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In this episode Trent reveals one doctrine Catholics and Protestants should all agree about.
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Trent Horn (00:00):
Catholics and Protestants disagree on some theological issues, but there’s one issue that it absolutely boggles my mind that we disagree about because Catholics are correct. Now, what is that issue? It’s supporting the Council of Trent podcast by hitting the subscribe button and leaving a comment so we can reach more people. I mean, how could you disagree with that even if you’re not Catholic? But in all seriousness, I did a poll recently and I asked the viewers of this channel what religion they belong to, and 30% of the 43,000 respondents were non-Catholic Christians, most of whom I assume are Protestant. So I’m glad that all of you watch this channel and for your support that makes it possible. It’s why I want to be as fair as possible in giving my reasons for why I’m not Protestant. So the doctrine I’ll talk about in today’s episode is so obviously true that many of my Protestant audience members probably agree with, but it also seems like a fair number of Protestants don’t agree with it.
(00:52):
And that is the teaching on the inequality of sin. Some sins are worse than others and have worse effects on our relationship with God. In Catholic theology, we make a distinction between venial sin that harms our relationship with God and mortal sin that severs this relationship. Lutherans also believe in mortal sin. They just have a more ambiguous concept of which particular sins are mortal, as Lutheran scholar Jordan Cooper explains.
Jordan Cooper (01:17):
Yes, Lutherans do actually believe in mortal sin. Scripture is very clear that there is the possibility of being cut off from Christ and removing yourself from Christ by living in unrepentant sin. When we talk about mortal sin, we are speaking about sin that is continual and unrepentant that drives out faith. And so yes, it is certainly the case that there are certain sins that you give into that are more likely to do that, but we don’t give an exact list of what sins are mortal and what sins are venial.
Trent Horn (01:47):
Many Protestants don’t believe in the concept of mortal sin, but they probably believe there are two types of sin, little sins that are compatible with the Christian life and big sins that are incompatible with the Christian life. But other Protestants say that all sin is equal for God, and they use this idea to make poor criticisms of the traditional Christian belief that salvation can be forsaken. A term I prefer to lost, since you don’t lose your salvation like you lose a pair of car keys. Here’s a video from an ex- user named Danny who writes, “How life is like for those who say you can lose your salvation.” And here’s what he says.
Danny (02:23):
“I lost my salvation and got it back 67 times as I was running errands today, and now I made it back home to my driveway before I lose it again and happen not to make it home and then find myself in eternal torment. First, I repented for yelling at the guy who cut me off. Then I repented for repenting with a bad attitude. Then this slow driver pulled right out in front of me doing five under the speed limit. Gosh, I felt the flesh rise up so bad. So I repented for that too. And then I caught myself judging someone for not using their blinker. So I repented for judging, but then I judged myself for judging. So that’s triple repentance. But anyway, follow for more vlogs about how I fight to stay saved. Maybe I’ll do better tomorrow. Hopefully I make it to tomorrow.
Trent Horn (03:05):
Danny’s criticism only works if all sin has the same effect on those who are united to Christ through God’s grace. It assumes that any sin must be capable of causing us to lose our salvation because all sin has an equal effect on our souls. Now, in one sense, all sin has an equal effect on those who are not united to Christ because without God’s salvation, they are in a state of original sin. An unsaved person does not have the grace that renews their soul and allows them to be adopted children of God. As a result, any sin the person commits results in their damnation. Even if an unsaved person doesn’t commit a sin, such as when he is an infant, that person still lacks God’s grace and so he can’t merit heaven on his own. Heaven can only be given to him through the ordinary means of salvation like baptism or extraordinary means of salvation on God’s part if he died without baptism.
(03:59):
But in another sense, sin has two different effects among those who are believers. As I said before, Catholics believe that there are big mortal sins that sever our relationship with God, and so we must confess our sin to God through sacramental confession to be restored in friendship with him. And there are small venial sins that weaken this relationship, but do not have to be individually confessed. These are the sins James three: two talks about when it says,” We all stumble in many small ways, “which isn’t the same as more serious sins. Once John 5:17 mentions these when it says,” All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. “John may not be talking about what Catholics today mean by mortal sin, but he is certainly referring to the fact that there are two different kinds of sins. And one of those kinds, such as complete apostasy, for example, is mortal or results in a loss of salvation.
