OG Apologetics and Apostolic Martyrdom (with Sean McDowell)

In this episode Trent sits down with Protestant professor of apologetics Sean McDowell to discuss his family’s apologetic legacy and Sean’s work on the martyrdom of the apostles.

Sean’s website: https://seanmcdowell.org/

The Fate of the Apostles Book: https://a.co/d/002py3Jc

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Sean McDowell (00:00:00):

That place erupted when he said that. May

Josh McDowell (00:00:02):

I read to you from the Book of Revelation chapter one verse 18?

Sean McDowell (00:00:07):

He goes, “What are you talking about? There’s no evidence for that. Give me evidence any of them died as martyrs.”

Trent Horn (00:00:13):

We don’t actually even have to appeal to the martyrdom itself. That’s

Sean McDowell (00:00:17):

Right.

Trent Horn (00:00:17):

We can just appeal to the fact that these are people who were willing to endure the threat of martyrdom. Everyone, welcome to the Council of Trent. My guest today is Sean McDowell, professor of apologetics at the Talbot School of Theology associated with Biola University in Los Angeles. We’re going to be talking about the apostles, Martin and the apostles, apologetics, defending the Christian faith. Sean, welcome to the Council of Trent.

Sean McDowell (00:00:44):

Good to be with you in person. This is fun.

Trent Horn (00:00:46):

I know. The last time I saw you was at Rusalin’s conference, right?

Sean McDowell (00:00:50):

That’s right.

Trent Horn (00:00:50):

Yep. And your son was there kind of getting his chops into it. Is he also doing apologetics, social media?

Sean McDowell (00:00:58):

You know, he’s just started to show a lot of interest in that. He’s actually amazing with social media. He has a knack for it and has helped me and helped some others. And he’s just asked me this summer, “Can I go to some speaking things with you? ” And we’ve done some interviews together. So he might be a third generation McDowell apologist.

Trent Horn (00:01:16):

I need to unpack this for a lot of my listeners, because a lot of them, especially a lot of my Catholic listeners, may not know as much about this, but this was a huge thing for me to be able to talk to you because you’re kind of part of an apologetics dynasty. I’m just going to say it. I got to say it and we got to unpack it. Now, is your son in high school or college?

Sean McDowell (00:01:34):

He is almost 22. He’s in college. He’s at Biola.

Trent Horn (00:01:37):

Okay. So he’s at Biola

Sean McDowell (00:01:38):

Also.

Trent Horn (00:01:39):

Yeah. Okay. Because one of the first, during my conversion experience, I became Christian. Well, I came to believe in the deity of Christ and the Trinity. I was a deist. I believe there was a God out there, but my mom showed me Bible stories when I was a kid and I kind of outgrew just the Sunday school Christianity. I was your insufferable skeptic in junior high, early high school. But then I encountered apologetics on the foundations of the Christian faith, really from the Biola community, Taba School of Theology.

Sean McDowell (00:02:15):

Oh, nice.

Trent Horn (00:02:16):

William Lane Craig stuff, man, JP Moreland. Of

Sean McDowell (00:02:18):

Course, of

Trent Horn (00:02:19):

Course. Scaling the Secular City, then William Lane Craig Debates. So that was 2001 for me. So that was really even a lot of earlier Craig debates. You could only find transcripts.

Sean McDowell (00:02:29):

Yeah. VHS tapes you’d have to track down of early ones. Yeah. Or on

Trent Horn (00:02:33):

The internet, I would spend an hour downloading a two-hour debate watching the blue task bar. I finally get to get this debate and get to listen to it. But those were the things. It was really these Protestant scholars that showed me the fundamentals of the Christian faith. And there was a little book in there, More Than a Carpenter, written by your dad, Josh McDowell. So why don’t you tell our listeners, how was his apologetics journey? What was that? What was his contribution? And then how did you kind of get involved?

Sean McDowell (00:03:05):

It’s a great question. So my dad was born in 1939. He’s 86 years old.

Trent Horn (00:03:10):

Oh, wow.

Sean McDowell (00:03:10):

Which places my grandpa being born in 1898, interestingly enough. It’s kind of crazy. Yeah. But I mean, the story is my dad grew up in a small town in Michigan in about as dysfunctional the family as you’ll find. Oh, wow. So really small town. His dad was the town drunk and he dealt with the shame of that and would pee in his dad’s wine bottle, to be honest. He was angry sometimes. He’d take his dad and just put it in the toilet and flush it. He would actually put a noose around his dad’s neck when he was like 12, leave him in the barn when his friends came over.

Trent Horn (00:03:43):

I know I am having just like … You know one of those things, you have just a total flashback and

Sean McDowell (00:03:47):

It’s

Trent Horn (00:03:48):

Like … When my mom tried to get me introduced into Christianity more, she took me to a Protestant church. I was having a guest speaker talking about, and he told, I’m almost positive that it was your dad.

Sean McDowell (00:04:02):

Oh my goodness. I’m

Trent Horn (00:04:03):

Pretty sure it had to

Sean McDowell (00:04:03):

Be. No

Trent Horn (00:04:03):

Way. Because he told that story. I was 10 years old, so that would’ve been in like, I don’t know, 1995, probably like mid ’90s. I’m sure he was giving talks in on that kind of stuff.

Sean McDowell (00:04:14):

Oh, for sure. That’s the most common talk you would give is his testimony.

Trent Horn (00:04:17):

Yeah. Okay. So I

Sean McDowell (00:04:19):

Heard

Trent Horn (00:04:19):

This

Sean McDowell (00:04:19):

Talk. All right.That’s amazing. It brings you back to that. So dysfunctional family

(00:04:26):

And I guess to frame it for people, we were sitting around maybe a decade ago as a family and my mom was sharing funny stories growing up in Boston. And my sister, Heather, she goes, “Hey dad, share a funny story, good memory you have grown up.” Trent and I get almost emotional thinking about it. He looked at us, he goes, “Kids, I don’t have one.” I was like, “Really a day goes by that I don’t have at least one good memory.” And so traumatic, painful experience growing up. He’s been a super ambitious kind of person, obviously, his whole life, excelled in sports, excelled in making money, excelled in school, but just was miserable. And in college, met some Christians who he described as being just different. They had a joy, they had a peace, asked them what it was. And some Carl’s girl just looked at him and she said, Jesus Christ.

(00:05:17):

And my dad kind of lost his temper a little bit, apologized later. And this is like in the 50s where there was C.S. Lewis, Francis Shaffer and maybe John Warren Montgomery and Geisel were starting. There was really no apologetics books. At

Trent Horn (00:05:30):

Most, I mean Mere Christianity, I

Sean McDowell (00:05:32):

Think the

Trent Horn (00:05:33):

First issue was published in 52 because it was a series of talks given to the RIF in World War II, but for them to come out, there wasn’t … I mean, I don’t know if you were having Billy Graham revivals at that time, but I mean, there weren’t a lot of apologetics for sure.

Sean McDowell (00:05:46):

Yeah. There was not apologetics going on in the Billy Graham crusades and that’s not a critique. It just wasn’t there.

Trent Horn (00:05:51):

Right. People who want to have the latter part of the 20th century, I mean, it’s great. I mean, Craig talks about how Kalami found one article from Stuart Hackett and then he runs with it in the 70s with his dissertation. So your dad’s in the midst though, because he was part of the rising of the wave in that latter part of the 20th century of Christian apologetics.

Sean McDowell (00:06:13):

Interestingly enough, Craig would say Stuart Hackert was one of the first books he read on the evidence for God,

(00:06:19):

But I think it was Evidence Demands of Verdict or the Resurrection Factor, my dad’s case for the resurrection, which was the first time he’s like, “Oh, you can kind of make a case for this. ” And he took it way further more academic, but that was really one of the books that spurred him on. So my dad was challenged to consider this in the 50s, and he actually had enough money from a painting business where he traveled to Europe, went to museums, talked to scholars, professors, trying to prove that Christianity was false. The way he describes it as being surprised by the evidence, which God is attention, but he really attributes the love of God which drew him to the faith and then became a believer, went to Talbot, went to Wheaton and joined Crusade staff and really began in the late 60s, early 70s.

(00:07:07):

Just he had a lot of confidence and energy to go debate Marxists, go debate atheists. He would go to these free speech platforms and he just started doing kind of what Cliff Koneckley’s doing a little bit 20 years earlier doing his kind of thing. I think

Trent Horn (00:07:22):

I recall, I think he debated Ahmed DiDot on the crucifixion. And I love that DiDot is like, is there any single verse where Jesus says, “I was dead and I’m alive and your dad’s like right off bat, Revelation 1:18, man. I once was dead and now I’m alive.” And he was just bam, bam,

Sean McDowell (00:07:39):

Bam. That place erupted when he said that. He said it graciously, but I mean, there’s no way to put it that was devastating for DeDot in that moment.

Ahmed DeDot (00:07:48):

Throughout the length and breadth of the 27 books of the New Testament, there is not a single statement made by Jesus Christ that I was dead and I have come back from the dead.

