Audio only:
In this episode Trent sits down with popular Christian apologist @GodLogicApologetics .
The Shocking Truth Behind Jehovah’s Witnesses (Living Waters): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnpl6gRjNOY
Answering a Muslim Apologist: https://youtu.be/vtVW7y4r4cE?si=tHX__k1SEh9CtBv9
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Transcript:
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:12:19
Welcome, everyone, to the Council of Trent podcast today. My guest is Avery, aka God Logic. He’s been doing a lot of debates with Muslims with non Trinitarians. He’s really blown up out there. So I’m excited to share his work with you guys.
00:00:12:19 - 00:00:30:25
And yeah. Avery, welcome to Council of Trent. Thank you man I’ve been seeing this stuff online and my feet I’m like, man, this is this guy’s dope. So I’m happy to be here. Can’t wait to. And now you get to see where all the magic. I get to see where it happens, man. Where it all goes down. People are always like.
00:00:31:00 - 00:00:46:15
It’s a lot smaller than I thought it would be. Well, you know, for me, it’s. I got a small little room where I just do my streams is. So for me. This is. This is nice. It’s real nice. It’s always funny when you meet YouTubers, too. I always feel like when you meet a YouTuber, a lot of times they’re usually like taller or bigger.
00:00:46:20 - 00:01:04:12
You think they’re going to be like, when I met Alex O’Connor, I’m like, wow, you’re really tall. Yeah, he was tall. Yeah. I did not think you were going to be. I feel like you watch them on your phone. They look just 34in high. Yeah, well, they the way I angle my camera to doesn’t help either, but, yeah, I’m actually I’m six foot flat.
00:01:04:13 - 00:01:25:26
Like, I just I barely made it, you know. And so now I get to tell everybody as long as you can have, as long as you have the six you’re doing, you’re doing all right. Yeah, I made it. I used to be able, I never would, I never tried to claw it. Six I think when I was around, more like your age, I used to say like confidently 511 now I think, like when my hair is extra fluffy, I’m like at 510 because.
00:01:26:01 - 00:01:44:25
Because you shrink as you get older and I’m feeling it. So enjoy. Enjoy the six now and then when you get 40 or 50, it’s like I’m almost stuff because I’m telling you, man, I was like telling all my friends before I went to the doctor like, yeah, I’m six foot. I don’t care what y’all say, right? I go to the doctor, got my proof, and I barely made it.
00:01:44:26 - 00:02:04:07
So you’re telling me I’m about to lose it now? Right now, time comes everywhere. You’re you’re starting out well right now. So why don’t you tell us some my audience orange familiar with your work? What do you focus on as an apologist? And how did you get started with this? Because this feels. I don’t know how long. How long have you been doing this online?
00:02:04:09 - 00:02:21:08
For years now. YouTube. I was we were just talking about clubhouse. I was on clubhouse for about two years before I started YouTube. Okay. So I really got sharpened up really on clubhouse a lot. Tell our listeners, because we were talking about it earlier, I’m not as familiar with clubhouse. It’s sort of like an interactive, like chat feature.
00:02:21:08 - 00:02:41:29
And a lot of people for different like topics. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, you can find whatever you’re interested in, whether it’s music, cooking, anything, stocks. And so obviously my field was, you know, my friends told me, hey man, you would love clubhouse. So I went to clubhouse, I searched man where the Muslims at? I put in Muslims and their rooms started popping up.
00:02:41:29 - 00:02:59:05
I said, yes, I was like a kid in a candy shop, you know. So this is one where it’s just rooms are just muslins are hanging out. Yeah. Muslims are either hanging out there debating, you know, they got all kinds of topics. Jesus is not God. Bibles corrupted. Paul’s a liar, all this kind of stuff. And I just like I found my people.
00:02:59:06 - 00:03:17:00
Yeah. You know, and so so that’s what clubhouse was. So I started also running my own rooms there and my own topics. And that’s how a lot of people got affiliated with me and what I do and my, my style. And then started YouTube once I felt ready or God called me. Well, let me tell you, what’s your background a little bit then.
00:03:17:01 - 00:03:50:08
As a Christian, have you always grown up as a Christian, or is this something you kind of came to later in life? Yeah, man. So I grew up, my dad is a pastor and my mom’s family, they were all pastors and preachers and evangelists and stuff like that. So they I there was never a time where I don’t I remember not believing in Christ, you know, and I grew up trying to tell my friends, hey, don’t say please, God, forgive me when you when you say it, you know, and you’re so sweet and you didn’t turn into, like, the pastor’s kid who like, because there’s a stereotype.
00:03:50:09 - 00:04:09:17
Like you got the pastor’s kid who’s like, I don’t want to be like everything my dad is. And they go off the rails and didn’t happen to, you know, my dad. He was cool, man. He was he he he both he and my mom, they did it. They gave us Christianity naturally. Like, you know, gave us they made the Bible fun, you know, involved our cousins and the sun.
00:04:09:18 - 00:04:30:09
Like, it was cool. You know, I had a good time learning the stories. I had a good my dad, when he preached and came home, he was the same guy on the pulpit, you know, funny, silly, witty and presented it in a way that we can understand. And so I loved that, and I loved how my dad, what he wasn’t he didn’t switch up when he was in front of me.
00:04:30:09 - 00:04:50:03
He’s not fake. And I think a lot of kids, especially like the pastor’s kid thing, it’s like you see your dad act one way on Sunday, but then you see how he’s really like during the week and he get disenchanted. Exactly, exactly. So I learned a lot from that. Just watching that, observing that character. And I, you know, once I began to get in ministry, I was like, yeah, I’m always going to be myself.
00:04:50:03 - 00:05:12:13
And that’s what they taught us to always be yourself no matter what. Yeah. And so yeah, so that was my background, man. I grew up, you know, you know, leading youth ministries and being part of Bible studies, young adult Bible studies and stuff like that. But I never knew about apologetics. That was I never knew that existed. You know, I just thought it’s preaching sermons, preaching, Bible study, teaching, Bible study.
00:05:12:14 - 00:05:31:21
You know what I’m saying? It was a charismatic church. So, yeah, singing and worship and all this kind of stuff and a lot, you know, people being slain and spirit in the spirit, you know, touch your neighbor and tell them God’s going to do it for, you know, that kind of stuff. You’ve got the you got the one handed high five, you got you got the I was the bull.
00:05:31:23 - 00:05:53:05
I always said you’re holding the big bowl in front of you. Yeah, yeah. So now that was my culture, man. That was my culture. But once I got so I went to a community college. And that’s why I began to see Jehovah’s Witnesses set up there. Stan. Yeah. And I was really curious. And so I went over to ask them questions.
00:05:53:05 - 00:06:16:13
And that’s when I got challenged for the first time theologically. And I didn’t know how to respond in the moment. I didn’t know how to I didn’t have the presence of mind to read in context. You know, they showed me Colossians 115 about Jesus being first born of creation. And I’m like, oh yeah, does that mean he was the first thing that was made?
00:06:16:13 - 00:06:33:09
And he’s like, well, how can he be God if he’s made. Exactly? Because, yeah, it’s hard if if you’re, you’re preach and you know, all of the great because that’s how I was kind of in junior high. Like I knew the stories of the Bible and I thought they were great stories, but I didn’t know the reasons and I didn’t know, like the attacks.