(04:50):
Danny’s video makes it seem like any venial sin could cost us our salvation, but that’s not true. The catechism of the Catholic church says,” For a sin to me mortal, three conditions must together be met. Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent. “Now at this point, someone like Danny might say,” Well, how do you know the sin you committed was mortal instead of venial? Your salvation depends on knowing the distinction and it isn’t always clear. “To which I would say,” I know the difference between mortal and venial sins in the same way nearly all Christians know the difference between sins that are compatible with the Christian life, though injure it, and sins that are incompatible with that life. And it is this difference in sin among Christians that is undeniable and Protestants should accept that.
(05:40):
Those who believe salvation cannot be lost might disagree about the effect these two kinds of sins have on us. But deep down, they know the two different types of sins exist. They may not believe in mortal sin causing a loss of salvation, but they do believe in major sin you have to respond to differently than minor sins, and they believe habitual major sin proves you were never saved in the first place, whereas habitual minor sin doesn’t prove the same thing. At least most Protestants think this. In my recent conversation with Taco Talks where you can see this subject on full display, he really didn’t want to admit there were two types of sin. So he bit the bullet and admitted a saved person could habitually engage in minor sins like lying and major sins like murder just at a decreased rate.
Taco Talks (06:29):
Yeah. If their faith was truly in Jesus Christ, then Jesus paid for all of their sins, yes.
Trent Horn (06:33):
Even though they tell a lie once every few months, then in three years, that’s like six or seven lies, whatever it may be, then they’ll still go to heaven. Same thing, converted, believe in Jesus. They murder somebody once every few months. They get hit by a bus three years later, so they’ve murdered like six or seven people. They’ll still go to heaven.
Taco Talks (06:54):
If they truly trust in Jesus Christ, he takes the fullness of their sin upon himself.
Trent Horn (07:00):
Okay. Alrighty. Now there are Protestants who just bite the bullet on this one and say all sins are equal before God, and so it doesn’t matter what sins you commit. You could even become an atheistic serial killer, but as long as you had faith in Jesus, at some point in your life, you will still be saved. This is called free grace theology. It is popularized by people like Robert Wilkin who said,” There is no time requirement on saving faith. Even if a person believes only for a while, he still has eternal life. In his book, eternal security, Charles Stanley says that a Christian will usually seek forgiveness from God if he commits serious sins, but even if he does not, the fact remains that he is forgiven. But even these Protestants find some way to explain the different gravity of sins. For example, they might say that more serious sins will result in a greater loss of rewards in heaven, even though anybody, no matter what sins they commit, will still go to heaven.
(07:56):
But most Protestants believe there are major sins that must be confessed individually, or if they are unconfessed, will reveal that a person was not saved in the first place. That’s the only way to explain why Christians don’t have to confess every sin to God and ask for forgiveness for every single sin, an idea Danny mocks in his video, but they do have to confess some particular serious sins like murder. This behavior only makes sense if you believe there are two types of sins, those that are compatible with the Christian life, but injure it, which Catholics call venial sin, and sins that are incompatible with the Christian life, which Catholics call mortal sins. Now, one might object that the real distinction isn’t between major and minor sins, but between sins that we feel bad about and sins we don’t feel bad about. Here’s Alan Parr explaining how a Christian can know he’s saved, even though he still sins.
Alan Parr (08:48):
But essentially, do you sense that the Holy Spirit is leading you in the decisions that you have to make? Do you sense that he is convicting you of your sin? So whenever you sin and you go against God, do you feel guilt? Do you feel remorse?
Trent Horn (09:00):
But this leads to a ton of problems. First, does par mean we have to feel bad about every single sin we commit? Does Danny have to feel bad about all 67 sins he committed in his morning drive? And if he doesn’t feel bad about all of them, does that mean he isn’t saved? And if he only needs to feel bad about some sins, well, what makes those sins different from all the other sins? Second, this can lead to all kinds of scruples and ironically, a lack of confidence in knowing if we are saved. This Protestant website even says that one of the signs you are still unsaved is that you still find it boring to sit for hours listening to a sermon. Third, does that mean a Christian can habitually commit a sin as long as he just feels bad about it? Suppose, for example, Bob gets mildly annoyed with a driver on his commute once a week, but he feels bad about that.
