Audio only:
In this episode Trent shares an excerpt from his recent chat with Pastor Eric Huffman @MaybeGodPodcast where they discuss the doctrine of purgatory.
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Transcript:
Trent:
Hey guys, in today’s episode, I’d like to share with you part of my discussion with Pastor Eric Huffman where we discuss the doctrine of purgatory. If you’d like to hear the entire discussion, be sure to click on the link below. And now here’s our chat about purgatory.
Eric:
I can’t end this interview without hearing you talk about purgatory. That’s another thing in the comment section here on Maybe God that’s come up a lot as we’ve had. Oh, maybe we
Trent:
Should just let this go on for hours and hours then. Yeah. Purgatorial.
Eric:
Yes. It’ll feel like purgatory. Yes. That is a very common dispute and point of contention. What in the purest sense is the Catholic understanding of purgatory and how do Protestants misunderstand it?
Trent:
Yeah. So if you look in the catechism of the Catholic church, it’s around paragraphs 10:30 to 10:35. It discusses the last things. It talks about hell and it talks about purgatory. So purgatory is not a second chance of salvation. It is not a place you go where you really hope you might get into heaven, but you’re not sure. Purgatory, we would say, is the final sanctification of the elect. So we believe, as all Christians do, there are the elect. Now we disagree about how you become a member of the elect, who chooses that, what role do I play to say yes to God’s offer of salvation? But there are people who believe in Jesus who will go to heaven. We can call them the elect, the chosen that God chooses.
And when they receive grace from God, the justification of God, they are immediately transformed from being a child of Adam to being a child of God. And the first moment that happens is not through any work. It’s nothing you do to merit it. You just receive salvation. And in that moment, nothing would hinder you from entering into heaven. But we also know, as Paul says in Romans 13:11, salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. Philippians two, work out your salvation and fear and trembling. We know there is a journey and we grow in sanctification. And scripture also says, James three: two, we all stumble in many ways. We still sin in this life. We have attachments to sin in this life. Revelation 21:27 though says that nothing unclean will enter into heaven. So God will sanctify us in this life, but when we die, if we are still attached to sin, then we will be fully purified of that attachment, be fully sanctified after death.
And so what the catechism says is that the church gives the name of this process of purification, calls it purgatory. And so I would just say that if you believe. We agree we’re sanctified before death. And we would just say that if you’re not fully sanctified in this life, which is a journey, you’ll be fully sanctified after death
To enter into heaven.
Eric:
And so that’s
Trent:
A difference.
Eric:
It does make some sense to the Protestant mind, I would say, because sin cannot be allowed or tolerated in heaven. The imperfection of sin must be dealt with before we enter into heaven. And so the idea of full sanctification before entering heaven the gates, it makes some sense. And we have the idea in scripture that Christians who are redeemed already will stand trial, will face judgment, not condemnation, but will all stand before Jesus and have to give an account.
Trent:
For what they did in the body.
Eric:
Yeah, exactly. And as a corollary, I’ve also talked to a lot of people that have had near death experiences and they talk about even the positive ones. Every one of them almost talk about a life review with Jesus where they basically sit down and watch a movie of their whole life and have to give an account. And it’s not always pleasant. And so there’s this idea of coming to reckoning with who we’ve been and what we’ve done before entering the fullness of heaven. And I think Protestants can at least in some sense get our minds around that.
Trent:
Absolutely. I
Eric:
Do think though there’s been over the years just a lot of misunderstanding. I think a lot of Protestants conflate purgatory with what used to be called limbo, which was, as I understand it, never an official church teaching, but it was widely talked about.
Trent:
Let me hash through a few of those things, you correct. So limbo is an answer to the question, what happens to children who die without baptism? Very common, of course, throughout human history. Half of all children did not live past the age of five.
Eric:
Sure.
Trent:
Many died shortly after birth or before birth. So what happens to them? Because Catholics, along with many Protestants, believe that baptism is what saves us. Not all Protestants believe that. But Protestants also have to answer this question of, well, what happens if you die and you didn’t believe in Jesus? Your baby. If salvation is through faith in Christ, what
Eric:
Happens?
Trent:
Because we know what we need to go to heaven. If you don’t have that, how do you go to heaven? So medieval theologians posited that there’s only heaven and hell, but there could be on the outer part of hell, a place that is not heaven, but there’s no suffering. There’s just perfect natural happiness. And this was called the limbus, the edge of hell, hence the word limbo. And so unbaptized children would have perfect natural happiness, but not behold the face of God. And so that was their answer to it. But the church holds a while. It was a common teaching, it was never infallibly defined. And now the church leans more towards having a hope, but not 100% guarantee, but a hopeful confidence in our Lord
Eric:
Who
Trent:
Said, let the children come to me, that children through no fault of their own will also behold the face of God. So that’s limbo. Purgatory, very different. The church does not have a teaching about the nature of purgatory, about its duration. All we know is that this is this final process of sanctification. But theologians have posited. And I mean, it’s not just like getting cleaned up. There’s a punitive aspect to it because we’re sanctified from our sins. Hebrews 12 makes it clear that God disciplines those he loves to produce fruits of righteousness. So we would say if Hebrews 12 says that God can discipline me in this life to produce righteousness, and that’s very clear in Hebrews 12. He could do that if I still need that discipline if I died, but I was still attached to sin.