00:06:33:11 - 00:06:46:24
Yes. Like, if you if you know the attacks beforehand, they don’t throw you off your game. But if you get them for the first time, it’s like somebody who gets like attacked on the street and they don’t have martial arts training. You get punched in the face, you’re like, what the heck was that? Yeah, that’s kind of like you.
00:06:46:26 - 00:07:01:25
The Joe was witness like, we’ll do that to you. That hits you with scripture. Like, wait, what’s that? And you’re startled and but it makes you want to be like, okay, I gotta learn this, man. That’s when it woke me up. It woke me up to a whole new light because. So I’m calling at the time, and I know I’ve read the Bible at this point.
00:07:01:25 - 00:07:22:20
I’ve read the Bible through at least twice, you know. So I’ve seen John one one, I’ve seen John 1030, and I’ve seen all these, you know, go to verses. But none of that stuff popped up in my head. And so I called dad. I’m like, dad, is it Jesus? God in the Bible said, yeah. I said, where man John one one is the word was with God, where it was God.
00:07:22:20 - 00:07:47:11
You start quoting all the gold two passages. I’m like, da! Yeah, but I didn’t have the sense to bring this up because I was shook. So I was like, okay, so there’s it’s different from reading it and even knowing it then as opposed to being challenged and, and criticized, you know, critiqued, scrutinized. And so I was like, man, I wasn’t equipped, I’m not equipped.
00:07:47:17 - 00:08:06:14
And so if I’m not equipped, then I know my peers who also help teach these Bible studies and lead these young adult ministries and events, I know they’re not equipped either. And if we’re not equipped and we’re like kind of the above the slight average, right? We thought so those lower than us who we’re teaching and running with and leading, they don’t know anything.
00:08:06:15 - 00:08:27:18
The second they run into a Jehovah’s Witness, it’s over. It’s over. So I was like, yeah, no. So I got to get equipped. And I that put it in perspective to me, that believers as a whole need to be equipped to handle these quotes and answer them. Yeah. So that’s when God birth God logic. Okay. Started you started relying in the logic of God studying, getting our why.
00:08:27:20 - 00:08:49:03
Why should I trust the Bible? Why Jesus? Why the resurrection? Why is he God and not just a created son man? And I felt so much more in love with Christ. Yeah. Knowing this, that like you’re true. Like you actually are true. Not that I feel it and experience it. And you’re true. Like like logically you’re historically true.
00:08:49:05 - 00:09:10:18
You’re you’re you match reality. You know so well. So you’re you’re going into that. What were were there like certain people that you kind of look to as like mentors or people you studied from to try to like get better at this? Or do you just kind of like plan your own, like, kind of curriculum? Well, so I’ve been I hate YouTube University, man, just watching what everyone else is doing.
00:09:10:19 - 00:09:31:00
Yeah. Watch what everybody is. So my first the first guy that I that caught me on YouTube was Ray Comfort at Living Waters. And so because he, you know, I’m looking I’m literally looking up. Are you a lawyer? How many laws have you ever told you? You’re like, I’m not a liar. If you have any motives, have you done it?
00:09:31:00 - 00:09:49:08
Only takes one murder to be a murder only takes one lie to be a liar. Yeah. That’s crazy. That’s that’s too good. I’ve seen. I’ve seen a bit. One day I’d love to sit down with Ray. We’ll have to. I’ll have to see. But. Yeah, but you see, and I think that benefits you because you definitely seem ordered towards a lot of that street evangelism.
00:09:49:08 - 00:10:03:26
Just let me just talk to you. Yeah. And share the gospel with you. And that’s what he’s done for like, ever. So I’ve always been a people person. So I love people. I’m open. I’m an extrovert so I can talk to anyone. I love talking to people. And so when I saw what he was doing, I was like, I can do that.
00:10:03:27 - 00:10:24:06
Yeah. You know, but how do I do that? So I was I binged Living Waters, I binged it, you know, I just loved how he made it easy to present the gospel and to talk to anyone and convince them and persuade them, make them think. He asked good questions. And so I was like, I love that tactic. Like, that is awesome.
00:10:24:06 - 00:10:39:26
He also had they also had like a series or just a whole little 45 minute special witnesses. Yeah, like and they did it on the coat so that that was right up my alley where I was at the time. So once I saw that, I was like, man, who are these guys? This is awesome. And then I saw them doing the street evangelism.
00:10:39:26 - 00:11:05:01
I said, yes. And so I’m at my college campus. So after like a week of watching them, I was like, all right, I’m ready, let’s go. And you just start talking. I started talking to people. I started giving them the gospel. I started asking them questions. And what do you think happens when you die? And once I started getting those in my reps, it was I started seeing like, wow, a lot of people, they kind of put these thoughts to the side.
00:11:05:02 - 00:11:19:13
They don’t really try to think about these much they have, but they’re like, oh, you know, whatever. Yeah. Until someone actually comes and makes them think about it, it puts it in the forefront of their brain. And not a lot of people are doing that. Well, it’s easy to be distracted nowadays. You’ve got a million, you got a million things on your phone.
00:11:19:18 - 00:11:31:02
You can just do whatever. And you don’t have to think about these things. So it takes someone like you. It’s like, hey, what do you what do you think’s going to happen after you die? Yeah. Like, what do you what’s going to happen if you stand in front of God? How do you think that’s going to go down?
00:11:31:03 - 00:11:47:18
Exactly. And you might think, oh, he’s going to be totally cool with things. So think about who God really is. And then you should be really not so casual. Exactly. And that’s what I liked about how Ray comfort presented it. He made people like, wow, this is this is serious. Like, this isn’t just something I could think about this later.
00:11:47:24 - 00:12:05:15
This is life and death. I loved that element of it, you know? And so then, I’m, you know, James White pops up for me. I start getting James white and Trinitarian as I’m starting to see him. Have you have you read James’s book, The Forgotten Trinity? Not all of it. Okay. I started it a long time ago.
00:12:05:17 - 00:12:18:18
I haven’t finished it. I have a problem where I get to like, chapter five. And then I closed the book. I never get back to it. I don’t know what it is about chapter five in books, man. For me, it’s got to pace yourself. You got you got to be paced with it. Yeah. You might also you know what’s funny?
00:12:18:18 - 00:12:39:05
I’ve been able to get through a lot of books recently by doing audiobooks that might help me. I find, like for me, you know, it’s funny because, like, I’ve listened not just to books but to debates. So sometimes I’ll go on bike rides and like if I go back to a bike ride, even like 15 years later, I’ll be like, I listen to a James White debate in this same spot 15 years ago.
00:12:39:07 - 00:12:56:14
So it’s like, so you might. And that’s helped me to to go through a lot of stuff, put it on audible, do it at like 1.7, 1.8 times speed, and you might find yourself really like moving through books a lot more like not used for you, I would say. So. I mean, everybody has different ways of remembering things.
