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Does abuse or distortion in devotion to the saints justify abandoning the practice altogether? In this episode, Karlo Broussard respond sto Gavin Ortlund’s critique of Marian prayers and show why problematic expressions—real or perceived—don’t undermine the Catholic practice of invoking the saints. I also explain why the expressions that cause him concern aren’t in fact problematic, when understood properly.
TRANSCRIPT:
When it comes to the intercession of the saints, there’s no shortage of objections. You’ve probably heard the usual ones: it undermines Jesus’ unique mediation, invoking the saints is necromancy, they can’t hear us, and so on.
But there’s another objection that doesn’t get as much attention—one that focuses not so much on theory, but on practice. The claim is that distortions or abuses have crept into the practice of invoking the saints, especially when it comes to Mary.
So how should we think about that kind of challenge? That’s what we’re gonna talk about today.
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Alright, so as I mentioned, some Protestants challenge the Catholic practice of invoking the saints by arguing that abuses have crept into the practice. One example here is Protestant apologist Gavin Ortlund.
In his video, “Praying to the Saints: A Protestant Critique,” Ortlund argues that when we look at how the prayers to the saints actually played out in medieval piety, we find that the practice led to serious distortions. He highlights two main types.
First, there are soteriological distortions—that’s to say, distortions related to salvation—where certain prayers seem to ascribe to Mary only what Christ can do when it comes to saving us. Second, there are prayers that appear to look to Mary as our ultimate help rather than God, which Ortlund sees as a threat to God’s sovereignty.
Because of these distortions, Ortlund explains, Protestants like himself are concerned about the practice of invoking the saints. And for him, that concern—especially when combined with what he sees as a lack of New Testament and early Christian evidence for the practice—is enough reason to avoid the practice altogether.
Now, we’re going to tackle the question of early Christian evidence in another episode. For now, I want to focus specifically on Ortlund’s concerns about these alleged distortions and his reasoning about them.
Let’s start with the first category—the so-called soteriological distortions, which seem to be Ortlund’s primary concern. Here’s a few clips from his video:
[VIDEO]
i’ve canvassed a number of hymns 6:04 breviaries prayer books and other 6:06 liturgical texts from the late medieval 6:09 era that did have the approval 6:11 officially of the roman catholic church 6:13 and were in common usage among the laity 6:15 and i want us to to feel a bit how 6:19 prayers to the saints 6:20 were actually 6:22 playing out because if we can get some 6:25 common ground of like oh yeah i can see 6:26 how that can go wrong that will help us 6:28 then go forward from there and it will 6:30 maybe make a protestant concern have a 6:32 little bit more sense.
So let me give 6:34 some examples and what i want you to be 6:36 listening for is the way forgiveness 6:39 and the propitiation of god 6:41 works in other words what’s the 6:43 soteriological context that’s 6:45 functioning here in these prayers
“6:47 lord we ask that thou placated by the 6:50 intercession of all thy saints may look 6:52 graciously upon our infirmity and avert 6:54 all the evils which we justly deserve we 6:57 pray thee lord that the merits of 6:59 blessed mary who is both perpetually a 7:01 virgin and the bearer of god may attend 7:04 us and always implore thy forgiveness 7:07 for us” [Cursus Honorum of the Blessed Virgin Mary, According to the Ordinarium of the Church of Hildeshelm].
7:08 note this word forgiveness it’s going to 7:09 come up in a lot of these
“7:11 o noble mary excellent above all 7:14 procure for us forgiveness
o holy virgin mary and all the saints 7:27 and elect of god come aid to me wretched 7:30 one 7:31 now and in the hour of my death and make 7:33 the lord our god propitious to me by 7:35 your merits and prayers”
Ortlund goes on a few minutes later to give more examples of this primary concern of his:
[VIDEO]
……9:45 here’s more examples
“through you 9:48 that’s mary forgiveness is granted to 9:50 the guilty”
“through you grace is 9:52 conferred to the just oh you who are 9:54 more beautiful than the stars and 9:55 blessed above all women placate your son 9:58 and cleanse all faults of the faithful”
10:00 see this is an example of why it’s not 10:03 you can’t do the well it’s a both and 10:04 thing 10:06 the prayer think about those words 10:07 placate your son 10:10 if that’s not at both end because in 10:11 that prayer the son is the one needing 10:14 to be placated by mary 10:16 rather than 10:18 the one who actually has 10:20 fully placated god already
After giving these examples, Ortlund concludes that these invocations are, in his words,
“[VIDEO]
14:42 something that’s inherently wrong”
and are
[VIDEO]
“14:30 full-blown medieval errors.”
