Do you feel apprehension about sitting down to read the Old Testament? Franciscan University professor John Bergsma explains why we often feel that way and how we can overcome “Old Testament Anxiety Syndrome”.
Welcome to The Counsel of Trent podcast, a production of Catholic Answers.
Trent Horn:
About a month ago, I got to do two really fun things. First, I got to interview John Bergsma, who is an Old Testament scholar. He’s a biblical scholar, but he specializes in the Old Testament at the Franciscan University of Steubenville. But number two, I was able to interview him at a priest conference where I got to take my five-year-old son, Matthew, for our very first father-son overnight road trip. Super fun. I’ll tell you all about it right now on The Counsel of Trent podcast.
Welcome to the podcast. I am your host, Catholic Answers apologist and speaker Trent Horn. Some friends of ours who were hosting that conference as part of the Napa Institute, cooperating with the St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology, they wanted to visit us up here in Dallas before going down to Austin for the conference, but they weren’t able to come through Dallas. So they invited us to come and see them, and so I decided to take Matthew and do our first father-son road trip.
We drove down there. We got fast food on the way. I just got to hang out and talk with him. We were at the conference. He got to meet a ton of priests and religious and Dr. Scott Hahn and John Bergsma, and then we explored. It was at this resort outside of Austin alongside a lake, so we walked along the lake, throwing rocks, checking out the boats and the marina. It was just really a great time.
Actually, driving down there and back, it’s about a three-hour drive, and so we actually just listened to Laura Ingalls Wilder, Little House in the Big Wood. It’s actually a really good book. It’s really interesting to hear about pioneer life, 19-century life, and it really makes me feel like a giant marshmallow whenever I listen to that, like, “Wow, they were really tough back then, and I freak out just when the internet goes down.”
As we were driving home, I asked Matthew, what was his favorite part of the trip? “What was your favorite part of going on our big trip?” Then he said, “Just getting to spend time with you.” I was like, “Me too. Me too.” Oh, it was great.
While I was there, I was actually able to do an interview for my podcast because Dr. John Bergsma was one of the speakers. We sat down and I asked him about the Old Testament, because for a lot of Catholics, it’s easy to jump into the New Testament, but cracking open the Bible and reading the Old Testament is a lot more daunting. I thought Dr. Bergsma could help us out with that. It was a great interview.
I do apologize, though. It was on location. Dr. Bergsma had an excellent microphone. I was using a lapel mic. I was using another setup, and the lapel mic was just a tad too hot. Nick, our audio engineer, did wonders to fix it. You can still listen to it. It’s not unlistenable, but it’s not at the quality that I prefer. But I still felt this interview was worthwhile to share with you because Dr. Bergsma is awesome. And he’s the one primarily doing the talking, and he had the good microphone.
Just a heads-up. I apologize. Some of the audio quality is not at the highest levels that I prefer here for the podcast, but I didn’t want to deny you the opportunity to listen to this awesome interview. Without further ado, here is my chat with Dr. John Bergsma of the Franciscan University of Steubenville on overcoming our fears of the Old Testament.
Dr. John Bergsma:
I grew up outside the Catholic Church. My father was a U.S. Navy chaplain. We were in what was called Dutch Calvinist tradition, if that means anything to anybody, kind of like Presbyterians with wooden shoes and windmill cookies, basically.
Trent Horn:
Right. You have to wear clogs. God could not have ordained it any other way.
Dr. John Bergsma:
That’s right. It was ordained that, yeah, salvation will be by footwear, wooden footwear in particular.
Anyway, in all seriousness, very devout upbringing, long religious tradition in my family, went to college and seminary to be a minister in that tradition. I was for four or five years. I was a pastor in western Michigan, then went to the University of Notre Dame, ended up becoming Catholic while in my doctoral program in Scripture at University of Notre Dame. Left there for Steubenville in 2004, and I’ve been teaching at the university roughly since then. That’s a little bit of my background. I’ve written a book about the whole process of going from Protestant pastor to Catholic professor. It was called Stunned by Scripture. Our Sunday Visitor if people want more details about that. Yeah, so I teach Scripture at Franciscan University, both Old and New Testament, but I am kind of the Old Testament guy there. I also teach biblical Hebrew when people need that, and I teach electives in the Old Testament.