00:12:56:21 - 00:13:11:18
And so for yourself, you might find just like listening through a book and then maybe just like, hey, you’re sitting down with your wife and saying, like to retain it. Yeah, here’s what I heard. Here’s what I was doing in this book. Because if you just listen and you go off to whatever, it can kind of seep out.
00:13:11:19 - 00:13:29:02
Yeah, but you might find it helpful. Listen and then explain to somebody else because, like, even for me, I’ve been able to learn a lot doing different kinds of theology by just making making an episode even. It’s on like a new topic. It’s like, oh, because I got to learn it well enough to share it with other people, and I’m sure the same things happen to you.
00:13:29:02 - 00:13:45:29
It’s like in order for you to debate, you have to know it in order to debate it. Yeah, exactly. So so you get ready for like a debate. It’s like, oh, now it’s really indeed. Yep. I learn a topic. Yeah. Okay, I’ll try that. I’ll try edible and see because I like to take notes. To what? What else?
00:13:46:00 - 00:14:07:13
What has helped me I listened to a lot of debates. Yeah. Especially in that era. I was listening Frank Turk debates, James White debates, Anthony Rogers. That’s that’s this. So this is when I’m starting to, like, get in, see David Wood and those guys pop up when I’m still going into the DD of Christ. And then Nick pops up the the Muslim apologist.
00:14:07:14 - 00:14:28:18
Yeah. I mean, the big I mean the biggest one, you know, show me one unequivocal one on the biggest statement of what Jesus himself says, I am God. Worship me. That that dude. Yeah. And so many thousands of people, thousands of people in the stadium filled out clapping and lifts, listing out verses off the top of his head and yeah, no, unchallenged.
00:14:28:23 - 00:14:50:13
And so he’s looking like, yeah, no one can touch him, but I’m listening. So that’s when David would and them they, they come on Jesus or Muhammad and they’re making response videos to him. Yes. And I loved that. I said, yo, they’re different, you know, because they’re actually they’re, they’re dealing with objections with a different style, a different kind of attitude.
00:14:50:13 - 00:15:12:09
And they’re dealing with a different group that has a different attitude. Like these guys were loud. Well, Muslim apologetics and Muslim apologists. It’s the strangest thing to me because it’s like, if you think about it, a lot of it’s similar to other Unitarians, like, you know, Christ is not God. Trinity isn’t true. But then, I don’t know, Muslims will have just like the oddest objections I’ve ever seen.
00:15:12:17 - 00:15:33:17
I’ve come from. I think I’m A1I was dealing with said, you know, the Bible’s corrupted and there’s parts where clearly are not true. Like when Jesus is overcoming Satan’s temptations on the mountain. He was saying something like, this is not true. If Saint came to me and tempt me, I would hit him with a bat and I would say, get away from me, Satan and said, You’re Jesus.
00:15:33:17 - 00:15:47:21
He goes on a mountain hike with the devil. He’s going hiking with the devil in the mountains. I’m like, what are you talking about? Yeah. What are you. But it’s like this idea. They’ll come in with these. It’s so funny. With some Muslim objections. It’s so, like, beyond what you’re used to. You’re like, I don’t even know. I’ve never even heard this.
00:15:47:26 - 00:16:07:06
I respond to this. Yeah, I know if that happens to you all the time, man. There’s. So it happens so much to where I got. I started noting it down. Yeah, I started noting it down. When a muslim comes and gives me the most ridiculous objection or the most ridiculous thing that he says, I put it in what I, what I have is a red notebook.
00:16:07:07 - 00:16:28:29
It’s called the Red book now. So everybody is like every published the red book published the Red book, you know. And so I note down the date and what they said exactly. And they say the most outlandish things to wear because I always I’m like, man, you can’t make this stuff up. If I were to go to someone else and tell them, hey, man, I just did a three hour stream and you wouldn’t believe what this Muslim told me and repeat it.
00:16:28:29 - 00:16:53:20
They’ll think I’m an Islamophobic. They’ll think I’m just hating like I. I’m not making this stuff up. He said it, you know. Yeah. So yeah, Muslims are are on another level. But it is it’s interesting that it, I think a way to try to compensate for the lack of, of rigorous argument is like this sort of loud, boisterous, you know, this this like dominate a strong I, you know.
00:16:53:21 - 00:17:12:01
Yeah. I don’t know what the Arabic equivalent of the word machismo is, but they would be. But there needs to be something like that to, to define it. And I think and I think that’s hard for a lot of people who want to do apologetics that they can. Do you think they can be kind of put off or intimidated by that attitude, and they don’t want to like, engage Musk 100%?
00:17:12:01 - 00:17:35:17
Yeah, I know, because, you know, there’s people that transition over from debating atheists and academic scenarios to where when you when you get to the Muslims, it’s not really any it’s not academic anymore. It’s more like kind of a like a wrestling match. Yeah. You know, there’s there’s not really intellectual integrity and honesty there to where there’s honest concessions or honest acknowledgment of good points.
00:17:35:17 - 00:17:52:03
It’s not that’s rare in dealing with Muslims, especially popular Muslim apologists. Forget it. You won’t you won’t get it. From what I’ve noticed. And I don’t know what you think of this as like a strategy. I feel like when I see them engage Christian apologists, their strategy tends to be something like this. Here’s a bunch of problems of Christianity.
00:17:52:03 - 00:18:15:09
I’m going to dump all these problems on you and you can’t solve them. And look, Islam is really simple, so you should just be a muslim. Yeah. And I feel like that’s their go to game. So for me, like if I were to debate and I’ve offered with different Muslims to do a debate and they declined, one Muslim apologist I wanted, oh, we were going he wanted to do a debate, one debate called Islam versus Christianity.
00:18:15:11 - 00:18:34:02
So he wanted to do that. And I said, no, no, no. I’ll do two debates. Yeah. I’ll do. Is Christianity true and is Islam true? He wouldn’t do it, of course, because in the because then I could at least focus on the is the Islam trigger. Say look. And I’ve said this before I’m episodes. I said even if I weren’t a Christian I would not be a muslim.
00:18:34:05 - 00:18:56:26
And so there it’s like, all right, now you can’t just evade and distract with here’s problems, Christianity. You give me a good reason to think Muhammad is a prophet and the Quran is inspired. Yeah, well, it talks about the it talks about the oceans being separated. Look at this. And it becomes almost because like we have some of those shallow arguments for Christianity and like the top Christian apologist, don’t go anywhere.
00:18:56:27 - 00:19:16:27
Exactly. So what I’m referring to for our listeners is an argument called pre scientific foreknowledge. So the idea is the thing is there’s some Christians will say the Bible is inspired because it talks about things ancient people could not have known about. And I don’t like that argument. It’s weak. But Muslims I don’t know from your perspective, they rely on it a lot.
00:19:16:29 - 00:19:41:07
Golden for them. Like and a lot of times it’s been quite effective with certain Muslims in breaking down the walls of Islam. Yeah. Because this is what they’ve been fed. Yeah. Like this. These we have these golden tickets for why Islam is true and no one else has these, you know, scientific miracles and Prius scientific knowledge and discover like we’re just now discovering this stuff.