Why? Because, according to Ortlund, the theology of salvation within these is flat-out contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Ortlund explains,
[VIDEO]
“it’s 9:33 playing out here in ways that it is 9:35 competitive it is detracting from the 9:37 sufficiency of christ because the 9:39 specific tasks that are the property of 9:42 christ in the gospel are being assigned 9:43 to mary here”
The “specific tasks” that Ortlund has in mind here are things like procuring the forgiveness of sins and propitiating—or placating—God, which Ortlund believes can be done only by Christ through his death on the cross.
So how should we respond?
My response has two parts. First, I want to say something briefly about the general appeal to alleged distortions. Then I’ll respond directly to the supposed distortions themselves.
So to my general response to the “abuse” argument.
Let’s assume, just for sake of argument, that these prayers are distortions. Notice what Ortlund concludes from this assumption: that we shouldn’t invoke the saints at all because such invocations have played out in a way that violates the Bible’s teaching on salvation—namely, that forgiveness comes through the merits of Christ’s death on the cross.
At first glance, it seems that Ortlund is committing what philosophers call an association fallacy. That’s the mistake of assuming that because some things within a category are bad, everything in that category must be bad. If Ortlund were to conclude that all invocations of the saints are violations of the gospel because some are, then he would be guilty of fallacious reasoning.
But, to be fair, Ortlund doesn’t say every invocation of the saints violates the gospel. He argues instead that the practice can lead to violations, and on this basis he chooses not to engage in it.
But here’s the question: why should we reject the practice of invoking the saints simply because some invocations lead to error?
We don’t reject interpreting Scripture just because some interpretations lead people astray. St. Peter himself acknowledges in 2 Peter 3:15-16 that some people distort Paul’s writings to their own destruction. We don’t reject the practice of religion itself just because some people practice it in ways that leads to unjust conflict and violence.
In both cases, we recognize that the problem isn’t the thing itself—it’s not scriptural interpretation itself or religion itself—it’s the misuse or perversion of it.
The same line of reasoning applies to these so-called “distorted” invocations of the saints. If certain invocations are distorted, then it’s those specific requests—and the faulty theology behind them—that are the problem, not the practice of invoking the saints as such. And if that’s the case, there’s no reason to persuade people to abandon the practice entirely. There could still be invocations that are perfectly sound and worthy of Christian practice.
Okay. Up to this point, I’ve been granting, for the sake of argument, Ortlund’s assumption that these requests are actual distortions. But we actually have good reason to think they’re not distortions in the first place.
Remember Ortlund’s main concern: these prayers detract from Christ’s sufficiency by attributing forgiveness of sins or placating God to Mary.
But notice the hidden assumption—namely, that no one besides Christ can in any sense “procure” forgiveness from God—or propitiate or placate him.
If by “procure” Ortlund means primary causality, then we agree. Only Christ is the efficient cause of the forgiveness of sins. But that’s not how these prayers should be understood.
The “procuring” is by way of request. These prayers are simply asking Mary to pray that God would forgive us our sins.
And there’s nothing unbiblical about that.
Paul himself prayers in 2 Timothy 1:18, “May the Lord grant [Onesiphorus] to find mercy from the Lord on that Day [the Day of Judgment].” If Paul can pray for someone’s forgiveness, then Mary can too. And if Mary can do that, then these prayers don’t distort the gospel at all.
The same goes for language about “propitiating” or “placating” God. All that means here is asking God to be favorable to us. If Paul and Mary can ask God to forgive sins—which is one way God is favorable to us—then they can ask God to be favorable to us in other ways.
In fact, Scripture explicitly teaches that believers can cooperate with God in making others more favorable for salvation. Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 7 that a believing spouse can contribute to the salvation of an unbelieving spouse. He writes:
[READ #1]
If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is consecrated through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is consecrated through her husband. . . . Wife, how do you know whether you will save your husband? Husband, how do you know whether you will save your wife? (that’s verses 13-14, and 16)
If believing spouses can “procure” salvation for their unbelieving spouses in this secondary, cooperative sense, then Mary can as well.