Eric:
So
Trent:
It’s discipline for the purpose of sanctifying us. And I would say though, I’m partial to many theologians have posited that what makes purgatory unpleasant is that the person knows they are saved and they are going to heaven, but they’re not able to behold the face of God yet.
Eric:
I
Trent:
Think purgatory is going to be like this. And it will be agonizing, but in a different way. I remember when I was seven years old, my dad took our family to Disneyland. And this was back when you could drive in the parking lot and the parking lot was right at the front gate. You could just drive, get into a parking space and walk to the ticket aisle, not take a tram or all this other
Eric:
Stuff,
Trent:
But it was old school. But I was bad with my siblings. And he said, “That’s it. You got to wait here for 10 minutes before you get to go in.” And I’m looking and I see the Matterhorn and I see Space Mountain and I see the train going by at the front. And I’m seven years old and I am just dying inside. I am dying inside, but I needed that to reset myself.
Eric:
Interesting. And
Trent:
So I think, because a lot of people think, oh, Catholics believe in some kind of arbitrary torture chamber. But it seems that the saints will be like, “No, for your full…” Imagine that the agony will just be. God is so, not just God, but the beatific vision, the fullness of who God is that even Moses couldn’t see. Almost there. But I have to wait until I am fully sanctified so that I can receive it.
And actually many of the theologians said that there is no teaching that the joy of purgatory doesn’t outweigh the suffering. You could still just be really. I was still jazzed to be at Disneyland. I was still like, “I was going to get there already.” But it’s all in seeing that we understand as Catholics, when we talk justification sanctification, we agree justification is by faith, but not by just a faith that’s an ascent or even a trust. We would agree with Paul and Galatians five: six. What matters is not circumcision or uncircumcision, but faith working through love. And so we trust in God, receive his salvation. We just don’t permanently walk away from it. And in this life, we always move towards God. And if we are attached to sin in a way, we will either be unattached in this life or God will perfectly heal us even after death before we enter into the eternal reward.
Eric:
Got it.
Trent:
Yep.
Eric:
The Disneyland thing’s helpful in a way to help at least conceive of it. Yeah.
Trent:
That it’s not a cruel arbitrary thing. It’s the most glim analogy you could think. And especially when you try to think of the world, I think what’s hard for you and I as adults to see and think about heaven is that when we were children, the world was so much bigger and magical than it is now.
I remember when I went back to my old childhood home and I went to this park I played at, and I thought there was a hill and a forest that I would go and run around in behind it. And then I go back and get there and it’s like five trees. But when you’re five years old, it’s this magical huge thing. And I think that’s as hard as we get older for our faith. What does Jesus say? You cannot come to me unless you have the faith of a child. It’s because when a child sees, if this world is big and magical, how much more so is God to a child?
Eric:
Yeah, I’m
Trent:
Sure. But for you and I, we can fall into the habit that God is basically a cosmic version of our boss at work. And it’s not always supposed to be. First Peter five says, “Cast all your anxieties on him for he cares
Eric:
For
Trent:
You.”
Eric:
Yeah. And it’s other passages I would look to. See, I am not convinced about purgatory, just to be real. I am curious about the Catholic understanding of it. But I would say there’s just not enough evidence there to support it as a theory to be taught in the church. But I do believe we should take sanctification seriously. I love the Disney Park, but I think the. Let me just finish this. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. I
Trent:
Don’t mean to interrupt. I
Eric:
Apologize. The idea of the Disney Park is an interesting one. But when I read the Bible, it’s just absent with the body for those in faith. Absent with the body present with the Lord. A man dies once to be judged and that’s it. There’s no in between space that is defined in scripture that I can tell. I understand the scriptural passages that are pointed to in support of purgatory. They’re just not clear enough for me to get on board with it. Although I will say purgatory is the least of my concerns where Catholic Protestant divisions are concerned.
Trent:
I’d like to reply to a few of those things because that passage in two Corinthians, it does not say to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. It’s better to be. Paul says, “I would rather to be absent from the body. I would rather be with the Lord.” But even there, Paul says that when you’re absent from the body, it doesn’t mean you’re immediately at bliss with the Lord because in that same passage, Paul talks about appearing before the judgment seat of Christ.
Eric:
Sure. If we’re talking about appearing before the judgment seat of Christ, I think we’re all on the same page. But my sense is historically purgatory has been fleshed out in other ways.
Trent:
And what I would say is though that there is, you’re correct, there is one judgment, heaven or hell. So the question is, you’ll be judged, particular judgment, heaven or hell, after you die.