00:19:41:07 - 00:20:12:20
And when you when you break that down and show why that’s a weak argument and why that doesn’t work for a muslim, it it tears it all down, you know, it opens a wide door, not just a small it opens up a wide door. There’s another thing I’ve wanted to look into, and I’d love to see your thoughts from what Muslims put forward, because I find Christianity has a lot going for it in terms of miraculous evidence, especially like when you, if you think like the central miracle of Christianity is the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
00:20:12:21 - 00:20:38:08
The central miracle of Islam is just the Quran itself. And so but they’re not equal in evidence at all. But then even after that, you have lots of evidence. You have. Craig Keener has a two volume book on miracles done within Christian churches. From a charismatic perspective. You know, you have lots of testimony of these things happening. We have, from a Catholic perspective, the miracle of Fatima.
00:20:38:08 - 00:20:59:07
We have a lot of Catholic saints, all of these different miracles. I don’t see Muslims really being able to appeal to the same kind of, you know, for 1400 years, 1400 years of miracles after Muhammad. I don’t see them really doing that at all. Right? Yeah, yeah. No, none of that gets brought up. Yeah. Because I because and to me, I think that’s a glaring difference.
00:20:59:08 - 00:21:26:06
Yeah. It’s huge because one it shows you like we actually have the living God on our side. Yeah. Right. We don’t just have, you know, the historicity on our side and theology. And God has been active in real time and has put his fingerprint on this movement, on this Jesus movement, on the church. Yeah, for 2000 years. And we have so many instances where we can point to it with evidences, with why testimony to it, you know.
00:21:26:07 - 00:21:45:00
Yeah, we have a living God. That’s that’s a huge difference with a with us in Islam. Yeah. The closest thing usually they’ll try to maybe point to some miracles of Muhammad, but they’re always splitting. Moon split is my favorite one. Who was it was Sheikh Usman in California because I used to live in San Diego and he goes to Balboa Park.
00:21:45:01 - 00:22:03:23
You did, I did, I want I wanted to do it, I wanted to I sent a request to him to do a debate, and then I never heard back. He doesn’t do it. He will never. Well, he’ll he’ll get an unsuspecting like, Christian bubble apart, and he’ll berate them like he was doing stuff like, look here, the genealogies of Jesus contradict each other.
00:22:03:23 - 00:22:20:11
So be a muslim. Yeah, that’s him. But I’m like, okay, fine, then come to a debate with me. Show me what is true. And he did a whole episode. He did a whole episode on the moon split, and he’s trying to say like, oh, this prince in India saw the moon split and he became muslin. I’m like, you mean that legend from like 300 years after the fact?
00:22:20:12 - 00:22:46:24
Like, come on. Yeah, but, but I’ll, I’ll link by the heel in the description below. I have an old episode, but. Yeah. Or Muhammad, you know, writing the night flight to Medina. Journey. The night journey. But it’s all whereas the the resurrection is just within a few years. And first Corinthians 15 and then also even especially with like the Catholic miracles I bring up to people, it’s like we have immediate likes in newspapers like me and I witnessed stuff.
00:22:46:24 - 00:23:02:01
So I think and that’s something I’ve been trying to get in more. And I think maybe Christian apologist in general should focus on is like not just the resurrection, but like, look at what God has done in the body of Christ in the last 2000 years. Yeah. And you compare that to every other religion. It’s not the same.
00:23:02:06 - 00:23:22:13
Yep. You don’t have that. So is there anything else, like when you’ve been engaging Muslims that is surprised you? Or like things you’ve had to change and adapt to 100%? So in my clubhouse days like this, I was getting sharpened up. Right? And so it was a it was actually a muslim I was asking you about like early church history earlier, right?
00:23:22:14 - 00:23:42:06
Yeah. Yeah. It was a muslim who taught me that early church history is important because he was dealing with a group of Muslims that only follow the Quran alone. They reject hadith. Yes. And so he was asking them and challenging them and very irritated about it. He was like, you know, you don’t. How do you how did you get the Quran?
00:23:42:08 - 00:24:00:26
Where do you get this from? How do you know what the chapter is? How do you know the fast of prey? What month? You gotta write the details that the Quran doesn’t give. You don’t know how to practice the religion without the hadith, which is true. And so he was like it’s not the same, but it’s very similar to to you, Avery, because you’re a Protestant, you’re a Protestant.
00:24:00:26 - 00:24:27:08
And if I were to ask you, how did you get your canon? If you’re just if your Bible alone in Scripture alone? Yeah. How how did you get this stuff? You wouldn’t be able to tell me. You would have to then rely on. You have to go in the early church history to reconcile this. But then if you’re denying early church history, but you’re accepting what the what what you got from early church, I was like, oh, that’s a good point.
00:24:27:09 - 00:24:47:21
So now early church history is something that you want to look into. Yeah, it’s it’s it’s very important. So this was a long time ago. This is like five years ago. Okay. So but but ever since then it opened me up to, you know, listening to Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism and the historicity behind it, the traditions that are offered.
00:24:47:21 - 00:25:22:07
Right. And so and once I open that up, my knowledge of and doctrine sharpened up immensely. Yeah. You know, and the answers that we have for the Bible is, is so vast. Yeah, we have answers. We have a chain of authorship and and connections to the apostles. I was amazed. And so like for right now I want to get it to into my like make it second nature, you know to where like I can go to I can explain the Trinity like at second nature in the Bible.
00:25:22:12 - 00:25:43:20
I want to be able to do that with church fathers. And yeah, in church history, I want to get to that level there. I’m happy to help you with that. What I would recommend, and I’ll send this to you afterwards, is I would just start with the Apostolic Fathers. So those are because if you try to like someone’s like, oh, I’m going to read all the Church fathers, I’m like, literally, if we laid it out, it would fill up this entire time.
00:25:43:23 - 00:26:01:05
But it’s like a million words, million and a half words. It’s huge. But so the Apostolic Fathers, though, who are writing before the Council of Nicaea, you can get that in about one volume. So it’s like a pretty, you know, somewhat decent sized book, but a single book, and you can go through all of them. And it is fascinating to see what they cling to.
00:26:01:05 - 00:26:22:07
And you can really destroy the claim that, like the divinity of Christ came up at the Council of Nicaea. I mean, you have Ignatius of Antioch talking about Jesus Christ our God in the year A.D. 107. But like for me as a Catholic, then it’s like, okay, if I love that these early church fathers, that they are confident like Jesus is God and God.
00:26:22:09 - 00:26:38:19
You know, God is not just one person, fathers. God the Son is God’s Spirit is God. They’re not the same person and they’re confident in that. Then for me, I was like saying like, oh wow. Here’s other things they’re confident in. Like Ignatius also says, you know, Jesus is God. And so when we receive the Eucharist, it’s not just bread and wine.
00:26:38:19 - 00:26:57:09
We’re receiving the flesh and blood of our Savior who’s been crucified. Or like Ignatius will say, you know, he doesn’t say, follow the Bible because there wasn’t that collection yet. He’s saying like, follow the bishop. Yeah, like Jesus Christ follows the father. So yeah, I’ll send you a collection of the Apostolic Fathers. But if you just go through that.
