In this clip, Cy Kellett welcomes Trent Horn to discuss the Catholic teaching on homosexuality with an ordained minister.
Transcript:
Cy Kellett: All right, Cody in Kalamazoo, Michigan, listening on 91.5 FM. You are up first.
Caller: Your question. Well, it’s not really a question. It’s a comment. And I. Like I said to your call screener, I’m actually an ordained minister and I also have a degree in psychology. I disagree with you. The Bible is not very clear on homosexuality. I’m sorry, but we got to let people into the church if they’re gay, that God made them that way because everything is according to God’s plan.
Trent Horn: Okay, Cody, let’s talk about this. Whether homosexual behavior is a sin. You say you’re an ordained minister with a degree in psychology. Do you have any degrees in theology?
Caller: No, I studied theology, but I decided I switched about halfway through my bachelor’s degree. Okay. And went and got a degree in psychology.
Trent Horn: So when you say the question of whether homosexual behavior is a sin, whether it’s a violation of God’s law, is a theological question.
Caller: Correct. But still, if you read the Bible, it’s not very clear on that.
Trent Horn: Okay. Why do you think the Bible is not clear? Because I guess here’s a. Here’s a question I have for you. Does the Bible ever portray homosexual behavior in a positive light?
Caller: No.
Trent Horn: Okay.
Caller: It also. In. In the Bible, it also says slavery is. Okay.
Trent Horn: Okay.
Caller: So you’re also says stoning your children. Disrespectful.
Trent Horn: Do you think. Do you think the Bible has any authority over our moral lives?
Caller: Yes, I do.
Trent Horn: Okay, so when do you. When do you accept the Bible?
Caller: Most of the negative stuff is in the Old Testament. Not the New Testament. The New Testament. If we talk about Paul letter in Romans, it says their natural attraction. Okay. It clearly says natural attraction, that if they switch from their natural attraction.
Trent Horn: Okay, so you’re talking about what Paul says in Romans, chapter one.
Caller: Thank you. Yeah.
Trent Horn: Okay, well, let’s.
Caller: I couldn’t remember which one it was.
Trent Horn: Okay, well, let’s talk about that. I think that’s an important witness to Christian teaching on homosexuality. So here In Romans chapter one, Paul says in Romans 1:18, the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men. He’s indicting all people, saying that all people are guilty of sin and that these include people who don’t know the Mosaic Law. Because there are some truths that anybody can know just from reason alone. And. And Paul gives two examples in Romans 1. First, in verses 20 through 23, he says that idolatry is wrong. These people should know from reason alone that God is not an idol. And so it says, they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals. And in fact, the language here he talks about is a reference back to the book of Genesis, saying that the creation of God in Genesis was unraveled by the Gentile sin in this way by falling into idolatry. Then the other example he gives in Romans 1:24 is he talks about homosexual behavior. So he says God gave them up in the lust of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than creator. Now that could refer to any kind of sexual immorality, including adultery, fornication. But then he narrows it here in verses 26, 27. For this reason, God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural. And the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another. Men committing shameless acts with men. So it seems clear here, God’s talking. Sorry, Paul is talking about nature and what God created, going all the way back to the book of Genesis, including the natural sexual complementarity that exists between men and women. And God says that in error, the Gentiles gave themselves up to unnatural and therefore sinful means of engaging in sex between two men or two women. What’s wrong with that interpretation? It seems very clear to me.
Caller: But how do we define natural? Because in nature, there are multiple species of animals that have same sex relations, including the bottlenose dolphin, which is more intelligent than most humans.
Trent Horn: That’s true. Dolphins are the only. Well, dolphins are smarter than some humans. And dolphins are the only animals that are known to kill for fun. And some dolphins do naturally do that. Usually they do that with. With porpoises. I’ve seen videos of dolphins murdering porpoises. On porpoise is not an accident. Sorry for the pun there, so I, I couldn’t help. Are they really smarter? I guess they’re smarter than some humans, sure. But to Cody’s point, yes, animals do things in nature. Animals will steal and kill one another. It doesn’t mean that’s right for humans. But what Paul is saying here. Paul is not talking about nature in Greek, parafusen as being something that just happens naturally. He’s saying that God created humans to be a certain way. There’s all kinds of callbacks in this text to the book of Genesis. And so he’s saying that they gave up their natural relation that God made for them between two men or two women. What we ought to naturally do, even though we all have natural inclinations to do sinful things, they engage in these unnatural acts, and that would be wrong. So I’m just trying to understand, Cody, your argument here. Is it just because if someone has a natural inclination, there’s nothing wrong with it.
