has received salvation can never give that away again. How do you know that?
Caller: Well, you can’t. You can’t lose that salvation. Once you receive it, you’ve received that gift. The Holy Spirit is in you.
Trent Horn: But right.
Caller: But truly say but right.
Trent Horn: But a lot of times you and I like when people give us gifts, like Adam and Eve, for example. Like Adam and Eve got the gift of friendship with God in the garden. Like, they received this gift from God, a free gift from him, and they threw it away. So I just don’t see that one. I would need evidence to show that you can’t lose that gift. And there are scripture passages people put forward to claim that you can’t. But the other is that there appear to be many passages in scripture that say you can walk away from God. In First Timothy 1:19, St. Paul warns Timothy, there are people who made shipwrecks of their faith. I mentioned Another verse earlier, 11 Romans 11:26, where God cuts off people who don’t continue in his kindness. So so I would say that you’d have to, you know, look through those passages. I tell you what, though, why don’t you stay on the line, give our call screener, Chris, your address. I will send you my book, the Case for Catholicism. It has a whole chapter on salvation and a chapter on eternal security, which is what we are talking about. So stay on the line. I will send you the Case for Catholicism. Read it and then call back and we could discuss some of those passages.
Cy Kellett: Thanks, Chris. Why aren’t you Catholic? Is our topic this hour and we’ll continue next hour. You’ll stay for another hour, right? Look, see all those phone calls? You can stay and answer all those people. Lots of people here happy to talk to you.