00:26:57:12 - 00:27:21:15
So I think for me, like, I think it’s so important now if we’re dealing with Muslims and other people who try to rewrite history, try to say, oh, this was all invented in the fourth century. Yeah. No, there’s precursors to it. Yeah. But also like my challenge to Protestants would be if you’re like, well, I believe in this candidate scripture because we receive this the early church believe this in the fourth century, you know, and they have a special connection to the apostles.
00:27:21:18 - 00:27:36:25
Like my question would just be, all right, then ask yourself, what were the other things the early church was really confident on? Yeah. Which in many cases will be disagreed with a lot of modern, at least evangelicals. Yeah. That would be my my thing to have you sort around as you think about when you when you read it.
00:27:36:26 - 00:27:56:08
Yeah for sure. Yeah. That’s the I guess kind of dilemma, you know, that that a lot of people are in even with myself it’s like okay, like, you know, this means that I would have to consider I have to consider these things. You know what? What did they like? What you said. What were they confident in? What were they in common in?
00:27:56:09 - 00:28:18:24
Yeah, we wouldn’t say that there are infallible or everything they say is law. No. Well, we like is so in the Catechism, the Catholic Church, it says that the Church Fathers are a witness of sacred tradition. So we believe that God’s Word exists in a written in an unwritten form. So just like in second 215, when Paul says, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions given to you by word of mouth or by letter.
00:28:18:26 - 00:28:49:19
And so we believe the word of God. There’s a written form in Scripture, but also an unwritten form. So these things would be sacred tradition, like saying, for example, that there’s no more public revelation after the death of the apostles, like the Bible never explicitly says that, that like it’s ever going to like come to an end. And there’s some charismatics who will say, like, the word of the Lord came to me and like they’ll be continuation of all kinds of things and say, no, there might be private revelations to people like God can always speak to anybody.
00:28:49:25 - 00:29:15:21
But there’s. But since the apostles, there has never been anything where God speaks and it’s meant for everyone. And so that’s why, as a Catholic, I can know the Mormons are definitely wrong jobs witnesses are wrong because there will be no more public revelation from the apostles until Christ returns again and brings it into history. So we would believe there’s sacred Scripture and sacred tradition, and that the church is the custodian of both and a lot of sacred tradition.
00:29:15:23 - 00:29:35:05
Honestly, the unwritten word of God is just here’s how you interpret the Word of God, the written word. Yeah. And so that’s, I think, the important elements there. But some of this stuff comes together a bit when and I really appreciate your openness. Like, okay, I got a really look at this and just be honest with it because you’ve kind of had on the question of like, what is the church?
00:29:35:06 - 00:29:52:25
You’ve kind of had some run ins with, with, with you’ve had some run ins with, with the author bros lately who they, they don’t quite take the disposition I’m given to you right now. Correct. They take a little different. Just. Okay. Let me. Oh, God. I’m just gonna ask you to put you on the spot. Who’s. Who’s more who’s more annoying?
00:29:52:26 - 00:30:12:07
The the the Muslims or the author? Bros. Oh, I’ll tell you what. I have to give it to the Auto bros. I’ll tell you why. Okay. Why? The author bros are more annoying because they’re claiming. Christ, that always makes it harder, right? Yeah, that makes it harder. It’s one thing when somebody’s attacking you and they’re not. This has happened to me a lot.
00:30:12:07 - 00:30:29:19
Well, especially as a Catholic, I would say the people that get under my skin the most when they attack me, other traditional Catholics. Yeah. Because I’m like, because it hurts more when it’s someone who should be on your team. Exactly. Because if like a muslim or an atheist attacks me, I’m like, you expect it? You’re supposed to do that.
00:30:29:20 - 00:30:44:20
Yeah. If Jesus says, if the world hated me, the world is going to hate you. It’s like that comes with the territory. But you’d expect if someone’s on your team like, come on, don’t do this to me. Yeah. And so it’s hard if someone claims to be a brother in Christ and then it’s like, why are you treating.
00:30:44:21 - 00:31:05:19
Why are you treating me? And what’s hard for me is I use the term ortho bro, because I know a lot of awesome people who are Eastern Orthodox same, and they are not on the internet a bunch. And they’d be like, what is this? See, it’s a beat. To be clear, the Ortho Bros, for those listening, is a category of certain people.
00:31:05:19 - 00:31:33:03
It’s a it’s a certain category of people that act a certain way that’s outside of the normal, you know, Eastern Orthodox person that you would really meet. Because I have I have a large Orthodox following and support system, and they condemn these weirdos over here. They’re like, these guys don’t represent them well. It’s particular people. And I’ve seen it even with some Catholics and a few Protestants.
00:31:33:03 - 00:31:58:05
But it’s it’s a way of acting where you don’t care about Christian virtue. It’s like you will slander, you’ll abuse, you’ll revile, you will talk and treat people in a way that’s almost like pagan. It lacks just Christian charity to it. And it’s fine to firmly say somebody wrong. That’s not the problem. The problem is just when you were, you were acting like a schoolyard bully.
00:31:58:06 - 00:32:25:11
Exactly. That’s the problem. Yeah. The slander, the lies, the mocking. Yeah. And all that kind of stuff, too. Who’s supposed to be a separate brethren? But I don’t. We’re not brothers. Yeah, you know, that’s not what it feels like. That’s not what it looks like. Yeah, it looks like you’re. You’re an enemy of mine. You’re not acting no different than these guys who who are not in Christ, who are slandering and mocking and, you know, doing all the kind of stuff.
00:32:25:11 - 00:32:52:11
And it doesn’t have to be that way. Like, for example, like like Gavin Auckland and I strongly disagree about stuff. And we can sit down and we can have strong disagreements, but we also treat each other kindly and will team up. Gavin and I did a two on two debate against atheist. Yeah, yeah. And so but we can do that because that’s the thing I think a lot of the author bros or some more further extreme online Christians treat it as like everything has to be a fight.
00:32:52:13 - 00:33:10:14
If I disagree with you. You’re the enemy. Yeah, yeah. But to me, it’s like there’s only one enemy. It’s the father of lies. That’s the only enemy. Yep. Everybody else is just, you know, ensnared by him to varying degrees. Yes, exactly. And so if you see other people in that way, it’s like, okay, I would love to free you from that.
00:33:10:20 - 00:33:32:09
And so they so they were going and this is where they were going after you and their criticism of you. So I had a agree and disagree with it. And so it seemed to me they were mad. You can fill us in a little bit on that because I’m like, why are they getting their basically mad at you for doing your apologetics to just help people believe in Jesus?
00:33:32:14 - 00:33:45:21
And they’re like, that’s not enough. I don’t know if you want to fill in more. Like, what they got mad at you about. Yeah. So what really, it started with, so Jay has been.
00:33:45:24 - 00:34:08:03
Coming after me and trying to debate me like it was random out of nowhere. Jay dyer yeah. Jay Dyer out of nowhere. And so and ironically, the timing was interesting because it was right after I just humiliated Muhammad a job. And that was like going everywhere and blowing up literally right after that. That’s when Jay is like, hey, logic, debate me on what is the true church.