Eric:
But
Trent:
The question is, will you go immediately there? And in the early church, the people who went immediately were the martyrs. That’s why they were celebrated so much is because they received the crown immediately. Or will you be sanctified? But I’m very convinced, like in one Corinthians 3:15, Paul talks about people who will be saved, but as through fire. He says they will suffer loss, but as through fire. And it’s interesting to hear, he says they’ll be saved, but he also says that they will suffer a loss of some kind. And now some Protestants have said to me, “Well, Paul is just saying because they were bad servants in one Corinthians three, they’ll have a loss of rewards. They won’t get the rewards they would’ve had in heaven.” Which to me, I would say that fits within my definition of purgatory, which is discipline after death to fully sanctify.
If anything, that’s a harsher punishment than my Disneyland analogy. At least my Disney analogy is temporary. To permanently eternally lose a reward I could have had in heaven, that’d just be crushing.
Eric:
Is it true that there was a time in Catholic history where purgatory and loved ones in purgatory could be bought out or somehow bargained for with indulgences or something?
Trent:
Yes. So because the church has authority over believers and guides all people to salvation, and we can pray for one another, that we can pray. If I see that someone is going through a trial in this life, I pray, Lord, please help him with that trial, whatever he needs to be sanctified or he’s attached to evil. Lord, please help John with this trial or with his sanctification that he’s going through right now. We can pray for loved ones who are being sanctified in this life. We can pray for loved ones in the next life. And so an indulgence would be the church having the authority to pray for those in the next life that this temporary punishment, this temporary discipline leading to sanctification would be remitted. That we can ask God in his mercy, just please sanctify this person. I want to offer up prayers for them or offer up other things for them like giving alms to offer this
Eric:
Up. Financial gifts.
Trent:
Yes. Now Jesus says in scripture, he says, when you give alms, all things are clean to you. So giving money to the poor is a very good thing. The problem was that there was an abuse that occurred where instead of being a spiritual good to offer up a sacrifice on behalf of others, people treated it transactionally. One Timothy 6:10, the love of money is the root of all evil. They just bought this without saying prayers or being heartfelt, thinking that this is a shortcut basically. But an indulgence cannot forgive any sin. If you’re going to hell, you’re going to hell. A million indulgences won’t help.
Eric:
It’s
Trent:
Just a request to God for the temporary discipline for sins in this life among the saved to be remitted, to be sanctified without it, because God
Eric:
Could
Trent:
Do that. So then at the Council of Trent, after the Protestant Reformation, when many reforms were instituted for. Because the reformers are right. There were things that were going bad that had to be fixed, that alms gave money. There’s your quote,
Eric:
By the way. The reformers were right. Trent
Trent:
Weren’t. They were about some things. They weren’t. That’s why the Council of Trent had its own Catholic. There was a period called the Catholic Reformation. No, you can’t have money with indulgences anymore. These are just prayers for the benefit of those to be sanctified in the next life and many other things. So for example, the Council of Trent established a seminary system. Prior to that, to become a priest, you just kind of were. A lot of times you were the son, the second or third son who had nothing going for him, who was not going to inherit the Lord’s estate. And you got sent off to the church or a monastery and you go work under that priest and you learn from him. And maybe that guy couldn’t read and you couldn’t read. And so there was no formal training system for priests. And here’s where it got really bad.
150 years, 150, 180 years before the reformation, you have the Black death, you have the bubonic plague. A third of Europe is wiped out. Crazy changes are happening now in society, as you can imagine.
Eric:
Think
Trent:
What COVID did to us.
Eric:
Yeah, and it was nothing compared to that.
Trent:
A third
Of the population is wiped out. So what ends up happening, and one of the groups that’s wiped out the most are the good priests. Because the good priests will go to the plague victims and give them. James 5:16 talks about the anointing of oil. Anoint him with oil and his sins will be forgiven in James five. So they would go and anoint people with oil and last rites at the moment of death. Well, who’s going to get the plague now? So then all of the good priests start dropping like flies and who’s left? It’s the priests that we’re hiding in the monasteries. So then this starts to bear fruit. 150, what do you got now? Priests with concubines, illiterate. No wonder the reformers had to step in there as abuses. But we are saying that the church, we want reform, not revolt. We want the body to be healed, not a part of it to be amputated.
So in seeing that there, the church, there’s so many superstitions that had to be rooted out, priestly formation. There was a rule that said if you were born out of wedlock, you could not become a priest. That’s been suspended.
Eric:
But
Trent:
They had to do that because it was such a temptation. If a child was born out of wedlock, oh, he’s never going to amount to anything. Just send him to be a priest
Eric:
Because
Trent:
He had no other options.
Eric:
But
Trent:
That’s not a great reason to become a shepherd of a flock. As a pastor, you know this, you should never become a pastor because I had no other options. That’s a recipe for disaster. Thank you guys so much for watching. Once again, click the link in the description below to hear our full exchange and don’t forget to support us at trenthornpodcast.com. Thank you guys for listening and I hope you have a very blessed day.