My good friend Dr. Brant Pitre, our lives were intertwined in our doctoral days at the University of Notre Dame. A few years after getting our doctorates, we were at a conference and decided, you know what, we need a textbook for seminarians and theology students on the Bible that is comparable in depth to what our evangelical Protestant brothers and sisters get at their seminaries and their theological schools. We’re giving little inch-thick trade paperbacks on the Old Testament to our priests, whereas Protestant pastors get a thick book on the Old Testament and another one on the New to prepare themselves.
Trent Horn:
It’s just not enough because, especially since the Second Vatican Council and the renewals of the liturgy, there is more of an emphasis on, for example, in the liturgical text, readings from the Old Testament. So you don’t want to have priests… You have this access now to more of these literary treasures from the Old Testament, but you don’t have the formation to expound upon it.
Dr. John Bergsma:
Yeah, and don’t know what to do with it, don’t know what to do with the first reading, don’t what to do with the psalm. We get sermons that are always either the Gospel or the saint of the day. Pastors don’t feel equipped to pull in the riches of the first reading and, really, the whole Bible.
Trent Horn:
Yeah. Well, I don’t even think it’s… It’s not just pastors. Especially for laypeople, I think there is a hesitancy to want to jump into the Old Testament because you begin and you think, “Where do I even begin?” You start with Genesis, with something that’s familiar, and maybe you start reading Genesis, but then eventually, even once you get past the story of Abraham, or if you persevere, you say, “Okay, I remember Cecil B. DeMille and The Ten Commandments,” or for me, The Prince of Egypt, which is my other favorite adaptation, “Great. If I can make it to the Exodus, I’m going to be great.” Then as soon as you get to Leviticus Chapter 1, “I am just completely lost. What is a cereal offering? Are we getting Raisin Bran out here? What’s going on here?”
Let’s talk a little bit about some of the issues that I think that arise as to why Catholics have more of a hesitancy to the Old Testament than the New Testament. I think one of them is there’s a big cultural difference between the world of the Old Testament and the world of the New Testament. They think the world of the New Testament is Second Temple Judaism. God’s people are in a Roman-occupied state under the Roman empire in the 1st century AD. But then if you compare in the Old Testament, there are different kingdoms you will go through based on who’s the occupier. Then, of course, if you go back far enough, you don’t even have a kingdom. You just have nomadic tribes. You have chieftains.
I would liken it to the idea that it’s easier for you and for us today to read historical fiction about the year 1800. We may not know how a cotton gin works, but we know what living in a city is like. Reading historical fiction about the year 800 in the Carolingian Empire in Europe would just seem so foreign to us. Do you think that’s a big stumbling block for people when they try to get into the world of the Old Testament, it’s just so much more foreign? Then we talked earlier before the interview about how the modern world has a lot more reflections from the Greco-Roman world than maybe from more ancient Judaism.
Dr. John Bergsma:
Absolutely. Yeah. When we’re dealing with the time of Jesus, the 1st century, there’s a lot of things from that time that we’re still much more culturally comfortable with, and we often don’t even realize it. If we thought a little bit, a lot of our architecture still resembles the way that the Greeks and Romans built their building. Go to Washington D.C. All the monumental architecture, the White House, the Capitol, it’s all influenced by Greek and Roman architectural forms. We’re comfortable with that kind of world. A lot of our law is still based on Roman law. 70% of the English language is based on Latin, the language being spoken in the empire at the time of our Lord’s ministry. We read the Gospels constantly in church. The Gospels are still part of our culture, and we find references to them in popular and classical literature.
We’re still, in a way, living in the legacy of that Greco-Roman world that our Lord ministered to, where the Gospel began. But when we move into the time of Abraham, we’re talking about Semitic nomads speaking languages that are totally unlike English, that are written backwards from the way that we’re used to. They’re wandering around visiting cities that we no longer remember, engaging with cultures that we never talk about nowadays, like the Hittites or the Perizzites and things like this. It is very much more foreign to us, and I think that’s part of the factor of intimidating people from really getting into the Old Testament.
Now, for me, I’m a little bit weird. I like all that exotic stuff in the Old Testament. It’s 2,000 years of history rather than 80 years that you have in the New Testament.