So, not only do these prayers fail to violate the gospel, but even if they did, Ortlund’s broader reasoning would still fall short.
Alright! Let’s now turn to Ortlund’s concern over those prayers that seem to put Mary before—or even above—God as our ultimate help.
Here’s Ortlund:
[VIDEO]
10:24 in some of these prayers you get the 10:26 sense that mary is the only one who can 10:28 help me 10:29 for example 10:30 from the prayer of sixtus
“oh queen of 10:33 heaven most gracious mother of your 10:34 offspring do not spurn me i commend 10:36 myself to you alone”
in some passages you 10:39 get the sense that 10:40 the the author is saying you know where 10:43 else could i turn but to mary it’s 10:46 almost like in the psalms where you have 10:47 psalm davidic psalms where david will 10:50 say you know 10:51 i’m out of i’m at the end of my rope who 10:53 who else can deliver me but you o lord 10:55 and yet sentences like that are said to 10:57 marry in fact um there’s an entire re 11:01 uh sort of renovating of the psalms into 11:04 this you can look it up don’t take my 11:06 word for this because i don’t want you 11:07 to think i’m exaggerating look up the 11:09 psalter of the blessed virgin mary which 11:11 is often attributed to bonaventure that 11:13 all the psalms are recast as directed to 11:15 mary it’s amazing
here’s one last 11:17 example i’ll give 11:20 to 11:22 you know accent this point of
“its mary 11:24 alone like we don’t know where else to 11:25 go but to marry
11:27 holy mary perpetual virgin of virgins 11:29 mother of mercy mother of grace hope of 11:32 all the forsaken comforter of all the 11:33 despairing it goes on for quite some 11:35 time the amount the titles given to mary 11:38 are just they couldn’t be more exalted 11:41 because i have been placed in diverse 11:43 evils and anguish on account of my sins 11:46 i do not know to whom to flee save to 11:49 you my lady sweetest virgin mary”
Ortlund concludes his thoughts with this:
[VIDEO]
i don’t 13:18 see anything in the council of trent 13:19 that sufficiently redresses this error 13:22 of thinking that 13:24 mary or another saint is going to give 13:26 you something that really you should be 13:28 looking to 13:29 god alone to give you
So Ortlund’s concern with these prayers is that Mary seems to take the place of God as the ultimate one who can help us, thereby looking to Mary for something only God can give us.
What can we say in response?
Well, as we said in response to the soteriological concerns, even if these were distortions it wouldn’t follow that we should reject the practice of invoking the saints all together, since there could still be invocations that are perfectly sound and worthy of Christian practice.
But more to the point. There’s a key assumption that Ortlund is making here: that when a prayer says Mary is sought “alone,” it means alone in relation to all beings—including God. His comments about David reveal he’s thinking this way. He alludes to the Davidic psalms where David calls upon the Lord as the only one who can deliver him.
Now, I don’t think that’s a reasonable read of these prayers. These prayers are offered by Christians who believe in God as the Creator of all things, including Mary. A more reasonable interpretation is that Mary being sought alone among created beings.
Given her role as Queen of heaven and earth, and as the most powerful intercessor within God’s Kingdom, Catholics naturally turn to her for things that other Christians wouldn’t be able to assist us with. And Protestants shouldn’t have a problem with this because they often turn to their pastors for help that other believers can’t provide.
Moreover, some of this language is poetic and flowery, which intentionally involves a bit of exaggeration. But even without appealing to poetic license, when understood in the way that I’ve explained, there’s no usurpation of God’s sovereignty. Looking to Mary alone among creatures is not the same thing as looking to her for only what God can give us.
So while I genuinely appreciate Ortlund’s thoughtful and charitable engagement with Catholic theology on the practice of invoking the saints, the concerns we’ve looked at today don’t justify a rejection of the practice.
The prayers he cites don’t contain soteriological distortions, and they don’t place Mary in the role of God. Once we slow down and think them through carefully, the objections just don’t stick.
Well, my friends, that’s it for today! If you found this video helpful, make sure to like, subscribe, comment below, and share it with someone who might need to hear this. And for more resources, check out catholic.com and my personal website at karlobroussard.com.
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