Josh McDowell (00:08:01):

May I read to you from the Book of Revelation chapter one verse 18? He said, “I am the living one. I was dead and behold, I am alive forevermore.”

Sean McDowell (00:08:21):

But he actually, he prepped for that debate probably for a year is how much he was in South Africa. That was probably mid, early 80s, maybe mid 80s or so. But he started off free speech platform. And then- I

Trent Horn (00:08:33):

Got to just interrupt for my audio. Yeah, no, do it. From my audience, see people, my knowledge of 1980s trivia and lore is not confined just to obscure television shows and movies. It’s also to the apologetics, the groundbreaking that’s going on here that built, that walked so that later generations could run.

Sean McDowell (00:08:53):

Well, yeah, I’m impressed some of the details, that debate, I still had people talk to me about that debate, how formative it was because D Dot was really kind of the goat and the forerunner of modern day Muslim apologetics,

Trent Horn (00:09:07):

So

Sean McDowell (00:09:07):

Debating him in the 80s. Anyways, that was a piece of it. But he started speaking on the evidence when nobody was doing it, Trent. Nobody was speaking on a popular level doing apologetics talks. I mean, quite literally nobody did. And so he was given these talks and he thought, “I’m just going to print out my notes from my research trying to disprove Christianity.” And he printed out and he’s like, “They sold wildfires. People were hungry for this stuff.” And then he thought, “I’m going to put this into a book, which now is evidence that demands a verdict. I’ve helped them update this. ” And it sold millions of copies and no publisher wanted. They’re like, “This won’t sell.” There was no apologetics whether Catholic or Protestant, it wasn’t a thing at that point.

Trent Horn (00:09:50):

Oh, nothing. So I mean, in the 1980s, I mean, I feel like there was a little bit of a resurgence of maybe apologetics for creationism, maybe somebody-

Sean McDowell (00:09:58):

Yeah, that was a big issue. I agree

Trent Horn (00:10:00):

With that. So people arguing for just the existence of God or the falsity of evolution, and you can make those arguments, but you still have to make a separate … Even if you show God exists and evolution is false, a Muslim like Didod could do that.

Sean McDowell (00:10:12):

That’s right.

Trent Horn (00:10:12):

You have to make a separate case for that God revealed himself historically in Jesus. And you’re right. I mean, I think your dad really pushed that first and then you don’t have the academic stuff until, I think Craig’s dissertation, I want to say it was like 89 maybe, which was later as popular book The Son Rises.

Sean McDowell (00:10:30):

Yep. I think it was 89, the assessing the New Testament evidence text. I’ve

Trent Horn (00:10:36):

Got it in there in my office. I love reading the old dissertations are all in typewriter bonds. He

Sean McDowell (00:10:39):

Probably typed it himself.

Trent Horn (00:10:40):

I love it.

Sean McDowell (00:10:41):

I love it. And I could go into probably more detail than you need, but he started speaking, started writing. That book More Than a Carpenter, which now I think it’s like 30 million in print. There was no popular apologetics books to give to people. We take it for granted now.

Trent Horn (00:10:56):

It helped. And even after the 80s, this was early 2000s. It helped me. I picked it up and read it through. I was like,

Sean McDowell (00:11:02):

Okay,

Trent Horn (00:11:02):

There is evidence

Sean McDowell (00:11:03):

Here. It’s amazing. And the reason he wrote that is people kept saying, “Oh, Josh, I wish you were with me with this businessman and two hours to explain who Jesus is. ” And he’s like, “I just need to write a simple book that I can give.” He pulled out a legal pad and wrote it 24 hours straight in a McDonald’s in Chicago, never dreamed it would just help launch kind of an apologetics movement. So anyways, I grew up with a dad who was writing, who was speaking, who was debating, who was passionate, living this, never once said to me, Trent, like, “You should be an apologist.” He never said that. He modeled it. And the narrative I remember was just use your gifts for the Lord. That was it. And I actually went through a doubting period. This would’ve been mid ’90s when I was a student at Biola.

(00:11:51):

And I’m fishing around on the internet because it was like new technology then. I was like, “What is this internet thing?” Totally. Trying to figure it out. And some of the secular atheist web began by taking my dad’s book Evidence Demands Verdict chapter by chapter and responding to it.

Trent Horn (00:12:08):

I remember reading some of it. So during my journey, so my journey would’ve been around the year, I would say around 2001, website I would go to a lot was the secular web

Sean McDowell (00:12:19):

That

Trent Horn (00:12:19):

Jeffrey J. Louder was

Sean McDowell (00:12:20):

Running

Trent Horn (00:12:21):

Internet infidels. And I was always going through the article, then the reply, then the rebuttal, and I’d print them out with the red pen and I’m like, “Well, hold on. That’s kind of a week reply to that. ” And I always felt it was kind … And this is the same today. It’s the same perennial problem

(00:12:39):

That … This is similar why I wrote my book, Why We’re Catholic, because people were like, “I wish there was one book I could just give to people, whatever it might be. ” I was like, “Yeah, we don’t have anything like that. ” I always hate it when it’s like if somebody takes my book Why We’re Catholic or they took more than a carpenter and they’re like, “I’m going to write a 200 page refutation to this. ” And it’s like, dude, come on, this was written for a popular audience, treated as such. Don’t act like you’ve decimated their case. It’s the same that people do with William Lane Craig. They’d be like, “I refuted what he said in that debate. Why don’t you read the 8,000 pages, systematic theology, then come back and say you’ve refuted his

Sean McDowell (00:13:17):

Case.” Totally fair.

Trent Horn (00:13:18):

And I’m sure it’s the same with your stuff. And I’m glad that you have other academic stuff you’ve gone deeper and which we’ll get to soon. So in the mid 90s, you’re going through and you’re dealing with the first internet atheist and scoping a lot of this out.

Sean McDowell (00:13:31):

Yeah. I just fish around the internet. I don’t know what I searched for. I don’t know why, but came across internet infidels who at the time, they were totally cutting edge.

(00:13:43):

I think Richard Carrier was a part of that. I’m trying to remember some of the other atheists that were on board and I’m reading this stuff and that was really the first time in my life. I had read thoughtful skeptics and atheists challenging the apologetics. I mean, to be honest with you, the trend, I don’t know if I would’ve worded it this way, but if somebody asked me, “Why do you think someone’s not a Christian?” I probably would’ve thought, they just haven’t read more than Carpenter. How hard is it? That probably would’ve been the level of my thoughtfulness. And then I’m reading really smart people that are raising objections I couldn’t answer. It was intellectually and existentially unsettling is the way to put it. So I remember, I think it was my sophomore year, I went to my dad, we were in Breckenridge, Colorado and felt like I just needed to tell him what I was going through.

(00:14:29):

And as best I can remember, I said, “Dad, I want to know what’s true, but I’m not sure that I’m convinced Christianity’s true.” And he didn’t even flinch. He goes, “Son, I think that’s great.”

(00:14:41):

And he let it hit and I was like, “Did you even hear what I said? Are you listening to me, dad?” He goes, “You can’t live on my faith.” He goes, “You’ve got to seek after what’s true and follow it. If you really seek after truth, I believe you’ll follow Jesus because it’s true and your mom and I love you no matter what. ” And it was like, I knew that in my head, but I needed to experience that. But looking back, his calmness at that objection was exactly what I needed. Yeah, because if you get

Trent Horn (00:15:07):

Freaked out, you shut down.

Sean McDowell (00:15:09):

Yeah. It’s like when you’re on a plane and there’s turbulence, I look at the flight attendant and if she’s freaking out, I’m like, oh man, but they’re trained to be calm and that’s exactly what my dad did. So anyways, I was like, I got to figure this out. And it was people like JP Moreland and William and Craig who were at Biola and Talbot at this time. And I’d just go to JP’s office hours, I would talk with them, I’d ask them questions. And he said a lot of the same stuff my dad would say, but you just kind of need to hear it from somebody else sometimes, like a mentor. And frankly, my dad’s done popular stuff. I needed to go a little bit deeper with it. And that really helped solidify my faith, but I still had no interest in being an apologist.

(00:15:49):

I was going to coach basketball and maybe work with a ministry. And it really just came out of figuring out, you know what, you know what it was? It was my senior year, I took a class on apologetics with JP and I absolutely loved it because before that I knew historical apologetics. I was really the first time, so this is 1998, that I learned philosophy of mind, thoughtful responses to the problem of evil, intelligent design movement had started just a few years before that.

Trent Horn (00:16:18):

Yeah, because you had Behe’s Black Box probably like late ’90s, I think.

Sean McDowell (00:16:22):

That was like, I think first copy was maybe 96 of that one and then other books. So mid, late ’90s. I’m learning this for the first time and I was just hooked. I was like, “This is so interesting.” So I decided to do the MA philosophy program with JP and with Doug Givet and Scott Ray and all these guys. And my wife, I mean, she’ll tell me this day, there’s two things. She’s like, “That time your confidence just boosted and it flourished. I really came into my own, but I still was just going to teach high school Bible and coach basketball. I didn’t have any ambitions of writing books and speaking and doing all this stuff.” But as my heart changed, I was like, “Wait a minute, there’s not a book for students on this. Wait a minute. There’s nobody talking on this. ” It was just like I saw a need and I’m like, “I need to fill this and over time.”