Trent Horn:
That’s the other thing that’s a stumbling block. For people that know the story of Jesus, okay, he was born in 0. No, he wasn’t. He was born a few years before that. But then we have Jesus’ life for 30-odd years, the apostolic age. We can wrap our heads around what happened in that seven years. We start with Jesus’ birth. We end with the fall of Jerusalem. I can wrap my head around that. But then you try to go from Abraham to Jesus. Like you said, it’s about 2,000 years of history. Especially as Americans, we live in a country where we think an old country is one that’s 200 years old.
Dr. John Bergsma:
Right. Yeah, you go to California, and old houses were built in the ’60s. Yeah, especially as Americans. I think it might be even easier in other parts of the world. Obviously, if you’re in Israel, and I go there on pilgrimage usually once a year when there’s not a worldwide pandemic going on, and the Christians who live there, Arabic Christians whose roots in the Catholic Church might go back to the Crusades, they have a much easier time reading the Old Testament because they’re still in that land and some of those cultural traditions have remained unchanged over millennia.
But yeah, it’s foreign to us. And a lot of change goes on between Abraham to, say, King David, and then from King David to the end of the empire and the Babylonian exile. You’ve got all these different world empires coming in and out, different languages. Even the language, Hebrew, that the Old Testament is written in changes quite a bit from the earlier books to the later books, because you’re dealing with a long period. And different genres, Trent.
Everybody makes a resolution to read the Bible through in a year. They start in January. They maybe make it through Genesis and Exodus. Nobody makes it through Leviticus. That’s the swamp. That’s the mud in the tractor pull that drags the whole rig down, and you can’t make any headway. And why is that? Because you hit Leviticus and it’s really more like canon law than it is Bible stories.
Trent Horn:
It would be like if we said, “All right, here’s a reading plan to understand the Catholic faith.” Then you start with, “Here are the stories of… Read the Confessions, then read a work of St. Francis of Assisi. Now read the 1917 Pio-Benedictine Code of Canon Law, not even the ’83 code. Let’s just try the 1917 code or before.” You would feel so bogged down. So let’s talk, as a practical matter, what’s a practical way for Catholics to wrap their heads around the big picture so they can at least understand the historical trajectory?
Dr. John Bergsma:
Yeah. The most practical way is to buy my book Bible Basics for Catholics.
Trent Horn:
I will not fault you for selling a book. I have nine of them. It’s great to get them out there. Bible Basics for Catholics.
Dr. John Bergsma:
Bible Basics for Catholics, right, where I literally use stick-figure drawings and I draw the backbone of Old Testament history. I draw a little stick figure of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, etc., and we sketch it out visually. Really, that came out of teaching students at Franciscan, Trent, and trying to address that precise problem that we’re talking about. How do you avoid getting just lost in all the detail of the Old Testament? It’s like wandering into a forest. Without a mental map, you’re going to get stuck in the trees and lose your way.
Trent Horn:
Do you know what it reminds me of sometimes when you read the Old Testament? It reminds me of reading Dostoevsky. When you’re reading Brothers Karamazov or Crime and Punishment, you get all of these names you’ve never heard of before that have 13 letters in them, and you have to start taking… When you read Dostoevsky, you have to take notes because some people are referred to by two different names-
Dr. John Bergsma:
Or more.
Trent Horn:
… which also happens in the Bible. Then you have to start taking… When you read Russian fiction literature, you have to take notes to keep track of these places and people, make these-
Dr. John Bergsma:
Make a little diagram. He’s the son of whoever and the husband of whomever. You’ve got to try to keep it straight. It is like that when you… You need a little bit of a mental map, and so I wrote that book for that purpose.
It is useful to get a little guidebook. Mine is not the only. My little book isn’t the only one. Other people had written… Dr. Hahn has a great book, A Father Who Keeps His Promises. It’s kind of like a guidebook through a lot of the Old Testament.
Trent Horn:
Or Jeff Cavins’s Bible Timeline.
Dr. John Bergsma:
Fantastic. Jeff Cavins, one of the great things about his program is he gives you the chapters to read that carry the storyline. I’d say the first time through, don’t even bother with Leviticus. Nothing happens in it. It’s rules on sacrifice and so on. It will be of benefit to you later in your development.
Trent Horn:
Well, I think the Israelites come across the giants in Leviticus. I think.
Dr. John Bergsma:
No.
Trent Horn:
Or was that Numbers? We sent the-
Dr. John Bergsma:
The spies.
Trent Horn:
Well, I know that was a Hebrew expression, the spies. We sent them into the land.