00:34:08:05 - 00:34:32:00
Yeah, and it was interesting because I’ve never had a video or a stream where I had an opinion on what the true church was, or gave any type of objection to either side of what you’re doing is what we would call mere Christian apologetics. It’s similar to like what William Lane Craig was doing, or Josh McDowell. It’s like you want people to believe in God, believe in Jesus, believe in the Trinity, put their faith in Jesus.
00:34:32:01 - 00:34:56:05
Yeah. You want to at least just get them to that. That’s what you’re focusing on? Yes. That’s my that’s what I do. Yeah. And so that’s what they wanted to I respectfully declined. Right. And so then so I, I end 1 or 1 of my so not my streams, but my friend who I work with, he runs the second channel and he had a debate stream hosting a debate.
00:34:56:05 - 00:35:18:05
And then, you know, on YouTube now you can send an audience somewhere, right? Yeah. And so he was trolling one of our other friends. He’s a Protestant who tends to have criticisms against the Orthodox beliefs system. And so but to troll him because he was in the live, there was something I don’t even I wasn’t there, so I don’t even know what the joke was.
00:35:18:05 - 00:35:32:14
But there was a joke going on and he said, okay, everybody, we’re going to go to JP stream. And when we go there, oh, JP didn’t know how to work his technical stream and stuff, like he was struggling and needed his help. So he was like, we’re going to go to the stream and tell him that he doesn’t know how to do his stuff or whatever.
00:35:32:15 - 00:35:50:13
We’ll do. It had nothing to do with the title of his stream. Didn’t even know what a stream wasn’t even set up yet. Yeah, send to everybody over there. And so that’s what happened. You see, God, logic is sending people to an anti orthodox stream. They secretly hate orthodoxy. They pretend to be with you, but they’re really against you.
00:35:50:14 - 00:36:09:29
You see here’s the proof. That’s how it all started. I love that your Arthur Brown person is just a slight variant of the Muslims because like, they like, you know, similar they’re like that. It’s similar telling you they’re they’re almost wanting to say, yeah, I think that because seeing here for you, it’s like, hey, I’m just remotely connected to these people.
00:36:09:29 - 00:36:27:17
And they do that like, look, you look at the body of your work, you’re just trying to get people to believe in Jesus. And so my disagree with the author, a criticism of you is like, for me, like they would say, it’s useless to lead someone to Christ if you don’t lead them to a particular church. I think that’s absolutely false.
00:36:27:18 - 00:36:49:26
A person is always better off if they come to believe in Jesus than if they aren’t. Now, as a Catholic, I want them to fully believe what God has revealed. So I that’s not a stopping point for me, but I recognize it’s better. It’s just better if someone is validly baptized and they have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, it’s just better for that person and then hopefully God can lead them into the fullness of of the truth.
00:36:50:01 - 00:37:07:06
So that’s why I would totally disagree with them. It’s like, no, I love when there are Protestants who are saying, look, I want to. And for me as a Catholic who say, I want to leave you with Jesus, because for me, as a Catholic, honestly, I get kind of like embarrassed when I look at a lot of other Catholics who do apologetics.
00:37:07:09 - 00:37:33:07
It’s like they’re not interested or orthodox too. Sometimes it’s like they’re not interested in just leading people to Jesus. It’s like, I want to refute Protestants, and I wonder if you don’t know if you Orthodox, there’s a place for that. But like the vast majority of in America, like the vast majority is non-religious, like the second largest religion in the world is Islam like, and we’re fighting with each other.
00:37:33:08 - 00:37:52:06
It’s important stuff. But like the people you’re mentioning, like for what you’re learning from, like how to defend like the Trinity, like I do get embarrassed. I’m like, man, we’ve got really solid like Catholic theologians that do that. But where are the apologists? Were just like bringing their eggs. So that’s why I want like my very first book I wrote was Answering Atheism, and then I did a pro-life book.
00:37:52:06 - 00:38:16:29
So it’s like, I want like if a Catholic who is good at like arguing with Protestants, Orthodox, you should be even better when you argue with an atheist or Muslim. Exactly. And usually it’s the reverse. Yep. And so I’m embarrassed by that. Yeah. They have every, every objection in the book against a particular denomination. But when the actual faith is challenged, they can’t really break stuff down or handle the criticism, handle the scrutiny, or handle like the level of objection.
00:38:16:29 - 00:38:45:29
It’s crazy. Yeah. So with me, man, I work with Catholics, I work with Orthodox, I work with Protestants, and I learn so much from whoever is, you know, more seasoned than I am. I learn from everyone and I never can. Like I’m about unity, I love, I just I think we’re so much more powerful when we are united and can respectfully disagree on things without it splitting us up.
00:38:46:00 - 00:39:08:03
Yeah. Like I you know, I know that you and I would have disagreements, and I know for a fact that you can teach me so much, Trent and I would. I’m a I’m a sponge. You teach me, I’ll. I’ll learn it. I’ll absorb it and I’ll study it. That’s how I am, you know? And so our disagreements in my eyes, your brother in the faith will never, ever split us up.
00:39:08:05 - 00:39:30:11
Yeah, never. It’s like like I, I see the body of Christ as Scripture says. Like, you guys are my family. You guys are literally my brothers and sisters. I will fight for y’all. I do fight for us, you know? And so to get the energy from them that they’re giving me, it’s it was weird and like, dang, like, what’s up with you guys?
00:39:30:11 - 00:39:51:09
But this is particular group of people, you know. So you’re going to have your humans are humans regardless. Humans are going to be humans fallen whatever. May God, you know, help them. But I that’s why I, I don’t let that distract me. Sure. I keep doing what I’m doing there. But there is one part of their criticism I agree with a little bit.
00:39:51:14 - 00:40:14:29
What? I’m out here, right? There you go. Thank you for joining us. I’m sure do a podcast. Com and here’s the Christian where I would agree with is I think mere Christianity is a good starting point. But I think a lot of people in your position who might be doing apologetics in this way might be thinking, all right, look, I think at the very least, I’m just going to lead people to the essential doctrines.
00:40:14:29 - 00:40:41:09
And then if you guys want to argue about the non-essentials, that’s fine, as long as you do it charitably and I’ll lead. I just want to lead people. Here’s the bare minimum, the essentials. You got to believe this to be a Christian. These are these are these are the essential things. What I worry is that Protestantism doesn’t have a mechanism for determining what that is, and that it’s not even just, you know, believe in God, believe in Jesus.
00:40:41:09 - 00:40:59:18
Because then it’s like, you know, well, how many, you know, does Jesus have? What does the incarnation mean? Does he have a human mind? Does it have a human will? You know, because we have to get that all right to make sure you’re Christian. Things about original sin, about moral issues, that’s where I would be concerned. It’s like, okay, we I’ll just lead them to the essentials.
00:40:59:21 - 00:41:18:26
But the problem is the Bible never tells us what the essentials are. That’s where I get a little concerned. Okay. I don’t know what you think of that, so I, I feel like. So are you saying, like, the Bible doesn’t say, have a section where it’s like, hey, here are the essentials to be labeled Christian boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
00:41:18:27 - 00:41:37:23
Yeah. It’s more like scattered in there. And you people, people have to kind of make arguments and interpret like this is an essential thing and someone else is actually it’s not essential. You can disagree on that. But then it’s really not clear in that way. So that’s that’s one element of it. So let me ask you this okay.