Trent Horn (00:17:05):

I feel like that is the common element in just so many testimonies of people that I would consider the best apologists, both in substance and style. I mean, there’s some people I think about when St. Paul talks about, and maybe it’s the super apostles, he talks about these other people who are preaching and they’re kind of preaching at a vanity and he’s saying like, “Hey, at least Christ is being preached.That’s great, but I still don’t like what these people are doing.” And I feel like there’s some people out there in the world today who will preach Christ almost for vain or bad reasons, get attention. But there’s some people you’re like, “Yeah, they have got the substance and the Christian spirit.” And I think a common element is that it found them, they didn’t seek it.

Sean McDowell (00:17:47):

Interesting.

Trent Horn (00:17:48):

It’s like they didn’t seek the limelight. They’re like, “I want this. This is true. I want this to reach a lot of people. Even if a lot more people know who I am, okay, whatever, but I want to get it out there.” And that’s a dangerous thing, especially in the world of social media, people love the limelight.

Sean McDowell (00:18:04):

Oh Man.

Trent Horn (00:18:04):

It’s just, I mean, I don’t know if you’ve been worried about this. People are like, now it’s like, “Oh, I would love to be a full-time Christian influencer apologist and have all these followers.” And it’s like, are you doing it for the right reasons?

Sean McDowell (00:18:15):

The other piece for me, hopefully it’s an advantage is I saw behind the scenes the weight of what it cost my dad to have a ministry like this and people see him on stage, he could own a stage, people would ask for his autograph. People thought, “Wow, this is so cool.” I’m like, “That’s 2% of what he does.” I remember morning he’s getting up going, it’s four in the morning and he’s working on a book.

(00:18:40):

He’s having to deal with this crisis and their ministry behind the scenes. There’s a certain weight that comes with that. So I’d like to think I went into my eyes wide open thinking, if you get some platform and you write books, that’s going to make you happy. It’s not. Do it because you believe in it and it’s a calling that you have. And so I was just teaching high school. I was content to do that and just got a little bit … After a little while I was like, “You know what? I need more time to study. I’m a little tired of dealing with parents to be completely frank.” And I thought I want to do a PhD and teach somewhere like Biola. I actually didn’t think they would ever hire me. In my mind, I was like, “I’m just a high school teacher.” But it worked out and really just opportunities came the way you described it.

(00:19:25):

My first book was called Ethics, and it’s out of print now. It’s E-T-H-I-X. And the X was tied to Gen X. That’s how dated it was. It sounds

Trent Horn (00:19:32):

Like a radical book,

Sean McDowell (00:19:33):

Sean.

Trent Horn (00:19:34):

For his

Sean McDowell (00:19:35):

Day. I was teaching high school. And I was like, wait, I don’t have a book for my students to deal with pro- life, euthanasia, war, sexuality that’s biblical and it’s thoughtful. It’s interesting to students. There was no book. I would write it.

Trent Horn (00:19:52):

Necessity is the mother of invention.

Sean McDowell (00:19:54):

So true. And that’s where it started. And then once you write one, it’s like, oh, I could write another one. So it really just kind of took off. But now, I mean, there’s nothing I would rather do, Trent. I love it. I get the impression that you love what you do too. I love it

Trent Horn (00:20:09):

Even though there’s a weight, even though there’s a burden to carry.

Sean McDowell (00:20:11):

There is.

Trent Horn (00:20:12):

As long as God gives me the grace to carry it, I love doing it. I love being able to reach out to people, to see people come to know who Jesus is, come to know his church, to find peace and comfort and the forgiveness of sins, to be fully united to Christ. And I see it and it’s always like a danger. I’m sure you’ve felt this too. People say, “Your book, Save My Faith, brought me to Jesus.” And I’m always saying in response, “Praise me to God for how he used that book to help you. ” As soon as you start buying your own hype, easy road to tread down of scandal or of just pride goth before the fall. But it does bring me joy. And I love seeing so many people, especially for me, I love when I can meet other apologists, whether they’re Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, whatever it may be, who share a commitment to substance and a Christian spirit.

(00:21:06):

We’re intellectually rigorous, but we’re also modeling the fruits of the Holy Spirit. That’s why I remember when you asked me to do a chapter for Apologetics for New Generation. That was a great compliment. Definitely that one’s still in print, please, right?

Sean McDowell (00:21:19):

Apologetics for a new generation. That’s got to be out there. So we updated it and do, it’s called Apologetics for an ever-changing culture, but in spirit, yes.

Trent Horn (00:21:29):

Okay. So yeah, apologetics for never-changing culture. Yeah, because I think I contributed to that as well. And it’s so funny, actually, one of the things that formed me a lot in my apologetics, and there’s kind of a … Protestant in the sense of just not being Catholic, not that there’s defending Protestant distinctives. There’s kind of that mecca of that in Southern California, because you have Biola, but you’ve also got Greg Kochlan Stand of Reason.

Sean McDowell (00:21:53):

That’s right.

Trent Horn (00:21:54):

And so a lot of my formation in pro- life was Greg Kochl, Scott Klusendorf. Oh, dude. Scott and I had a funny thing. So in 2017, I debated James White on eternal security, whether you could lose your salvation. And that was at the G3 Conference in Atlanta, and Scott was there doing a workshop on abortion. And it was so funny. I had a plane that had to go back early the next day, but he’s like, “Oh, Trent, if you were staying, I’d love to have you co-teach the seminar with me. ” James walks in, here’s the Catholic of G3, giving a talk on pro- life. But that’s what … It was so funny. It was Catholic philosophers that were forming philosophically on the pro- life issue, people like Frank Beckwith, who was funny, he left Catholicism, wrote Politically Correct Death, came back to Catholicism, wrote Defending Life, him, Patrick Lee, Chris Kazor, but at the street level, how do you talk to the common man?

(00:22:54):

It was Kochl, Klusendorf, Steve Wagner. So it’s just so funny seeing those people especially, I really looked to a lot of people who were Protestant, but they were doing fundamental Christian apologetics and they wanted to communicate it to the common man. And I think that’s kind of the thread. That’s what your dad was doing. And

Sean McDowell (00:23:12):

I feel like that’s

Trent Horn (00:23:13):

What you want to do.

Sean McDowell (00:23:14):

That’s exactly what I want to do. I done some academic work, but I get motivated more by a talk or a popular level book or a podcast of translating the content to people. I thank God for people who work for months on a journal article and do a presentation that you can I pull out, get an argument from, we can footnote. I’m just not wired to love and care about that stuff. I enjoyed this. I’ve got a couple other academic books that I’m working on because I’m an academic and that’s what I have to do. And I enjoy it on one level, but I’m an evangelist, I’m an apologist, I like to build bridges. That’s just the way I think God has wired me.

Trent Horn (00:23:55):

Well, let’s talk then about how in your own studies, because I think a lot of people who focus on defending the Christian faith, a lot of times they will end up in an area of specialty, right? Like William Lane Craig is like Kalam cosmological argument. That’s William Lane Craig. For other people, Stephen Meyer, it’s Signature in the Cell, Intelligent Design. And I think now you have kind of placed yourself into that academic wedge on the historical evidence of the resurrection, but in particular, the evidence of the martyrdom of the apostles. Because I think that’s something where we often make a popular argument and the argument. And in fact, Mel Gibson, I remember Mel Gibson made this argument on the Joe Rogan podcast. I responded

Sean McDowell (00:24:36):

To it. He’s

Trent Horn (00:24:36):

Like, “Oh, I’d love to see that. ” Just

Sean McDowell (00:24:38):

Briefly.

Trent Horn (00:24:39):

I can imagine that you got to put my beard on in wildlife. I mean, really, Joe, who would die for a lie for this? And you look at all the evidence of all. And I love how Mel just captures people with his intensity. He does. And the argument will blow past that it’s like, oh, we got issues here because he just has that wonderful intensity about him.

Mel Gibson (00:24:56):

All the evangelists, the apostles who went out there, every single one of those guys died rather than deny their belief and nobody dies for a lie, nobody. Who gets back up three days later after he gets murdered in public, who gets back up under his own power? Buddha didn’t do that.

Trent Horn (00:25:15):

But that’s a very common thing you’ll say, who would die for a lie? But I think I’m curious as to what moved you into wanting to do this really in depth study. Because I would say for our listeners, if you want to hold the book up so people can

Sean McDowell (00:25:27):

See. Sure.

Trent Horn (00:25:27):

This is the most, let’s see. Oh, over

Sean McDowell (00:25:30):

Here. Where are we? Right over

Trent Horn (00:25:31):

Here, right in front of you. Of course that’s in the light. So this is, yes, let’s get that up. So that would be … I don’t think you can read the title, but that’s fine. It’s academic title. But you can see it there. Fate of the apostles. I would say this is the most in- depth treatment on what does history tell us about what happened to the 12 apostles because their martyrdom has factored into many arguments for the truth of the Christian faith. What got you into wanting to write just a full academic treatment of this?