Caller: It goes back to the Old Testament, which nothing applies in modern Christianity to the Old Testament.
Caller: Well, I’m talking about the New Testament right now.
Caller: Well, you said Genesis. Yeah. Paul refers to. We got to remember that the Bible was written by men, okay? It wasn’t written by God, okay? It was men’s interpretation of God’s word.
Caller: Okay? So when the Bible says love your neighbor as yourself, we don’t have to care about that because it was written by men, okay?
Caller: So wait, wait, wait. Love our neighbor as thyself, okay? So going out there protesting, you know, gay people, that’s loving thy neighbor as themselves. Who’s don’t think so.
Trent Horn: Okay, Cody, here’s the thing. I don’t think your morals come from the Bible. You have your own personal set of morals and you just pick the one. You just choose those that, that. That match with the Bible. Would you say your morals come from your own ideas about morality and not what the Bible teaches?
Caller: No, my. My morals come from the Bible. That’s why I’m a. Okay, I’m going to say I’m a better Christian than most.
Caller: Okay? So when the Bible says, for example, in Mark, chapter 10, Jesus says that remarriage after divorce is adultery, now do you think Jesus is God?
Caller: Jesus is the Son of God.
Caller: Is he just as divine as the Father?
Caller: That’s a trick question, but no, he’s not.
Trent Horn: Well, that’s interesting, because Christians are people who believe Jesus is God. So that was funny when you said, you know, well, you’re a better Christian than other people, because the definition of a Christian is someone who believes that Jesus is God. But here’s the thing. So there. The Bible teaches very clearly that Jesus, I would hope you hold in some esteem, even if you don’t think he’s God, says that remarriage after divorce is adultery. Are you willing to accept that biblical teaching?
Caller: Yes, because that’s clear.
Caller: Okay. So if any. So if someone is divorced and Then they remarry. That’s adultery. And adultery is a sin.
Caller: Correct.
Caller: Okay, well, I’m glad that we have agreement there, but I don’t see why that’s clear. But not in Romans, chapter one. What about in Romans one? Why is that not clear when Paul says that? When he indicted indicts two men or two women for engaging in an unnatural act that goes against God’s plan of creation.
Caller: But do we know that’s God’s plan of creation?
Caller: So do you?
Caller: Have you heard that from God himself?
Caller: Well, how about this? You. So you’re willing to accept the teaching on adultery because Jesus said so.
Caller: Correct.
Trent Horn: Okay, so. And why did Jesus say that adultery after. Sorry. That remarriage after divorce is adultery. Do you remember what he cited before that in his answer?
Caller: But that doesn’t go with this topic. Okay.
Trent Horn: No, no, it actually. It actually does because I want to go back to Jesus. And the Pharisees asked him about divorce. They said, look, the book of Deuteronomy says we can divorce our spouse. We’re just not sure what circumstances allow for that. And then Jesus said, no, remarriage after divorce is adultery. You can’t get a divorce. And he cited a book of the Bible to defend his answer. Do you know which book that was?
Caller: No, I don’t remember.
Caller: He cited the book of Genesis.
Caller: But that’s Jesus, not Paul.
Caller: Right?
Caller: Talking about Paul here, not Jesus.
Caller: But here’s the thing. Since you don’t seem to care so much about what Paul says, I’m going back to Jesus. And Jesus restricted sexual ethics to the one flesh union that exists between men and women. He grounded that in the book of Genesis and God’s creation ethic from that book. So Genesis is relevant to us, even though you don’t consider the Old Testament to be relevant.
Caller: Hold on. So you’re saying God. We’re made in the image of God, correct?
Trent Horn: That’s right.
Caller: So technically, God’s gay.
Trent Horn: What do you mean by that? You’re saying that because some people choose to engage in sin, God is a sinner. That doesn’t make sense. God made us to be men and women in his image because of the fall of man. We have inclinations to do sinful things, including sinful sexual behaviors. But those sins do not define us. What defines us is the holiness that God calls us to. If you’d like more, check out my podcast