00:41:37:25 - 00:42:00:18
So before I knew what a church father was, I, I believed in the Trinity. I knew I knew it was biblical. Yeah. The incarnation now, the depths of the incarnation, not so much. Right? Whether Christ has two minds or one minds, stuff like that. Sure. But I did know he had two natures. Yeah, he was both man and God.
00:42:00:19 - 00:42:25:15
Truly. Right. I knew I knew these things without knowing what a church father was, would you say? But like, these are essentials. Yeah, right. But are you saying that not all of the essentials are fleshed out? Or are you saying that that it’s. Well, I agree, people can find some of them. And that’s where I think a lot of Protestants will agree, like here’s like 4 or 5 things and they’ll all pretty much agree on that.
00:42:25:15 - 00:42:49:24
But the problem is they can agree on a handful of things. Yeah, these are essential. But not saying this is what determines what is and isn’t essential, that it ends up being just kind of common consensus, usually from just a shared denominational tradition that people receive. Because I think a lot of people believe in the Trinity, believe in the incarnation, because that was the tradition they received within their own denomination.
00:42:49:24 - 00:43:05:23
And then, of course, we asked, where did that tradition come from? And if you follow that, that’s where we ended the question of the fathers and the history of the church. You know, unless you think unless you think Christianity started in like the 70s when your church was founded or something like that. So I think that that’s one of the elements there.
00:43:05:24 - 00:43:25:03
Yeah. I think the other thing is that as an apologist, one, I think to get people to believe in the Trinity, to believe in Christ and God, I think is so important. And I don’t think people should overstep themselves. People can specialize. Yeah. You’ve got some people who would just be like, I just do Islam or I just do the resurrection.
00:43:25:03 - 00:43:49:03
I just do Jehovah’s Witnesses. So I’m not saying people need to be able to do everything, but I think an apologist should always have this attitude, being I want to lead people, not even necessarily to be Christian, but to believe everything God revealed. And it doesn’t mean they have to do it personally. So they might be like, hey, I do jobs witnesses.
00:43:49:03 - 00:44:07:18
But here’s where I’d recommend you go to get everything God revealed. Yeah, I think, and especially for yourself, I think it’d be good for you to to be able to answer that question, because you could lead people to the Trinity of the incarnation. But the Christian faith, the faith, what God revealed is so much more than that. I think we have a responsibility.
00:44:07:18 - 00:44:30:26
So me as a Catholic, I would point them to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is all of the church’s teachings. I think every apologist should at least be able to say, if you want to find the, you know, the fullness of what God revealed means to be Christian. Yeah, well, not even just to be, because there’s people who can be Christian, but they’re they missed certain teachings, certain certain doctrines, like we talked earlier about people might disagree about soul sleep, for example.
00:44:31:03 - 00:44:51:11
You could be a Christian and you’re just wrong if you think that the soul is unconscious until the second judgment. Yeah, I was I assume you probably think that you could be a Christian, but you’re mistaken about the doctrine of souls. Yeah, but your your goal would be not just to be Christian, but, you know, everything God revealed you under.
00:44:51:14 - 00:45:16:15
You’re not mistaken about these things, right? Right. Doctrine. Yeah. Right. And so being able to point them to it. And for me, some people might say, well, yeah, here’s my apologetics. And if you want the fullness God revealed, here’s the Bible. Then it’s like, hopefully you read it right because people can read it. Look at Jehovah’s Witnesses, a lot of other people, they get to their errors because they take John 1030 or, you know, John 14, six fathers greater than I, and they read it wrong.
00:45:16:17 - 00:45:40:11
Yeah, that’s where the problems show up. Yeah, I agree with you. I do believe that church is important. And I feel like that that is the job of a church like community. Yeah, right. I’m trying to work that kind of that stuff out, you know? Sure. Because I, you know, I don’t I’m not everywhere. I don’t know where everybody lives and where everybody’s connected to, but.
00:45:40:12 - 00:45:52:23
Yeah, but what I would encourage you is to, to dwell on this more that you don’t have to. Because I think it’s unfair for like someone like Jay to be like, defend the true church. Like that’s not my thing. But I do think it’s fair for you to eventually be able to be like, hey, here’s what I defend.
00:45:52:24 - 00:46:09:01
And if you want, if you want more full theology, go here. Yeah, yeah. And then whatever denomination, whatever that might be, and you’ll have to sort that out for yourself. You’re like, okay, well, what denomination has the fullness of what God has revealed? At the very least, that you can at least point them there. You don’t have to defend it all.
00:46:09:01 - 00:46:24:08
You have to be an apologist for everything. But you can be like, I get it from here. You should. You should go there too, because that’s at least like if you trust me on a lot of stuff, I’d point you here. So that’s what I would encourage for you. If that sounds that sounds like it’s wisdom, I accept it.
00:46:24:09 - 00:46:45:19
All right. And I’ll, I’ll give you some resources and we’ll we’ll check that out for sure. Is there is there anything else you’re working on now kind of going in the future? Any other projects you’d be interested in sharing with people? I’m I’m getting into the Colts, so. Okay, I’m actually back on Jehovah’s Witnesses now. I feel like the Lord has been pulling me there and it has been immediately effective.
00:46:45:21 - 00:47:08:03
Like Jehovah’s Witnesses, I’m getting so many testimonies and a lot of them are coming to Christ. They’re leaving the Watchtower Society. Some have left right on stream. We were just talking to a jovial and his girl. Her name is laws. Yeah. Who? She has just accepted that Jesus is God. And our last year. And and accepting the personhood of the Holy Spirit.
00:47:08:06 - 00:47:29:26
And she’s excited to share this stuff with her parents, but she knows it’s going to be tough. Yeah. So but it’s been effective. Yeah. Far more effective than I thought it would. You know, I thought it was going to be a lot of hard headedness and stubbornness, but it’s like God has been working on people’s hearts there. Do you find helping people cultivate that personal relationship with Jesus can break them out of the cult?
00:47:29:26 - 00:47:49:13
Because, you know, like one of my soundbites, have I talked to Mormons? And they’re like, you know, you want to be a mormon? Look at all this stuff. There’s man made doctrines and we’re restoring the gospel, blah, blah, blah. One of my soundbites to just say, look, I could never be a mormon because I could not give up the relationship I have with Jesus Christ right now, because Mormons believe that you should not pray directly to Jesus.
00:47:49:15 - 00:48:13:07
Whoa, yeah. They don’t. You all, yeah, all prayer goes to Heavenly Father. So you have these like you don’t pray directly or to the Holy Spirit, you know, to say, look, I cannot have. I love the Trinitarian God that I can have a full and relationship with the father, son, and with the spirit. Like I can pray, come, Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful and kindle in them the fire of your love.
00:48:13:08 - 00:48:33:29
Yes, but for but for Jehovah’s Witnesses like no, only Jehovah God. For Mormons only. Only Heavenly Father, you know not only you know Elohim, they consider Jesus Jehovah, but but it’s Elohim, it’s Heavenly Mother and Father. Yeah. You know, so I so it’s like for me like just to say like, look, when you know my savior like I do.