Sean McDowell (00:26:00):

So I was on a trip to Berkeley and I think it was 2011 is when I was teaching high school full-time. And we used to take high school students up to Salt Lake City. We’d met with BYU prophets a few times. We’d knock on doors. We’d go to Berkeley. We’d engage Unitarian, universalists, atheists, LGBTQ activists, and I’d just teach my students how to defend the faith graciously. It was awesome. Yeah. And we invited this atheist in a friend of mine, he’s a mythicist, so he’s arguing that Jesus didn’t even exist. And one of my students says, “Well, if he didn’t exist, why would all the apostles die for their belief that Jesus rose from the grave?” And he looks at him and he goes, “What are you talking about? There’s no evidence for that. Give me evidence. Any of them died as martyrs.” And a few of my students kind of looked at me and I sat there.

(00:26:51):

I was like, “I don’t know that I have a really good answer for that. “

Trent Horn (00:26:54):

It’s something you always … There’s those things like you always hear it. And so you just accept it because you’ve always heard people say that

Sean McDowell (00:27:01):

And

Trent Horn (00:27:01):

Then you’re like, “Oh yeah, why do we believe that? “

Sean McDowell (00:27:04):

All right, Trent, you want an embarrassing confession. 100%.

Trent Horn (00:27:08):

Yeah.

Sean McDowell (00:27:08):

My dad wrote Warner Carpenter 77, I think he updated in the 80s. I helped him in 2009. So this is two years before the experience that we had at Berkeley. And in that, my dad probably did as much as anybody to popularize the argument

Trent Horn (00:27:24):

Who would

Sean McDowell (00:27:25):

Die for a lie. And in there is a list of how the apostles died according to church tradition. And the footnote in there, and this is before I started my PhD, I think the footnote says something in effect of see church history.

Trent Horn (00:27:41):

Oh no.

Sean McDowell (00:27:42):

The most vague, least helpful. I don’t even know why we footnoted that.

Trent Horn (00:27:47):

See Bible.

Sean McDowell (00:27:48):

Like see Bible, see history. But in my mind, it planted an idea like, okay, wait a minute. I’m helping update this. Do I really know this? But I kind of moved on a little bit. It was that moment in 2011 because I had started my PhD program in 2010 and I needed a topic to write on. And I was thinking about theistic evolution, but you got to know philosophy, science.

Trent Horn (00:28:09):

Oh, it’s super

Sean McDowell (00:28:10):

Multidisciplinary. It’s changing so fast. I started to feel like I wasn’t equipped for that.

(00:28:15):

And the moment they said that, that night when it was done, I was like, wait a minute, this is a great topic. And it turns out Jay Warner Wallace, another apologist, former atheist, cold case detective, his daughter was in my class. So he was on that trip and I was like, “Jim, do you think this is a good topic?” He goes, “Not only is a good topic, but I have collected two boxes of books. He was about to go through them like a detective and assess it himself.” He goes, “You can just have them.” So he gives me two full boxes of book. Now looking back, that was literally a drop in the bucket, but it was enough to get the ball rolling and motivating me. I was like, because when I wanted a topic, I wanted something that would genuinely help people. I needed something that I could actually make a contribution on and I needed something that interested me and all three of those fascinated me.

(00:29:04):

So sometimes early in the morning, late at night, I’m like, “I got to figure out what happened here and know. ” So that was the birth of the idea.

Trent Horn (00:29:12):

Okay. And so then you go through and start doing this rigorous historical investigation into the death of the apostles. Well, before we get to that though, let’s break down the argument because I think there’s a simple version that is not very effective and a qualified one that’s a lot more effective. So what would be your first opinion when someone just leads with, “Well, we know Jesus rose from the dead because who would die for a lie?” What would you say is not so great about that formulation?

Sean McDowell (00:29:41):

Well, I’d try to be gracious how I would respond to them, but sometimes-

Trent Horn (00:29:44):

Because their

Sean McDowell (00:29:45):

Heart’s

Trent Horn (00:29:45):

In the right place.

Sean McDowell (00:29:46):

Exactly. And I would say well intentioned, but you kind of went from A to Z and you skipped about three or four steps that need to be established in between … Getting to that conclusion. Yeah. And I’m not sure we should state that conclusion as definitively as it’s often stated. So yeah, we probably have some examples of maybe individuals that would die for life or some other motivation. But the more qualified way is to say that the apostles believed they had seen the risen Jesus and they put themselves in harm’s way because of that belief. And we know that at least some of them died as martyrs. There’s no evidence any of them recanted. This doesn’t show that Christianity is true. Right. It shows that they’re sincere and they believed it.

Trent Horn (00:30:40):

It’s one element

Sean McDowell (00:30:41):

Of the case. It’s one element. You might say they’re kind of signing their testimony in their blood, so to speak. So they believe it. So it helps rule out, say, for example, the conspiracy theory or that they’re lying. Does that rule out hallucinations within itself? No. I actually say in the book, I’m like, that’s a separate conversation we have to have. And I think we can rule it out for other reasons. But this just shows the depth of their sincerity and it’s a part of a larger argument for Christianity and a larger argument for the resurrection.

Trent Horn (00:31:12):

And it also helps rule out a legend hypothesis.This is a story told decades or centuries later tacked on a divorce from the first followers of Jesus. And we can say, no, we have good evidence that we know who the first followers were and we know what happened to them. This is not just some kind of later legend. All right. So you go through and you investigate historically to the fate of the apostles. It’s kind of interesting when you look at the apostles, they’re treated unequally in scripture because there’s many that get really short shrift. That’s

Sean McDowell (00:31:48):

Right.

Trent Horn (00:31:49):

You’re like, “What exactly did this person? What was Thaddeus up to? ” Not a ton. Only when we get to Phillip’s hometown, do we hear a lot from him? There’s certain ones. I mean, obviously Peter’s going to be mentioned a whole heck of a lot in a lot of places. I think more than all the other apostles put together. So it’s interesting. There are some that are mentioned way more than others. Does that seem to correspond? Because you assess, you’ve come to the conclusion there’s unequal evidence for each of their fates. Some we have really, really strong historical evidence for martyrdom in certain times and places. Others is not as strong. Is that the conclusion you basically …

Sean McDowell (00:32:30):

Yeah. I mean, I went into this at the beginning thinking probably they all died as martyrs except for John. That was my assumption because that’s what I’ve heard in every church service that I’ve seen in every apologetics book.

(00:32:42):

Now, I’ve actually shifted in my 10-year update on a couple of them that we could come back to that I find really interesting, which is the part when you publish an academic book, I’ve had scholars reach out to me. I’ve had people send me articles, people publish responses. And it’s a part of learning and growing and helped me, I think, fine-tune the argument, so to speak. So the first thing I had to figure out, I was like, who am I going to assess, number one? So I was definitely going to do the 12 disciples, the 12 apostles. But then it made sense to add James, the brother of Jesus, made sense to add Paul. But then I was like, “Do I add Steven? Do I add Luke? Do I add Mark? Do I add stories of Timothy?” And finally I was like, “You know what?

(00:33:21):

I’m going to do the 12 and I’m going to do Paul and I’m going to do James and I’m going to limit it there. You have to pick a scope.” And then I spent time, I actually had to spend a lot of time studying history itself. How exactly, because I had assumptions as an apologist, but to be really honest, I learned, I’m like, “Oh, I’m trying to make this argument. I’ve got to pull that back and I’ve got to assess it fairly.” I had to check myself and learn good historiography. I

Trent Horn (00:33:47):

Was about to say when you get geeky enough into history, then you do historiography. Exactly. And then go, I think of Lucona’s book on The Resurrection and you historiographical 500 page brick approach to Jesus. I love

Sean McDowell (00:34:02):

It. And he did his best to say, “Here’s my historical method, here’s my biases, here’s my conclusions.” I think I actually modeled my book after his assessment of the resurrection and he was one of my readers, my doctoral readers on it to really push back. And so I modeled, I came up with my own kind of unique historiography and then I just started taking them one by one. Now to answer your question, what I didn’t know going in is that there would be way more for Peter than there would be say for Matthew or Mathias, and I didn’t know it would map on the way that you described it. So Bachham says probably like there’s different tiers, three tiers of the apostles. There’s the upper tier where you have Peter and you have John and you have James. And sometimes Andrew is maybe pushed into that a little bit.

(00:34:51):

And then in the middle, it’s kind of like Thomas, Philip, Matthew, maybe Bartholomew. And then you get to the end where you’re dealing with Thaddeus and James Son of Alpheus and Simon, there’s almost nothing on them. So it’s kind of like four, four, four,

(00:35:09):

And the amount of evidence we have kind of matches on to where they are in those tiers.

Trent Horn (00:35:14):

And

Sean McDowell (00:35:15):

So your description is exactly right as far as I could tell.

Trent Horn (00:35:18):

Okay, good. That was my hunch because I was thinking through

(00:35:20):

That you have the list in there of, oh, well, these are the ones that are very likely, less likely and least likely. And I’m like, oh, this really corresponds to … And I guess it would make sense that we have the early Christian community, there’s going to be people that they give us a lot of information in the New Testament about certain people and it would seem to follow, oh, and we also tend to have a lot of extra biblical early historical documents about those same people because they were so prominent, especially someone like … And I think the top three, I’m curious what you’re … I know you shifted people around a little bit. It seems like the top three we’d have up there would be like Peter, Paul and James, the brother of Jesus.