Dr. John Bergsma:
Numbers 14.
Trent Horn:
Numbers 14. Yeah. Numbers is also one. That’s a census. That’d be like saying, “Read the Catholic directory. Here’s how big the parishes are.” It’d be like trying to read that, trying to read Numbers. But you’re right, in Numbers 14, I love that expression when they go, which atheists always misinterpret, when the scouts went into Canaan, they said, “The people there are so big, we were like grasshoppers to them.”
Dr. John Bergsma:
Right. Yeah. Poetic expression, of course.
Trent Horn:
It is hard. You have to slog through a lot of statistics to get to these little things. But what you’re saying is, and other people have advocated this, when you read the Old Testament, first start with, “Read maybe these historical books in order.” You might say maybe with the Torah or the Pentateuch, the first five books, maybe Genesis, Exodus, partway through Numbers, and Deuteronomy.
Dr. John Bergsma:
Yeah. There’s a selection of chapters even in Exodus you’re kind of lost, the whole tabernacle description.
Trent Horn:
There’s 15 chapters on how to build the-
Dr. John Bergsma:
How to build a tabernacle.
Trent Horn:
The tabernacle. Yeah.
Dr. John Bergsma:
Right, like blueprints for a church that we’re not using at the time. Yeah.
I believe Cavins has a reading guide where he isolates the chapters that give you the storyline, and that’s very helpful. Try to follow the storyline first, and then later you can find out what spiritual and theological benefit are present in some of these other parts of the Old Testament that are more like canon law or instructions for building a sanctuary and so on.
Trent Horn:
I’m going to push back about nothing… There was some episode in Leviticus. Was that where Aaron’s sons were burnt to death?
Dr. John Bergsma:
Yes.
Trent Horn:
I knew something happened in Leviticus.
Here’s my thing. As an apologist, it’s always hard. I wish I could just sit back and enjoy the Bible. I’ve made this analogy that sometimes as an apologist, I feel like the guard on the watchtower, like everybody gets to have fun in the banquet hall and I’m just sitting out there to make sure no one’s firing arrows inside. When I read the Bible, I have to read it to just accommodate, where is someone going to exploit one of its weaknesses? Leviticus, atheists say it’s either boring, or how could God burn Aaron’s sons to death because they offered strange fire? What it probably means is, the word strange there, not that it’s weird fire, it’s the same word to refer to the worship of strange gods. It’s a punishment for idolatry.
That actually brings me to my next question of people’s hesitancy to the Old Testament. A lot of people feel like, “Why is God in such a bad mood? He always seems to be so grumpy in the Old Testament. In the New Testament, He’s not as grumpy anymore. I’d rather just skip to the nicer parts.” Of course, this is a heresy that goes all the back to the early Church, Marcion of Sinope, the heresy of Marcionism, saying the God of the Old Testament was a different, inferior God we should ignore. We still see that kind of Marcionism today. How do we combat this, probably the number one misconception of the Old Testament?
Dr. John Bergsma:
Yeah. It’s due to just a very superficial reading of both the Old and the New Testaments. There is a lot more judgment and call to repentance in the New Testament than most people perceive. Keep in mind that it’s in the New Testament where Jesus is talking about judgment day and people being sent into eternal damnation for not offering a cup of cold water to somebody else. That’s pretty serious stakes going on there.
As Augustine already points out, the stakes are much higher in the New Testament. In the New Testament, eternal damnation is clearly revealed, whereas in the Old Testament, even the punishments that people receive, even people that are executed in the Old Testament, it’s only a temporal punishment. They’re not threatened with eternal loss of the beatific vision.
Trent Horn:
Right. That’s the same point that the author of the Letter to the Hebrews makes in Hebrews Chapter 10, where he says, “Look, the punishment for breaking the old covenant was death. How much worse will it be for the man who profanes the blood of Him who was offered up for the covenant, profaning the blood of the Son of God.” How much worse will it be for someone who defies the covenant under Christ versus the covenant under Moses.
Dr. John Bergsma:
Yeah. When I teach this in class, I say it’s kind of like growing up. God’s people in the Old Testament are like children, and with children, you use quick, immediate physical punishments. Your toddler goes towards the stove, and you slap his hand real quick so he associates, “You don’t do that.” Now, later, when your children are 18 or whatever, if they do something wrong at that point, you’re dealing with the police. If you get pulled over for drunk driving and you realize you may be put away for a number of years, you don’t wipe your brow, “Oh, thank goodness I’m not being slapped on my hands.” You don’t say that because you realize the stakes and the punishment are so much higher.
