In this clip, Cy Kellett welcomes Trent Horn to discuss why some Christians reject Catholicism. Trent addresses the caller’s concerns about following the Holy Spirit over the Pope and clarifies misconceptions about Catholic doctrine and the role of saints.
Transcript:
Caller: I’m not Catholic because I’m a reborn Christian. I don’t follow the Pope. I follow the Holy Spirit as my guide. And I speak to the Lord, not to the confession booth. And I don’t call no Father but the Father up in heaven.
Trent Horn: Okay, so, Mario, it sounds like to me that you’re not Catholic because you think certain Catholic doctrines violate what the Bible says.
Caller: Well, yes, because anything that’s outside of. From the Bible is not of God.
Caller: Anything that’s outside of the Bible is not of God.
Caller: Anything that’s basically. That’s not of God is if. If basically people’s remixing and, you know, as far as what the devil does, he gives 10 truth and 90 lies. So anything that is outside of the Bible is not of God.
Trent Horn: So where does Mario, Mario, where does the Bible say that I. I believe.
Caller: Didn’t I believe? Was it on Daniels that he said anything that is, uh, written outside of the Bible is not of him?
Trent Horn: If I’m correct, that’s not in Daniel. Now, now, at of the book of Revelation that John authored, he said not to alter any of the words, don’t add anything to what he wrote or subtract anything. But what the Catholic Church teaches does not alter scripture in any way. But number one, the Bible never actually teaches that everything we believe as Christians is found only in the Bible. But some of the things that you mentioned, you know, there are in the Bible, and you try to say, well, what the Catholic Church teaches contradicts that. But I would say that’s not the case. I’m happy to discuss maybe, you know, one or two of them with you that you find, because you mentioned a few of them. What do you think is the biggest one that you think the Catholic Church does that contradicts the Bible? The number one thing that’s difficult.
Caller: I’m sorry, go ahead.
Trent Horn: I just want. Let’s just pick one and try to go with that.
Caller: As far as saints, wise, we are saints. We don’t have to be dead to be saints. Saints are, if you look at the definition as Christian believers, so far as that concerned, in our Revelations, he says, patience, be the saints and follow the faith of Jesus. I believe sure. Which is on Revelations. So, you know, far as that. Worshiping dead people as well.
Trent Horn: Well, Mario, let me. Let me address two of those points. Number one, I agree with you that the Bible speaks about Christians as saints, uses the Greek hagio. I believe that we are the holy ones, the sancti, the sanctified, that we are all saints. You know, Paul talks about in his letters to the saints who are in a certain city. The saints you’re speaking about are canonized saints. Those are the ones that the church recognizes to be in heaven now. And I think you and I would agree that Christians who have died in the past, they’re in heaven now. So if some, if someone’s in heaven now, Mario, and they’re with God, um, do you think that if, Let me put it to you this way. If, let’s say a friend of yours says, you know, mara, I’m going to pray for you and ask God to help you with everything you’re doing, my brother, I’m going to pray for you. That person dies and goes to heaven, and they’re in heaven with God. Are they going to stop praying for you, or do you think they’re going to keep praying for you?
Caller: Well, I would pray that they keep praying for me because I, I, I. There’s nothing wrong with that.
Trent Horn: Sure. So, so I guess then my, then if, if we can see that, that it makes sense that the saints are in heaven, they see what’s happening to Christians on earth who are going through a lot. I mean, think about it. If they’re in heaven, they’re not distracted by stuff we’re distracted by, you know, they’re, they’re not sitting around watching Netflix or something. They, what they’re doing is they’re adoring God and they want to serve us by praying for us to God. And they can do that all the time. They love doing that because they’re with Jesus. So for me, if they’re doing that and they’re praying for us and they’re in heaven and they share in God, so they know what’s happening to us down here. That’s why they can pray for certain things, then it would make sense for us to ask them to pray for us. Another caller earlier mentioned this, and I brought up this scripture verse you may find interesting. James 5:16 says that the prayers of holy people are really powerful because. So that verse is hard for people because we think everybody’s prayers are equal. But if you’re a really holy person, if you’re really close to God, your prayers have more of an impact. So a saint in heaven who doesn’t have any sin, their prayers have a lot of impact. So it would make sense then to ask them, you know, ask Mary, the mother of Jesus, the mother of God, to ask St. Peter, St. Paul, St. Timothy, pray for us. You’ve been through what we’ve been through, and pray for Us and then we will continue to pray for others. So would that, would that make sense then? That, you know, if they’re, if they’re in heaven, we can ask them to pray for that. We’re not worshiping them like God, we’re asking them to pray for us because they’re really holy and they’re close to God.