Sean McDowell (00:35:57):

Yeah. And of course, Paul is not one of the 12.

Trent Horn (00:36:00):

So if you

Sean McDowell (00:36:01):

Mean

Trent Horn (00:36:01):

As a whole. So we put all of them. I like to add Paul and last among all is one untimely born. As he says in one Corinthians 15, I feel like he’s got to be in there as the 13th because also it’s important because we appeal to these individuals for our bedrock historical evidence. Paul’s testimony, receiving the creeds, Peter’s involvement with Jesus, Paul meeting Peter and the others in Galatians one referencing that. So it’s important for us to know, okay, were these people really sincere? So it does seem like those are the three in the top, Peter, James Brother, Jesus, and Paul, I guess.

Sean McDowell (00:36:37):

Yeah. So I agree. If we’re going to look just at the 12, we have Peter, James and John who are in the three that go to with him in the Garner Gethsemane to see Jairus’s daughter raised, to the transfiguration. And I think we have really good evidence for those three and there’s some extra biblical tales, more so for John than for James for reasons. But then when you add James the Brother of Jesus and Paul, I put him in about as high-

Trent Horn (00:37:02):

So that first James though, we’re talking about the James who

Sean McDowell (00:37:05):

Was killed- Son of Zebedee.

Trent Horn (00:37:06):

Yeah. Who was killed by … Wait.

Sean McDowell (00:37:09):

Heritage of one act 12.

Trent Horn (00:37:11):

Acts 12.

Sean McDowell (00:37:12):

Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.

Trent Horn (00:37:13):

Whenever you’re doing this, it’s so funny or people

Sean McDowell (00:37:15):

Start to debate

Trent Horn (00:37:15):

This stuff. It’s so easy to confuse the James.

Sean McDowell (00:37:18):

And by the way, this is actually one of the things that made my investigation difficult is the early church fathers did as well. Oh. They would confuse Mathias and they would confuse Matthew.

Trent Horn (00:37:28):

Oh.

Sean McDowell (00:37:29):

They would confuse the James. They would confuse Philip, the apostle with Philip Evangelist- The evangelist. So sometimes unraveling this was like, okay, wait a minute. Are there two Philips that have a connection to Hieropolis? Did they confuse him? That’s one of the biggest challenges is the early church fathers did this as well. So we’re just … I’ve done it myself. We’re in good hands confusing him. But yes, you have James, the Son is Ebedy, brother of John and Peter in the top tier of the 12. And then when you shift outside, James, the brother of Jesus and Paul, I think we have a lot of good biblical, extra biblical evidence on those characters and I would put him in the top tier.

Trent Horn (00:38:10):

Okay. And so just to run through for our audience so they can know, okay, so we have, I think part of the evidence … Well, I guess for a lot of them, because the martyrdoms of Peter and Paul are not recorded in the New Testament, also for James, the brother of Jesus. We do have James in Acts 12,

Sean McDowell (00:38:26):

But

Trent Horn (00:38:27):

For their martyrdoms, we’re going to have to appeal to extra biblical evidence. Just as a refresher for our audience, where do we go appeal for that?

Sean McDowell (00:38:34):

Okay. So the two biblical ones we have, of course, are in John 21. The

Trent Horn (00:38:38):

Foreshadowing, the

Sean McDowell (00:38:39):

Prophecy. The foreshadowing. But of course, this is tied to the death of Peter and he’s writing this in the ’90s. He had been dead for three decades. So yes, he foreshadows it, but there would’ve been knowledge of what happened to Peter. So we have that account. And then Acts 12: two, the death of James, the son of Zebedee. There’s some other passages people say are possibilities like in, I think it’s in James five, there’s a reference to kind of the one that was killed and some say, “Yeah, that’s James.” I’m like, “Yeah, I’m not convinced by that. ” Some would find certain hints in the Book of Acts, but those are the only two that I think are really solidly mentioned. So then we have to go to the early church fathers or in the case of James or Brother of Jesus, we have Josephus who weighs in on this in the ’90s.

(00:39:24):

Sometimes with James as well, we have these gnostic sources, which makes it really interesting, but we’re just shifting to history itself. And what makes this challenge hard is the question that you and I are asking right now was not the primary question these people are asking. They’re not asking, “What’s the fate of Peter? Let’s investigate it. ” They’re writing letters like Clement from Rome, by the way, and he’s talking about Peter as an example, but he’s not- It’s

Trent Horn (00:39:51):

Background knowledge everybody

Sean McDowell (00:39:52):

Shares. Exactly. That’s what makes the task a little bit more challenging. And then you have these apocryphal accounts that show up in kind of the mid-second century that clearly have a fictional, exaggerated element about them, but they seem to be built on a historical core. So what can we ascertain? What is invented? How reliable are these accounts? That’s where kind of these challenges made my task probably harder than I thought going into it.

Trent Horn (00:40:22):

Yeah. And so yeah, you have to tease that out. And then it’s interesting then responding to the critics and other people who will try to deny this. I remember very early on in my apologetics work, I remember when I picked up Candida Moss’s book

(00:40:40):

On early martyrdom. And I was really jazzed. I’m like, oh, someone’s going to bring really sharp objections, the martyrdom of the apostles. And I crack it open. And it was just such a deflated thing when it gets to the actual question of Peter and Paul. I felt like she just … I mean, she points towards maybe certain things in later accounts of Christian saints and martyrs from the second, third or fourth century, maybe. But even then, I think some of that is just a little bit persnickety. But I felt like she just kind of glossed right over Peter and Paul like, “Oh, we just can’t really … ” Just not even looking at the evidence.

Sean McDowell (00:41:18):

I think that book came out in 2013, The Myth of Persecution.

Trent Horn (00:41:22):

That’s right.

Sean McDowell (00:41:23):

And so in fairness to comments we made before, it’s a popular level book. She’s written some other books like Ancient Christian Martyrdom that I found really helpful in some of my research itself, but I didn’t find further scholarly backing of the arguments that are there. So if she sees this and has them, send them my way. I’d love to see them and entertain it if that comes. But the point being, I didn’t find many of the arguments very compelling. She says, she makes a statement in there that the death of the apostles are all in kind of these apocryphal non-historical accounts. And my response is twofold. We can get some historical evidence out of these apocryphal counts. I don’t think they’re entirely myth and entirely legendary, but there are some other sources like Clement of Rome and Josephus that help us ascertain at least some of the apostles.

(00:42:16):

So she’s probably the most well-known critic of this argument, but that book’s written on more popular level. By the way, I thought Dale Allison actually in his resection book raised tougher objections.

Trent Horn (00:42:26):

And what’s interesting is, so Robert Price, who is one of the OG mythesis-

Sean McDowell (00:42:30):

He probably was with internet infidels is my guess going way back.

Trent Horn (00:42:35):

Yes. He wrote an article against Craig. By this time he stinketh. What is wrong with William Lane Craig? I forgot about that. Price, I appreciate that he’s a colorful character. It’s gotten into trouble a little bit now that people’s proclivities about what’s politically correct and incorrect, that would be a separate issue to discuss. But I’ve always appreciated that he’s a colorful character in what he talks about. But he did a critique of Moss saying that he found her arguments to be very specious, her distinction between persecution and prosecution.

(00:43:13):

I mean, I think also one of our arguments trying to say, “Oh, well, these aren’t historical accounts because they’re clearly written to imitate.” The later martyrdom accounts of saints are meant to imitate like Ignatius Vantiak, Polycarp, or even earlier martyrs. And when I read a lot of these, I say, “Well, they’re not imitation.” It seems like the later writer is just trying to find any parallel he can, no matter how flimsy, which to me speaks of actual authentic history. When you see someone die for the faith, it’s like, “Oh, it’s a lot like this. ” And you try to find anything that feels similar without … And it feels so flimsy. It’s like, oh, if you’re creating out of whole cloth, you’d make just a whole better fake story for your fake martyr, things like that. So that was one of my critiques there. But oh, when it comes to newer evidence, so a lot more has come out like with James the Brother of Jesus, a lot of that comes from Josephus.

(00:44:04):

Has anything from TC Schmidt’s new book on Josephus? Adam, have you dived into that or has that moved you in certain directions?

Sean McDowell (00:44:11):

Well, I did interview him.

Trent Horn (00:44:13):

Okay.

Sean McDowell (00:44:14):

I was able to do one of the early interviews. A professor at Talbot came across it and turned me onto it. And I think he makes a great argument. I mean, I will let some of the scholarly arguments and rebuttals play themselves out, but I thought some of the points he made were quite compelling. Now, I didn’t include it because this was, gosh, I think it published the end of 2024, so finished it 2023, and I think his book came out in 24, 25. So I was not aware of that. That would only strengthen my case in many ways.