That’s the case in the New Testament. Again, in a sense, God is saying to his people in the New Testament, “Okay, enough of the patty slapping, enough of the temporal punishments and so on. We’re going to get real here, and we’re going to talk about spiritual realities. We’re going to talk about eternal life and eternal death.” The stakes actually get higher, not less so.
Trent Horn:
I think what’s interesting is people have a hard time grasping that, because they read the Old Testament, about God sending a plague or striking down people, which also, we can get into this here in a second, the language about God’s sovereignty, is God doing this or is He allowing this to happen, but even still, people treating death in the Old Testament as somehow being worse than hell described in the New Testament because people, they have some kind of modernist vaccinated aversion to worrying about hell, like, “Oh, it talks about hell. That’s just hell.” Well, no, it’s not just hell, as if it’s not a real problem. That’s one concern I’ve seen, that people, they get more worried about “he struck down people.” Right, but the physical life is something that is temporal and finite. We have eternal souls. That’s what all of salvation history is preparing us to understand.
Dr. John Bergsma:
Yeah. It’s materialism. It’s the air of our culture breeze, this concept that our physical bodies are all that we have, and so physical comfort, physical pleasure, physical health, these are the ultimate goods in life. It becomes very short-sighted. Even those of us, as Christians, who wouldn’t confess that, who wouldn’t sign on to that intellectually, we’re still influenced by that way of thinking.
Trent Horn:
Right. One last question then to help people understand the Old Testament. I think also this goes back to the earlier point we discussed about the worlds being very different. We can wrap our head around a city-state in ancient Rome operating under municipal government regulations. People dealt with tax man. Still dealing with tax man today, and it’s just as annoying. We can sympathize with that.
But I think especially when you go back to the wandering traditions, that people really… or not the wandering traditions. Well, the first five books, the Torah, the Pentateuch, and the Book of Joshua also, the conquest narratives in Canaan. I think people have a hard time understanding what it’s like to live in a pre-state society, in a nomadic society. We as modern people who can turn a faucet and have water come out… The Romans had that. They had aqueducts. They had plumbing. They had plumbing inventions that would not be rediscovered until Victorian England. And we’re just used to turning on lights, water coming out, calling 911. The world of nomadic Israel, both pre the people of Israel and then during the wandering era, is just so very different. It requires a different response from God. Do you think that’s something that’s important for people to understand?
Dr. John Bergsma:
I think it is, because you’re living in a situation where you’re always at the level of subsistence, and the survival of your family into the next generation is always kind of in doubt. Tolerating destructive behaviors in the community may cause community extinction within a couple of decades, and you’re just gone.
Trent Horn:
Yeah. We take for granted that my kids can be-
Dr. John Bergsma:
No social safety net. No welfare to kick in. If you do stupid things and allow stupidity to be tolerated in your community, you may all die, and that’s it, within 20 years. We don’t understand that.
Trent Horn:
Yeah, because you have famine, blights. All of the other nomadic wandering tribes, their goal is to wipe you out, because the resources are limited.
I did a show recently on a disaster that terrifies me the most. I do free-for-all Fridays, where I talk about all kinds of random stuff. And the disaster that terrifies me the most is a grid-down scenario. Grid down would be if the electrical grid in the United States failed for months on end. There’s three grids in the country, West, East, and Texas. Texas has its own grid. I love it.
Dr. John Bergsma:
That’s great.
Trent Horn:
But it’s possible. In 2003, there was that big blackout in the Northeast. It’s because a Ohio substation was overloaded. If there was a solar flare or a terrorist attack, imagine electricity within thousands of square miles was just gone. No water came out of the pipes. No electricity was turned on. You call the phone, no one answers. No internet. Police aren’t coming. It would start to get very Old Testament very quickly. What people would do is they would create roving gangs. If I need to feed my family, I’ll kill other people to do that. Even in the Old Testament, it says that there was a season for war. The kings would go out. There was just a time dedicated every year for war, basically.
What you’re saying is that these rules, why is it so strict here? Though we’ve seen the rules, actually, under Jesus get stricter for us in the New Testament, the threats are going from the annihilation of God’s people within space and time to preserving their souls for eternity. Do you think that’s a decent assessment?.