(09:49):
It sounds like under Par’s definition, Bob can still know that he’s saved even if this sin of impatience has become habitual. But what if once a week Bob picks up a prostitute on his commute home to his wife? He feels bad afterward, but he still does it once a week. I think Parr and most Christians would say he was never saved in the first place, but I thought that all that mattered was feeling bad about your sin, not the kind of sin itself related to its habitual nature. Now, someone might say that Bob is still saved because he can love God even if he still commits sins like adultery. But think about Bob’s wife. If Bob picks up a prostitute each week and he still goes home and says to her, “I love you, honey,” he doesn’t really love his wife. He doesn’t mean those words.
(10:31):
All the kind words he says to his wife mean nothing because he has communicated through his actions that he doesn’t really love her. In the same way, we might say as Christians that we love God, but we can communicate the opposite of that through an act of grave sin, in that we communicate we don’t love God, or at least God is not our ultimate end that we desire. In fact, one older definition of sin is loving the creature more than the creator, which echoes Romans 1:25. “They exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the creator who is blessed forever. Amen. That’s why Isaiah 29:13 says,” This people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips while their hearts are far from me. And our Lord said in the sermon on the mount, not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my father who is in heaven.
(11:23):
“But what about James 2:10, which says,” Whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. “Doesn’t that mean that there is no such thing as a difference between mortal and venial sin because committing any sin is equal to committing every sin? James is not saying all sins are equally wrong. In the previous nine verses, he scolds Christians who show favoritism and choose which men to love like the rich and choose which men to not love like the poor. James says,” If you really fulfill the royal law, according to the scripture, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. You do well, but if you show partiality, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. Christians don’t get to pick and choose who they must love and which moral laws they must follow. That’s why James then says, For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.
(12:15):
For he who said do not commit adultery also said do not kill. If you do not commit adultery but do kill, you have become a transgressor of the law. In other words, a Christian cannot tell God, “So what if I hated my neighbor? At least I loved a bunch of other people. ” Just as he cannot say, “So what if I murdered a guy? At least I didn’t sleep with his wife. The fact that a person keeps some major parts of the moral law, like not committing adultery doesn’t excuse his failure to keep other major parts of the moral law, like not murdering. Jesus even recognized that some people who break minor parts of the law will still go to heaven when he said, Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven.
(13:00):
Now some Protestants balk at the idea of Christians being under any kind of law since they believe that Christ did away with laws, but this is not the case. It’s true that Christ did away with the law of Moses or the law of the Old Covenant. However, the New Testament says we are under a new law in Christ. This is what James calls the royal law and Paul calls the law of Christ in Galatians six: two. Some Protestants might say though that Catholics are being legalistic, trying to parse out just the serious sins as if those were the only ones we need to worry about. They’d say that instead of imitating the Pharisees in this way, we should just trust in Jesus’ radical call to holiness. Now, this is correct in one sense. The person who indulges in venial sins while legalistically avoiding mortal sins is playing a risky game with the devil while not realizing the house always wins in these kinds of arrangements.
(13:49):
People who only worry about mortal sins are engaged in the sin of presumption. They think their minor sins won’t catch up to them and dispose them toward making the fatal choice to do something gravely evil. Grave acts of theft, adultery or murder are almost always preceded by numerous acts that are less grave, but still sinful. Acts like petty theft, lustful looks and hateful anger, acts that damage our moral compass and make us more disposed to choosing grave evil. So we shouldn’t legalistically parse out sins, but we also shouldn’t ignore the difference between major and minor sins. It’s important to know which sins sever our relationship with God and which sins just injure it so we can respond to them appropriately. For example, if you were bitten by a snake, you’d probably want to know if it’s the kind of bite that just causes pain and requires a little ice and rest, or if it’s the kind of bite that contains a venom that can kill you, so you need to get anti-venom treatment fast.
(14:45):
But even if you reject the Catholic doctrine or mortal sin, I would implore you as a Christian to have a robust understanding of there being two kinds of sins, those that are compatible yet injurious to the Christian life and those that are incompatible with the Christian life and require a particular involved response from us that differs from a general response to sin, like saying in our Father, that we would offer for these more common habitual minor sins. And if you found today’s episode helpful or interesting, I’d recommend you check out my new book, Salvation is from the Catholic Church, how Christ uses the church to bring us to him. Thank you guys so much for watching and I hope you have a very blessed day.