Trent Horn (00:44:43):

Because Schmidt’s argument about Josephus is that it could be not a partial interpolation, but that the entire thing is authentic.

Sean McDowell (00:44:51):

Totally.

Trent Horn (00:44:51):

And so if this is where we’re getting information about the death of James, the brother of Jesus, and especially if Josephus’ sources go all the way back to the Sanhedrin, it’s like, wow, and you’ve got even stronger evidence now for historicity.

Sean McDowell (00:45:06):

And of course he’s talking about the testimonium, Flavian. Flaviana. Flavianam. Yeah. But you have the other reference in antiquities to the death of James, the brother of Jesus, who’s described as the brother, which is interesting. So if you can establish that one is reliable, because from what I could tell in my research, scholars were more inclined to accept the passage that deals with James.

Trent Horn (00:45:29):

Yeah, the one in book 20.

Sean McDowell (00:45:30):

But yes, question the one in 18, the testimonium flavianum. So if this is strong, now we have two cases. So I wish I had had that. If I do a third update, which I’m not sure that I will, I spent 10 years doing the second edition of this one, and so a lot of tweaks and research went into it. I feel a lot better about where I landed, but Schmidt’s argument I think was really, really helpful and great.

Trent Horn (00:45:57):

Oh no, incredibly helpful. I think another element maybe we could talk about with the fate of

Sean McDowell (00:46:01):

The

Trent Horn (00:46:01):

Apostles, and I think this has come up a lot maybe when we’re … Because I know that you’ve engaged critics and dialogues, I’ve engaged critics of dialogues on this particular question. I think one thing we can do also to make a really tight bulletproof argument, if we’re just going to say, “Hey, we need to show the apostles were sincere.” We don’t actually even have to appeal to the martyrdom itself.

Sean McDowell (00:46:21):

That’s right.

Trent Horn (00:46:22):

We can just appeal to the fact that these are people who were willing to endure the threat of martyrdom and persecution, and that kind of evidence is quite early in the sources for us to use. So has that come up for you a lot?

Sean McDowell (00:46:36):

Yeah, I think that’s actually a wise way to do it. I don’t think you would care. I was having a meal with William Lane Craig and he’s just such a careful thinker. He’s like, I’m just- He’s like,

Trent Horn (00:46:46):

“Well…” He does the Craig thinking face.

Sean McDowell (00:46:51):

Processing everything. And I mentioned this because he doesn’t talk about the death of the apostles, but has been very careful to talk about their willingness to do so.

Trent Horn (00:47:00):

Yes.

Sean McDowell (00:47:00):

And this is when I was working on some of my research. And if you’re going to err on one side, that’s where you err because we’re just trying to make the point. They didn’t make this up. They’re not inventing a story to get themselves put in harm’s way in the way we see in the beginning of acts and Jesus predicted and prophesied. That’s really all we need. My point was like, you’re right, but I think we at least have some good evidence that on top of that, some of them died as martyrs, no evidence any of them recanted. So it just adds a little bit to that, but I prefer to understate it rather than overstate it the way we have in the past, just because I think it’s more integrist.

Trent Horn (00:47:42):

Well, and I think that’s also another good trait I see. When I see people that I would consider, these are the best apologists out there. I see this in my friend and colleague, Jimmy Aiken. I see it also in West Huff when he has been talking about biblical manuscripts.

Sean McDowell (00:47:57):

Totally. I agree.

Trent Horn (00:47:58):

And that would be you keep your evidence minimal and as strong as possible and you just don’t avoid luxurious, extravagant, flimsy evidence. There’s people, and I know more, they might be in more of the traditional Catholic world who will just straight out say, “Oh, the evidence to the martyrdom is that we have these accounts in church history and any account in church history is certainly historically reliable.” And so they throw it out there and you just take it. And that’s great in your own circle or your own echo chamber. Now, I think as a Catholic, we’re going to have a little different that the church has solemnly pronounced through its tradition about the canonizations of the apostles about them being martyrs. But of course, for me, if I’m debating an atheist and they say, “How do you know the apostles died?” I could say, “Well, Christ church has canonized them and said that I can’t.

(00:48:48):

To defend one miracle is not as helpful to appeal to something else that relies on a miracle for its authority.” When we’re trying to engage people, it’d be like saying, “Well, of course Jesus was from the dead. The Bible’s the word of God and it says so.

Sean McDowell (00:48:58):

“

Trent Horn (00:48:59):

It’s like, for a Christian, oh, if I believe this word of God, yeah, that’s very, very strong. But for someone who’s a skeptic, oh, I got to use what you and I, the common ground that we have and just try to build a case from that. Even if it’s not the full case I want or believe, at least gets us kind of down the road.

Sean McDowell (00:49:18):

So let me ask you this, just out of curiosity, as a Catholic, are you committed to John dying naturally and the others dying as martyrs? Would you be heretical if you said any of the others died naturally? What does that mean?

Trent Horn (00:49:33):

Well, I think I would say that this is where, yeah, I’m going to have to make sure I’m clear on everything about what … When the church canonizes someone, when it declares that the person is a saint, that they’re in heaven. Well, there’s different ways of being canonized. Many of the early saints in the church were not canonized by a Pope. Their canonization was a local acclimation by the Christian community that came to be accepted as a part of sacred tradition. Then later in church history, you have papal canonizations that here’s this person, there’s miracles associated with them. And so we can determine that they’re in heaven. And most theologians, not all, but most of theologians would say that the pope is infallible only on a small number of

Sean McDowell (00:50:16):

Things.

Trent Horn (00:50:17):

And one of those things, most theologians, not all, but most would say that canonizations declaring someone is in heaven is an act of infallibility. So it may be the case that declaring someone is in heaven. It doesn’t necessarily follow that everything you declare about them in this life, maybe some of the historical facts are incorrect. So the fact that the apostles are in heaven, I mean, that is a non-negotiable one right there, but the exact circumstances of how they died-

Sean McDowell (00:50:43):

Less so.

Trent Horn (00:50:44):

Yeah, that wouldn’t be the same. Though I think, I don’t know, the facts of the martyrdom for many of them may fall into the church’s universal and ordinary magisterium, something that has always been taught and affirmed. But just because something is repeated doesn’t mean it’s necessarily taught authoritatively as something to hold as part of that universal teaching. Maybe I have to write my own book to see what Catholic … I’m going to have to do that now. What can Catholics believe on that? I

Sean McDowell (00:51:10):

Have no idea. I was curious how that would land because I heard you say in one of your earlier dialogues that kind of you embraced the Catholic view about they all died as martyrs and then … But what we believe by faith, and I don’t mean faith is blind, might be different than what we can establish historically. Yeah. I

Trent Horn (00:51:29):

Don’t believe every story about that that is attributed to the saints. For example, there’s a claim that the blessed-

Sean McDowell (00:51:35):

Well, it’s not

Trent Horn (00:51:36):

Possible

Sean McDowell (00:51:36):

Because there’s like six deaths for Bartholomew more

Trent Horn (00:51:41):

Than that. Oh, so yeah, when you’re doing this, it’s like, oh, eventually even as a Catholic, it’s like you’re going to have to pick. So I think if I went through the Catholic encyclopedia, that might be good to go through after this. It might even have to admit that for some, it’s more probabilistic of understanding what happened, but because of their holiness, the fact that nothing is recanted … I love that when we look at that evidence of the founders of Christianity versus let’s say the founders of Mormonism and those who leave, they didn’t recant their tests in the book of Mormon. Well, they did leave or they were excommunicated. Some came back, not all of them did. I think all of that and the local Christian reception, universal reception, would point towards their sanctity and the fact that they’re in heaven now still interceding for the church would make that very strong.

(00:52:33):

But the manners of the death, yeah, some of the historical facts. Like I said with James is a claim, oh, that the blessed Virgin Mary appeared to St. James on his way to Spain, but the first story about that is from the 11th century. And I’m like, guys, come on. That’s pretty late. We can’t be doing this guys. We can’t be given a thousand year gap for us and then say the miracles of Muhammad are a bunch of legends. We can’t be doing that. But there is something though, when you cover the death of the apostles, that can help me a little bit as a Catholic apologist. You can’t help me a little bit. In fact, I cite you in my book, Case for Catholicism on this point. So there’s obviously the debate between Catholics and Protestants about what was the role of Peter in the early church.

(00:53:12):

He was most of us to say chief apostle, very important early leader in the church. Was he the first Pope? Was he a successor of Peter in Rome? Question of first Pope, of course, that’s going to be huge to divide Catholics and Protestants, but there’s some Protestants who are critical of the Catholic view of Peter in the early church. And they’ll say, well, no, Peter was not the first bishop of Rome because Peter was never in Rome. He never died in Rome. He wrote his letter from Babylon in Iraq. He was never in Rome at all. And your investigation seems to see very strong evidence. No, he was martyred in Rome and the sources seem to point to that very clearly. Is that the view that you hold?

Sean McDowell (00:53:51):

So I would say Paul is certainly in Rome. You got Acts 28, you got two Timothy, you’ve got Ms. Yes,

Trent Horn (00:53:58):

Because in Acts after Acts 12, we

Sean McDowell (00:54:00):

Don’t hear from

Trent Horn (00:54:00):

Peter again.