Caller: I, I, I pray to Jesus. Jesus says you can’t get through the Father, but by him, he is the way, the truth and the life. As far as that scripture, you said, being holy, that they’ll pray for us that is alive doesn’t say, well, dead.
Trent Horn: Well, no, no, it says the prayers of holy people are very powerful. Now, the saints in heaven, they’re dead. Like their bodies are in the earth, but their souls are in heaven.
Caller: Right, But I’m not going to go to Jesus. I’m not going to go to somebody else.
Trent Horn: Do you ever ask, But Mario, do you ever ask people on earth to pray for you?
Caller: No, to be honest, I pray to God.
Trent Horn: Okay.
Caller: I asked the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was upon me. I got baptized, changed my life. I was.
Trent Horn: So do you think it was good that in, in 1st Timothy 2:1:4, St. Paul or Paul asks us, the Bible asks us to pray for one another. So it would seem to me if the Bible asks us to pray for one another, then is it okay for us to, instead of asking something for Jesus, like I asked Psy to pray for me? If the Bible tells us we should pray for one another.
Caller: Well, yeah, you’re alive. I mean, I’m talking about that saints. I mean, I’m not gonna bow down and kiss Paul or Peter, the statue that’s in the Vatican.
Caller: Okay.
Caller: I’m bow down and talk to the Lord. It’s a relationship. It’s not a religion. You know, religion will get you to hell. You know, that’s the wolf and sheep clothing, separate the goats from the sheeps, you know, oh, Lord, Lord, I did mighty works in your name. I never knew. You depart from me, workers of iniquity, and that’s how you’re gonna have to separate, you know, and, and how do you separate? It’s by obedience. It’s by going.
Trent Horn: Wait, wait, wait, wait, Mario, I have to ask you this. You’re saying religion will lead you to hell, but what about James 1:27 that says pure and undefiled, religion in the sight of God and our Father is to visit orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself unstained by the world. So how can you say religion Gets us to hell. When James 1:27 says we can have
Caller: pure and undefiled religion, well, that define defined religion. For I did it because relationship. I did it because it’s pure with my heart. And that’s what Jesus wants. Not because you do it for works and deeds, because these alone is not going to get you in. And that’s what’s going on right now. People just do it to feel good. No, no. I do it because that’s the right. You got to do it. It’s natural to me. And that’s when a relationship comes in. I understand what you’re saying, but to me, a religion that Jesus was talking about was a relationship. We don’t want people traditional doing this.
Trent Horn: Mario, Mario, let me ask you just one more question where we have to move on, because this is a very common thing that I hear. Jesus just wants us to have a relationship with him. Where does the Bible say that?
Caller: What? What the Bible. Far as a relationship with the Lord.
Trent Horn: Like he wants us to have a personal relationship with him. That’s our goal as Christians. Where does it say that?
Caller: Well, our goal, our goal is to glorify him.
Caller: No, no.
Caller: Right, but where does it be? Fishermen.
Trent Horn: Right. But if I’m acting as a fisherman, like I’m going out to help people come to know Jesus, that doesn’t mean that my faith is purely in having a relationship with him. In fact, the Bible never uses the phrase personal Lord and Savior or personal relationship with Jesus. What Jesus talks about in order to be saved is he says, you have to be born of water and spirit, which is baptism, unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood. He talks about founding the church on Peter and the Apostles. That to me, that is actually a misrepresentation of Jesus, that it’s a popular Protestant theology that actually doesn’t have a basis in the Bible that people say, well, it’s for this, for glorifying God. Yet when we go to scripture to find things for like just salvation by faith alone or having a personal relationship with Jesus, our Lord and Savior, that’s not how the Bible describes what our faith should be like. It describes it as a corporal faith being part of one church, one baptism, one Lord. And through this sacramental economy, we come to know Jesus through the church he founded that still exists today. So something to think about. And thanks for calling.