00:48:34:00 - 00:48:56:21
Because then when you go back to Jehovah’s Witnesses, like it’s such an impoverished relationship you have with Jesus, because when you take away him being the true God, you just can’t have that same relationship with them anymore. Yeah. It was, yes, 100% about the relationship with with Jesus. In talking with a lot of them, they are realizing how much of how much distance they have with the son.
00:48:56:23 - 00:49:21:27
Yeah. And there it’s convicting them, you know, and seeing how much the son is worth and how we are to honor him the same way we honor the father. We are he we are to glorify him and magnify him. Yeah. And they don’t. And they think that that, you know, they’re doing a good by just, you know, paying attention to the father when the father points to the son and vice versa at some points of the father and the Holy Spirit glorifies the son.
00:49:21:29 - 00:49:44:20
You know, and one of the things and I heard this multiple times is that with Jehovah’s Witnesses, they don’t they actually don’t take part in the Eucharist. You know, when they do the communion, they don’t they don’t eat the bread and drink the wine, okay. They don’t because they are not supposed to their watchtower society, only the anointed class I think is is able to do that if them.
00:49:44:26 - 00:50:01:26
And so those used to be the only guys that got to heaven to then they had to change that. You know it’s been the extend the party invites you know. Yeah. But but that has that bothered a lot of them. They were like, wait, why am I not taking part? Yes. Because this is what my Lord and Savior did for me.
00:50:01:27 - 00:50:18:27
He broke his body for me. He shed his blood for me. Why am I not taking part in this when he. This is what he told us to do. Yeah, and that woke a lot of them up. Yes. When they see like. Hold on a second. This ain’t right. Yeah. When he tells us to do this and to do this in remembrance of him.
00:50:18:27 - 00:50:40:24
But I’m not even taking part in it. Yeah. And so that has affected a lot of them when they realize that distance that was just a few years ago. I remember this controversy because before there was the claim that, you know, only 100, that there was going to be a Paradise Earth. But to go to heaven was only this 144,000 people, and it was restricted to people who were born during a certain time in history.
00:50:40:25 - 00:50:56:26
You know, during the crisis, invisible. I forget all the parameters related to it, but it was only restricted to a certain number of people, like born a while ago. And as those people are dying off, like when they go to the general assemblies only like, oh, he’s taking the Eucharist, that means he’s part of that anointed class. Everyone’s like, yeah.
00:50:56:27 - 00:51:14:20
It’s like, why would why would Jesus exclude me? Like, yeah, they know deep down and God is speaking to them like I would never exclude. I want all people to receive. John six is clear on this. You eat my. Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no light within you. It’s for everybody. Yeah. And then yeah.
00:51:14:20 - 00:51:34:14
So I love that that for them to be able to see that and to come to know who the real Jesus is. Yeah. You know what’s interesting? Also what Joe’s witnesses, I don’t know, because you have a charismatic background. I don’t know if this is helpful when you’re talking to some of them because their spiritual life, when you look at their Kingdom Hall and like their services, it’s very spiritually dry.
00:51:34:15 - 00:52:06:19
But listen, I’ve been in quite a few of their services. Yeah, right. I forced myself to because, you know, I was on a mission, but my goodness, I mean dryness, no type of individual thinking. No. Like no true worship from the heart. You know, it’s just there’s like reading articles. Yes. Reading articles. And it’s so they’ll read the article line and ask the question based on the article line that they just and it’s basically like a, Jesus.
00:52:06:19 - 00:52:29:13
Jesus was led into the wilderness. What where was Jesus led the wilderness? Yes. The wilderness. What? It’s like there’s no I see why you’d want to call it a cult. Yeah. My, it’s just, like, scary. It’s just, you know, massaging the brain enough to just just take in the information, stay committed, go out, get more people. But that that wears you down.
00:52:29:13 - 00:52:49:06
If you don’t have that rest in the Lord that scripture promises. Yep. And so. But a lot of them, they’re trained to evade. They’re trained to follow. It’s it’s similar to Muslims how it’s you know, our scholars say this, you know, the top seer says this, our commentator says this, our scholar, our scholar. Scholar for them, it’s the Watchtower says this.
00:52:49:06 - 00:53:06:14
This is how they they say this the watchtower, the watchtower, the watchtower. But when you press them, though, what’s funny, though, is, and I think this is important to press them on, they’ve had to admit that because The Watchtower and the leadership has been wrong about predicting the end of the world so many times, I think I have an episode in this.
00:53:06:14 - 00:53:27:21
I’ll link to it below for people to watch. But they used to. They had a magazine published back in the 60s and 70s, and it was talk and it would made references to how saying like, this generation is the one that’s going to see like the end of the world and then like, you know, that things are going to pass away in this generation.
00:53:27:21 - 00:53:45:08
They had it in the banner. Yeah. And then like in the 2000, they removed it because they realized it was like because it was like 1914, 1975. And they would keep and eventually it’s like, dude, they keep getting it wrong. And they say, well, you know, the Watchtower is not. And they admit it’s not infallible. It errors, but it points us.
00:53:45:08 - 00:54:01:15
I’m like, why are you trusting then? Why are you trusting it? Yeah. New light, new life, new life. What they like to see. We got new light. We got new light. You know, I need to remember that next time I screw with my wife. Why didn’t you take out the trash? I’m like, I got new life. I got new life.
00:54:01:18 - 00:54:18:17
Oh, I won’t be mad at you then. Yeah, right. That’ll work. That’s great. All right, so I’m excited to see, you know, just just more of that what you’re going to be bringing in from everything. And then. Yeah, maybe we could. Whoever go out in the same city, we could do a tag team, maybe I will. I would love that.
00:54:18:17 - 00:54:38:18
I’d be honored I so you’re you’re saying how you do like pro you were doing pro-life. Yeah. So I would go to college campuses. So how I got started, like how you just you were doing the chats, then you would go to jobs, witnesses on the college campus. I would go to college campuses. It’s like 2000 basically from like, oh, six to like 20 tens.
00:54:38:19 - 00:54:54:02
When I was doing this, we’d set up pro-life exhibits and then we would talk to people. It was funny as we talk about abortion, but we would also be like, you know, well, you’re Christian. Why are you Christian? I’m like, I’m glad you asked. And then we were we were off to the. So I do miss that from the older days.
00:54:54:02 - 00:55:09:03
So I’d love to do some more of that. So I plan to do a like college tour next year. All right. And obviously we’re going to hit the schools in Dallas and stuff. I would love for you to come. I’ll let you know way ahead of time. So you know, let me know. I’ll clear the calendar. Yes, sir.
00:55:09:07 - 00:55:29:00
Do tag team of people. We’ll talk to atheist talk jobs, witnesses, Mormons. Yes, we’ll get it done. It’s gonna be fun for sure. Alrighty, sir, I love it. Where can people go to check out more of your work? Yeah, you can find me on God logic, apologetics on YouTube, Instagram and TikTok both. God logic. Just put it in there and yeah.
00:55:29:02 - 00:55:38:18
Subscribe. Hit that like button. All right. Thank you guys so much for your check out Avery’s work. Check out his work at God Logic. Thank you guys so much for watching and I hope you have a very blessed day.