Sean McDowell (00:54:01):

Except the council, of course, but we don’t know the Jerusalem Council.

Trent Horn (00:54:05):

In Acts 15. I’m sorry. After Acts, sorry, I was conflating with James again. After Acts 15, Act shifts some more of that. And I think that’s because Luke’s talking about his own journeys with Paul. That’s where he starts using that plural we language in the sea voyages.

Sean McDowell (00:54:22):

So Peter and Paul, I think are two of the top apostles that we have the strongest evidence that they were martyred. That’s the primary question I’m investigating. Secondary question, how they were martyred, when they were martyred, where they were martyred.

(00:54:39):

And so some of the sources, like I would say for Peter, there’s more sources in this, but eight good sources within what I would consider the living memory. This comes from Marcus Bachmuell, a wonderful scholar who’s written one of the best books on Peter. Says if you go through kind of the end of the second century, you have tradition that could be passed down. I could tell you about my grandfather, maybe my great-grandfather. Beyond that, I couldn’t pass down any living memory. And so with Peter, we have at least eight sources that as a whole testify that he died as a martyr and there’s none that are contrary to that. Some are more clear maybe than others. Getting to Rome is a little less solid than that. So I put his martyrdom at the highest possible probability. I mean, in terms of something we could know from 2000 years ago,

(00:55:32):

I think we are on such solid ground that Peter died as a martyr. I have almost no doubt about that. Unlike Paul, where I think it’s crystal clear he’s in Rome, I think it’s a little bit weaker for Peter, but I still think he probably made it to Rome. And the sources for that, the biblical source is what you cited, one Peter 5:13, which talks about from Babylon, which had been destroyed by the way, at least the ancient city of Babylon had been destroyed, even though Iraq was obviously there. There’s other references to that referring to Rome. It’s the

Trent Horn (00:56:05):

Code word.

Sean McDowell (00:56:06):

It’s a code word for that. So there’s that piece. You have some early church fathers when you get into the second century things like, I think it’s the ascension of Isaiah, the apocalypse of Peter that placed him there during the time of Nero. So I think he likely made it there. I don’t know that it’s definitive.

Trent Horn (00:56:25):

Sure.

Sean McDowell (00:56:26):

Some of the archeology is interesting to me in my first- Yeah,

Trent Horn (00:56:29):

I’m curious because there’s been a lot, there have been full length books that have been written about the existence of Peter’s tomb under the Vatican. And so you said this, it’s kind of an interesting part of the investigation.

Sean McDowell (00:56:39):

Yeah. In my first edition, I did not read those. They didn’t strike me as super helpful.

Trent Horn (00:56:45):

Oh, so you were just doing essentially a documentary investigation. What do the documents say versus archeology?

Sean McDowell (00:56:52):

So yes, I think there’s some archeology that can help, like the tomb of say Thomas potentially, or Phillip’s tomb. But the ones that I saw on Peter were not super helpful. And it might be that I just missed some, and I think documents tend to be more clear than archeology does, but between my first edition and the second one, that was one I put a pin and I was like, “You know what? I wonder if I’ve looked into that enough.” So what I could find, it really was a lot of Catholic journalists that were really investigating this. Yes. Kind of a deep dive, peer reviewed, academic take was really hard to find establishing that this is the tomb of Peter. Now, you find the tomb is used early. There’s some references that you find. It was enough to make me say this is at least some corroborative evidence that he was in Peter, and I’m sorry that Peter was in Rome.

(00:57:48):

And some of the skeletons have that missing below the ankles are some of the claims that people make, which could match up with the kind of crucifixion. My point is, I dismissed it in my first assessment. When I came back, I was like, “You know what? I think this is some corroborative evidence, but I still didn’t find it super strong to make the case.” I’d be happy to. I mean, if it showed that Peter was there and he died, I don’t know that that would be consistent with a Catholic view, but I don’t know that that settles it.

Trent Horn (00:58:20):

Oh, certainly not.

Sean McDowell (00:58:21):

And I know that’s not your point, but I’m not asking those questions. I was solely looking at this saying, “Does this help establish Peter was their diet as a martyr?” Exactly. And I think it’s corroborative, but I didn’t find it as strong as some of the other sources. Again, if somebody’s watching this in your world and I’m missing something, send it my way. I would love to see it.

Trent Horn (00:58:39):

Well, add it all up. And then if you ever enter the third edition, it’s the stronger evidence from Josephus, the stronger evidence from archeology for pettrine martyrdom in the city of Rome.That is always the hard thing when we’re writing a lot of this stuff. I think it said that art is never finished. It’s only abandoned. I think that’s similar to academic work.

Sean McDowell (00:59:00):

There’s some truth to that.

Trent Horn (00:59:01):

It’s like you write your book. I mean, I’m grateful that I was able to do a second edition for my book Persuasive Pro Life. The first edition I wrote in 2014, I did a second edition of that after Roe versus Wade was overturned. And so I’m glad because that was my second book and I was like, “Ugh, I still was really rough as a writer, could clean the thing up.”

Sean McDowell (00:59:21):

That’s awesome.

Trent Horn (00:59:22):

And so now I think that happens. You write something a long time ago, you’re like, “Oof, do I fix it? ” Well,

Sean McDowell (00:59:28):

My first- Or abandon it.

Trent Horn (00:59:29):

Well, my very first book was Answering Atheism. I still like that book. I still think it’s a good book. I have no plans to do a second edition of that book. I am just going to let it fall. It’s going to fall from the press stillborn. Serve this purpose. It will die on the vine and it will be replaced with something else that will come in. Honestly, I do want to write another treatment of atheism because I have, in my studies on it, I’ve changed my mind on how I formulate the Kalam argument, for example. There’s Or the moral argument. I wrote that book in 2013. I bet maybe I might even just do something like that for 2030, 20 years later. It’s like, all right, now it’s time to take another crack at it. But I think that’s for all of us as apologists to have that humility of be like, “Hey, I want to lead people to the Lord.

(01:00:18):

If I waited until I mastered every subject, I’m not going to lead a single person.”

Sean McDowell (01:00:22):

Oh my goodness. Yeah. Yeah, just go

Trent Horn (01:00:24):

Sometimes.

Sean McDowell (01:00:25):

And by the way, back to your earlier point, I do think Peter made it to Rome and I think there’s some good testimony for it. My point is I just don’t think it’s as early and strong as Paul.

Trent Horn (01:00:33):

Yeah.

Sean McDowell (01:00:34):

All of your claims are comparative. Yeah. In the second century, even from the acts of Peter, the end of the second century through some of the church fathers, through the apocalypse of Peter, it seems to consistently hint he was in Rome during the time of Nero. I just can’t historically establish it as firmly as I can say Paul. That’s what I’m trying to do in this is cross T’s and dot the I’s.

Trent Horn (01:01:00):

Well yeah, because you’re wanting to say, “Hey, okay.” And that’s always a bit of a tension, I guess, when you … I guess because people always make this caricature of conservative, Christian academics like, “Well, you can’t do scholarship. You just sign your statement of faith and believe the Bible’s inerrant and that’s that. ” And it’s like, well, no, we can do that. I mean, there’s so many people that will sign those statements of inerrancy and they’ll deny a lot of biblical events. It’s so funny, the skeptics caricature of conservative, whether it’s evangelical or Catholic scholars, I don’t know if that’s something you’ve encountered, you see on the outside and you might say, “Hey, I’ve been on the inside and I can tell you it’s not as some weird, rigid fundamentalism you might think it is.

Sean McDowell (01:01:45):

” Oh my goodness. My colleagues at Talbot School of Theology do some remarkable scholarship. Yeah. I mean, we have some of the leading scholars in the world. Clint Arnold, he wrote the commentary on acts and is respected well outside of the evangelical world for that. J.P. Morrill, you know, has worked on Blackwell, The Companion that recently came out his book on the Philosophy of Mind. So they’re publishing in evangelical presses and in non-evangelical presses at the highest level. But I think one of the differences, and maybe I imagine this is true for Catholic scholars, is if you’re in the academia, you might not have to be as aware of your presuppositions because you just hold them. I mean, the non-Christian academia, and they’re largely accepted by a lot of people. I’m well aware that my assumptions are not accepted, and I have to think them through, and I have to justify them, and I have to document them.

(01:02:43):

And so some ways it can actually help evangelical scholars be more careful because they’re writing for a critical audience that might not even be aware of the assumptions that we have. So to answer your question, yeah, I think it’s totally a caricature to say good work can’t be done.

Trent Horn (01:03:01):

And you’re right though about writing for that kind of an audience. This kind of brings a full circle that when you started the question, did the apostles die for a lie? I mean, it’s easy for you to talk about that for evangelicals in your youth group to reinforce what everybody believes. And like, “Well, of course, yeah, we would die for a lie,” because there’s no one from the outside to say, “Well, how do you know that? ” And then so when we write for non-Christian audiences, actually that can be really good for the church because there’s an outside voice to say, “Well, how do you know that? ” Same for me as a Catholic, to have Protestants who say, “How do you know that? How do you know that interpretation to sound?” We always kind of need that other voice by nipping at the heels to keep us, oh yeah, to keep us on track on that.