Dr. John Bergsma:
Yeah, that’s a fair analogy. Yeah, it’s a really useful way of putting it.
Trent Horn:
Yeah. Well, why don’t you then leave us with what would be some good resources you would recommend, any slate of books, including your own preferably, to help people to overcome their hesitance to the Old Testament and to draw a lot of great spiritual references? Because especially when you read the Church fathers, what’s interesting, they seem more partial to quote the Old Testament than even the New Testament sometimes.
Dr. John Bergsma:
They do. Yeah. They engaged in extensive preaching on the Old Testament. Most of the Bible is the Old Testament, and it was very common among the Church fathers to preach through the Bible. We call that lectio continua. We do a little bit of that in the modern lectionary, but you notice it’s much more selective. They did not skip anything in the age of the fathers.
But yeah, some resources. Okay, I do recommend Jeff Cavins’s stuff, his journey through Scripture. Fantastic stuff. Check out what we have at the St. Paul Center. We’ve got great Bible studies, eight-part, 12-part Bible studies, on various aspects of all the Bible. I wrote Bible Basics for Catholic specifically for trying to reduce that intimidation level. That’s why there’s the whimsical drawings that are scattered all through the books. It’s humorous, kind of lets people take a breath and have a little bit of a laugh and take that tension level down. They’re also short reads. So got Bible Basics.
Also, Psalm Basics, which just takes the Book of Psalms… People forget about the Psalms. They’re part of the Old Testament, and they are beautiful. They’re consoling. We use them all the time in the new covenant. We use them at every Mass virtually. So those are some resources.
A great book by my good friend Dr. Brant Pitre called Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist takes people into the Old Testament through the Eucharist, and seeing how many of the stories that people might be familiar with from the Old Testament really point forward to the Mass and Our Lord in the Most Blessed Sacrament. That’s a great resource as well.
For folks that want something meatier, we mentioned that already, the Catholic Introduction to the Bible: Old Testament from Ignatius Press.
Trent Horn:
It’s great. I love it.
Dr. John Bergsma:
Yeah. It’s 1,060 pages on the entire Old Testament. You don’t have to read it through, but it’s got a section on every book of the Old Testament, so if you’re reading that particular book and trying to understand it, you can use it as a reference book, pull it off the shelf, read what we have to say about that. We try to cover every aspect of every book of the Old Testament that a Catholic would like to know in order to get spiritual fruit out of that book.
Trent Horn:
Perfect. I will add one more book reference, not to be self-serving. I actually have a book called Hard Sayings: A Catholic Approach to Answering Bible Difficulties. That was the third book that I wrote. I wrote it, Dr. Bergsma, because I noticed that there were lots of Bible difficulty books written by Protestants. Lots of them out there. You have Geisler’s book, When Critics Ask. You have Gleason Archer.
Dr. John Bergsma:
I’ve got them on my shelf.
Trent Horn:
Yeah, and they do have many useful things, but then you get problems, like John Chapter 6. Is Jesus saying be a cannibal? Norm will say, “Oh, no, He’s being completely symbolic here.” No, that’s not the way to answer this hard saying. I wouldn’t recommend them for a lay Catholic.
Dr. John Bergsma:
Yeah, they’re not perfectly safe.
Trent Horn:
Exactly. That’s why I set out to write what I think is the most comprehensive book on Bible difficulties, just on the difficulties from a Catholic perspective, Hard Sayings: A Catholic Approach to Answering Bible Difficulties, available at Catholic Answers Press. Be sure to go and check that out as well.
You can also see that at work, the Bible Difficulties, in my debate with Dan Barker. Check it out on the Catholic Answers YouTube. We debated the proposition, does the Christian God exist? Dan is a well-known atheist. In his opening statement, he just cited about 50 problematic Bible verses and said no. Then in the rebuttal, you can see me systematically go through all of them, so be sure to go and check that out.
Dr. Bergsma, thanks so much for stopping by today. Good luck with everything else at the conference, and I pray it goes well.
Dr. John Bergsma:
Absolutely. It’s so good to be on with you, Trent. Thanks a lot.
Trent Horn:
Absolutely. Love to have you back on again.
Thank you all so much for listening, and I hope you have a very blessed day.
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