Transcript:
Host: We go now to Joshua in Norman, Oklahoma. Joshua, you are on with Trent Horn.
Caller: Good afternoon. Yeah, well the first call with Michael about the immigration issue kinda was mine…
Trent: He stole your thunder. But maybe there’s a few remnants left.
Caller: Yeah, so correct me if I’m wrong: did the Pope say that, in essence, it was morally wrong for a nation like the United States to take on…like, it was it was un-Christian for us to take refugees? Was he making a moral judgment on people who wouldn’t do that? And the implication that I got was that, you know, if a person didn’t do that, then of course they’re un-Christian. And that kind of progressive, globalist, and altruistic morality is not, by my definition, Christianity. I don’t even know if it’s the Catholic definition of morality. I was just wanting to get some clarification on that.
Host: Okay. Trent?
Trent: Okay. Well, it’s always tumultuous waters to wander into the debate: “Did the Pope say that?” Because there’s lots of things the Pope is reported to have said, and I’m not familiar with the precise citation you’re speaking of; though from following in the news, I’ve gathered that Pope Francis has said many times that it is–when he says un-Christian, he’s not saying a person is formerly, no longer Christian, has committed apostasy or something like that; but that it violates the spirit of the Christian faith, in particular the love of neighbor, to withhold help from the least among us, which in many cases would include migrants and especially refugees–people who are migrating for the purpose of seeking refuge from some kind of disaster, war, violence, or extreme poverty or things like that.
And I would say that…I would say, Josh, that this is–the core of the Christian faith does come to this, because ultimately, what does it mean to be Christian? It means that God loves us, no matter who we are, because we’re made in His image and His son died on the cross for all of us to come to know Him. So just as God loves each and every one of us, we’re called to love each and every person, including people we don’t necessarily want to love, people we don’t know–Jesus even said we had to love our enemies. That’s crazy. But everyone is made in the image of God, and part of that love is to be able to desire that all people come to know God in that way. So that would include the love of all of our neighbors, including the the immigrant.
I mean, I would say…it was funny you say, “Well is this really Christian?” Are you familiar with Jesus’s parable of the Good Samaritan?
Caller: Yes.
Trent: Well, I mean, I think one could easily retell that story nowadays in many communities, where, you know, there was a man who had been beaten by bandits and the the only one who stopped to help him was an illegal immigrant. Because, I mean, what prompted that story for Jesus to tell the Good Samaritan, was that Jesus was talking essentially to a lawyer, and the lawyer says “What do I have to do to inherit the kingdom of God?” And Jesus says, “Well, you know the commandments: love God, love your neighbor;” and the lawyer wants to ask a very lawyer-ly question: “Yeah, but who is my neighbor?” You know, “If I’m a Jew, do I have to love the Gentiles? They’re not really my neighbor.”
And the point of Christianity is that God chose to reveal himself in the Jewish people, but in the coming of Christ, now God’s love and grace was expanding beyond the Jewish people to the Gentiles, to the whole world. So that includes our care for the immigrant; but it does not preclude– doesn’t mean, “Well, you know, it doesn’t matter, you have to, you know, do everything you can for immigrants, don’t give a second thought to it.” No, you always must do what is prudent, you know, what is best for society; but you shouldn’t simply exclude someone because of where they live or their migration status. Do you see where I’m coming from here?
Caller: I do. I just think it’s a little misguided to kind of narrowly define the only extension of love as “opening up a country.” So, you know, I can love the poor or an immigrant by doing all sorts of things. I don’t have to necessarily open up my my own house to, you know, the homeless to help them.
Trent: Sure. And I would agree, Josh, that we aren’t necessarily–each individual will be called to something different in their state of life. Some people may feel called to open up their homes to refugees or migrants, and others may not. So the point is: how do we live out that call to love our neighbor? Can I ask you a question, though: if we love the poor, and especially a very poor migrant or refugee, how would we express that love to them?
Caller: Well, our country has given more money than any other country in world history. You know, we could support them by, you know, sending food. Sometimes we could, you know, send military support, or the Church could, you know, send some monetary support. There’s different ways to–sanctions, you know, we could put sanctions on…
Trent: Are you–and I agree with you, so it seems to me you agree, the way to show love, like what the Apostle James writes in his letter, is to provide material means. And so it seems you might disagree with others about, “Well, where would that obligation be?” Are you open to, at least, to allowing maybe a limited number of immigrants to settle in this country if that’s the most efficient way to provide that means? Even if it’s a very, let’s say, a very limited number. Are you open to that as a possibility?
Caller: No, and the reason why is because we are already inundated. And we don’t have…we need a time to kind of saturate the immigrants that we already have.
Trent: Josh, how do you know that we’re incapable of welcoming even a few number of more immigrants? How do you know we’re we’re inundated and cannot provide for for anyone else? I’m just curious how did you arrive at that?
Caller: Well, “capability” is not the right question. Of course we could, but that doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do.
Trent: Okay. All right, well unfortunately we’re nearing our break here, but if I had to tie this up, I would say that there are people who are in desperate situations. We can send some supplies to them, but let’s take, for example, refugees: many of them, we can send them supplies, but there’s no nation where they can reside in. At best, they can–many of them simply live in refugee camps, which can be very hostile and difficult places to live.
So I would say that…it’s interesting, I’m curious about this hesitation to want to welcome even a limited number of people, to provide a better life for them and to show that love of God for them in that way. It reminds me, I guess, of a command that was given in the book of Exodus to the Israelites when they were in the promised land; what Exodus 22:21 in that law, it said: “You shall not wrong a stranger or oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.” That especially this country, which was only made possible through, you know, immigrants–obviously there were Native Americans here–through a country built on immigration, you would think that, would we not, in a responsible prudent way, show our love for neighbor by welcoming in those–especially those who are in very very desperate circumstances.
I mean that’s–we can talk more about that after the break, but the Church says we must respect the dignity of migrants, while also respecting prudence and the common good of society. We can find a balance here. Let’s not pick an extreme when it comes to that issue.