Sean McDowell (01:03:40):

You do a good job at that, by the way. I want to encourage you. I see a lot of conversation that you have. I think I told you this, I love the conversation with Allie Beth Stuckey when you got into issues with Mary and others. I was like, “This is a substantive, not spicy, but you were going back and forth and clarifying. So keep doing that. That’s how we see our blind spots. I enjoy doing that. ” And

Trent Horn (01:04:02):

That’s the goal. And that’s what I want to have, especially when I talk with fellow Christians when we have our theological differences. Although really what’s interesting is you can apply that same thing even amongst Protestants, like a Calvinist talking to a non-Calvinist, being able to have those same kinds of discussions, pushback that is charitable, but assertive. I think it’s important to be able to have all of that. Though for me, and I’ve mentioned this to you before, my goal really with Council Chime, I want to share the Catholic faith with people, but I want the people to reach the people, the most people who are the furthest away from Jesus. So that’s why I was still so pumped that I got to do that follow up to you on the arguments for God. That was one of my

Sean McDowell (01:04:46):

Most- I love that.

Trent Horn (01:04:47):

That was one of my most fun episodes to do because it was so cool of an idea that you went through and asked all of these apologists what’s their favorite. And looking through the list, I’m like, “What would my Catholic colleagues say for this answer?” Because it’s interesting, any kind of apologetic, we’re like, “What do you like to use? What do you like to use?” And everybody has their little mini debates about what is and isn’t the most effective. But I think that’s another way we could just learn from each other because each of us, it’s kind of like in the world of jiu-jitsu where I live, everyone’s like, “Well, what do you like? I like leg locks,” or, “Oh, I like north, south, neck holds and all that. ” And I think it’s kind of interesting, there’s going to be some arguments that are more or less effective, but even in jiu-jitsu, we’ll have moves that like, “Yeah, you like that into your favor, but that one just doesn’t work for me as well.” Yeah, you do smash and pass because you weigh 280 pounds.

(01:05:37):

I got to be a guard player on my back with my legs keeping these big guys off me. Do you think that’s something similar? There’s all these arguments out there to present the Christian faith. A little of it has to do with, well, how does the argument just click with you as a person to make sense?

Sean McDowell (01:05:51):

Oh, for sure. I think when my dad was the only one who gave the prophecy argument, the only one out of a hundred apologists,

(01:05:59):

But that clicked with him. It made sense. Yes. It doesn’t click as much with me. I am philosophically wired. And so my top argument was the moral argument. If I had to pick one, that’s the one that I would pick. And so yeah, there’s an element where we just kind of have to figure out who are we, what’s our giftings, what’s our contribution? Try to be this person and not be that person. And I’ve dealt with that my whole life and it’s fine, but people are constantly comparing me to my dad still. And I settled a long time ago in my mind. I was like, “You know what? I’m not competing with him. That’s probably a losing proposition.” Anyways, I just want to be the unique person that God has made me to be. And a part of that is, like you said, what arguments are compelling to me?

(01:06:43):

The other thing we also have to keep in mind is Jesus ministered to people based on where they were at. So just because I find an argument compelling doesn’t mean I should force somebody to listen to it. I want to ask questions, listen where you’re at, find out what your objection may be. Like it says in Proverbs, what is it, 20 verse five, this is the purposes in a man’s heart are deep and a man of wisdom draws it out. I want to find out where this person is at and then tailor my argument to them. Or

Trent Horn (01:07:13):

Where Jesus says in the sermon on the mount, where your treasure is, they’re also your heart will be. And it’s like, well, what do they intellectually treasure? That’s also where their heart is going to be and where the argument can move. It’s just so interesting to hear you share this about your dad because I have a different standpoint. My parents were not really … Well, my dad’s not religious at all and my- Still,

Sean McDowell (01:07:35):

Still not.

Trent Horn (01:07:36):

Still not. A prophet is not accepted. I don’t know. He might be coming around on Jesus. I’m hoping. A prophet is not accepted in his own homeland. I understand.

Sean McDowell (01:07:44):

Some people

Trent Horn (01:07:44):

Are like, “Well, why can’t you even convert your own dad?” I’m like, last Jesus, he couldn’t get everybody in Nazareth even. They see this guy and they’re like, “This guy, I remember when he ran around in diapers. This guy’s your Messiah. Come on. ” So my mom was Catholic, became more non-denominational Christian, but they certainly wore apologetic archetypes for sure. I’ve had to strike that out on my own. And so now it’s like I see my son and I don’t know, he is just absolutely on fire. They did prayers.

Sean McDowell (01:08:18):

Is this your oldest one?

Trent Horn (01:08:19):

My oldest son. Yeah, he’s absolutely on fire. We’ll just witness to people, even if it would be uncomfortable for you or I, he wants to just go for it. Well, when I did, I gave a talk at Seek, a big Catholic conference. There are 5,000 people in the audience. Cool. And I said, “Hey, can I have someone come up? I’m going to do a role play exercise where I was doing kind of the cocoa thing where I’m just going to only ask questions and you give me objections. I’m going to Socratically reply to you. ” And he just bolts up on stage.

(01:08:52):

11 years old, 5,000 people in the audience doesn’t phase him at all, wants to model the apologetics for everybody. I love it. I love it. Part of me is like, if he grew up and carried on a legacy like you’re doing for your dad, I would be very proud. But also I kind of have a feeling of like, I don’t want you necessarily to have to have the burdens that I’ve had in this. Maybe I almost would want you to have something different. But I mean, ultimately, it’s not up to me. Just the same with you and your son. It’s not up to you. It’s like God calls him. We have to be like, “I’ll help you wherever you feel like he’s called you to. ” Is that kind of where you’re at?

Sean McDowell (01:09:28):

Yeah. It’s interesting at my dad’s, I think it was, if I remember correctly, like 60th year celebration with Cru. I was trying to think

Trent Horn (01:09:38):

About- Formerly campus crusade

Sean McDowell (01:09:39):

For

Trent Horn (01:09:39):

Christ. Yes.

Sean McDowell (01:09:40):

Camps crusade for Christ. I just can’t

Trent Horn (01:09:41):

Say crusades anymore.

Sean McDowell (01:09:43):

Exactly. That was a part of shifting it. So crew, and I think it was at that. And I was trying to think through my mind, what’s something I haven’t really publicly said to my dad, because he’s 86 that I want to make sure I say to him. And it hit me. I just went up there. I was like, “Dad, thank you for never, ever pressuring me, putting expectation on me, saying, you know what, son, you ought to write a book. You’d be a great speaker. Come along with me. Here’s how I do this. ” He never ever put that pressure on me whatsoever. And I think there’s a lot of reasons to that, but not every, let’s just say, not just apologists, but Christian leader does that with their kids. Think about

Trent Horn (01:10:22):

Pastors. Well, you think about the trope of the pastor’s kid that goes wrong.

Sean McDowell (01:10:27):

Yeah. And there’s different reasons for that. I understand in the history of the world, if you’re a blacksmith, you’re going to train your kid up to be blacksmith. There’s something to be said of just passing that on, but the weight that you talked about in ministry, the fact that my dad never put that on me. So I actually talked with my son about it in a way that my dad didn’t with me because I think there’s a difference between being a first generation apologist. And then, I mean, in my dad’s case, just figuring out what it even meant to be a functional dad. And he was a great dad, by the way. And then being a second generation who has that experience and leading on my own and then having kids. So I navigate it quite a bit with my son and help him think it through because he’s shown a desire to start leaning into this.

(01:11:11):

But yeah, I think sounds like we see it pretty similarly.

Trent Horn (01:11:15):

I think so. Well, this has been a lot of fun. Where can people go just to learn more about some of your projects? I think you have a podcast or multiple podcasts at least. You have a podcast. I was on it.

Sean McDowell (01:11:27):

You were on it. Correct. Yeah. So I have a YouTube channel, do a couple of videos a week, really similar to a lot of the content that you produce here. And I would say to your viewers in terms of the spirit, I love the way you interact with people. You take your real intellectual approach and give some depth, try to do the same kind of thing. Have an audio podcast that I co-head up, so to speak, called Think Biblically with Scott Ray, who’s a philosopher. And we do a weekly cultural update and then we do interviews there. But then probably the hub would be seanmcdowell.org, my website, links to Instagram, links to my books, my speaking stuff. I’m on X, do a little bit on Twitter. Love and hate that. But the hub would probably be seanmacdowll.org links to the different things if people are interested.

Trent Horn (01:12:15):

All right. We will link to that. We’ll also link people get a copy of Fate of the Apostles. Definitely would recommend them to pick that up. And this was great. And next time I’m in LA to enjoy Southern California weather, we’ll have to get a group together at Biola, do some discussions, ecumenical work. Be a lot of fun.

Sean McDowell (01:12:34):

I would love it. We’ll do it in a heartbeat.

Trent Horn (01:12:35):

Let’s do it. All right. Thank you guys so much. I hope you all have a very blessed day.