In this episode, Trent addresses the controversy surrounding Bishop Thomas Tobin’s urging Catholics not to attend LGBTQ pride events and considers the question of whether these events are harmful to children.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Council of Trent podcast, a production of Catholic answers.
Trent Horn: You’ve probably seen the rainbow a lot more frequently on social media, around town, hanging up on billboards, posters, flags. It’s not a celebration of the Covenant, God’s covenant with Noah. No, for many people it is pride month, a celebration of LGBTQ identity behavior and activism, so I thought it’d be a good idea here on the Council of Trent podcast to talk about that and some recent interactions that Catholics have had in the culture when it comes to the issue of pride month. But before we get into that, I want to give a big thanks and shout out to our supporters at trenthornpodcast.com. You are the ones who make the podcast possible and will make it possible for me to bring on future guests. I’ve already sent out invitations to people who support legal abortion, who support homosexuality. I just sent an invitation today to an academic who thinks that Catholics should drop the Crusader mascot because it reeks of antisemitism and Islamophobia.
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Trent Horn: Now back to pride month, I saw that Bishop Tobin of Rhode Island put out this tweet that to me seems pretty mundane. “A reminder that Catholics should not support or attend LGBTQ pride month events held in June. They promote a culture and encourage activities that are contrary to Catholic faith and morals. They are especially harmful for children.” Well that has sent some people up in arms. And so I have here a clip from ABC’s The View where it’s at the opening, let’s see this was uploaded on June 3rd and I’m sorry the article here I got it from is June 3rd, but it’s The View Celebrates Pride. It’s I think their first pride month episode. So let’s play it and then I’ll offer some commentary because they get to Bishop Tobin after a minute. But I want to comment on the first things that Whoopi Goldberg says.
Whoopi Goldberg: Hey, welcome back. So, Pride Month kicked off on Saturday and I’m proud to be part of the first World Pride Day ceremony held in America later this month on June 26th and I want to say there have been some really ugly incidents lately, all over the place. But people have burned flags outside of gay bars and uptown in Harlem and people destroyed a poster. You know, here’s the deal. And we had a Bishop say something that seems so against what Jesus stood for that it was shocking. But this-
Trent Horn: So remember that was the statement I just read to you where Bishop Tobin just said, don’t attend pride month events. They promote culture and activities contrary to the Catholic faith, and that’s apparently shocking to Whoopi Goldberg. I remember back in the 90s when it came to issues related to “LGBT” issues that the buzz word was tolerance. You should tolerate those that you disagree with. That it was about tolerance, that if you don’t want to do this stuff, hey, that’s fine, but don’t keep us from doing what we want to do. And even longer before that, when you had the Stonewall riots in the 1960s and the Gay Liberation Movement, the message was, you know, we’re here, we’re queer, we’re not going anywhere and let us live our lives the way we want. And the corresponding message back to people identifying as heterosexual was, you know, don’t impose your morality on us. Don’t stop us from loving and living the way that we want to.
Trent Horn: Well here, Bishop Tobin is not, he’s just saying they’re going to do their thing. Catholics don’t support or attend these kinds of activities because it promotes a message that’s contrary to the Catholic faith. He’s not saying, hey, you need the city needs to shut down these events. I, you know, I don’t know any major Catholic prelate who is arguing for anything like that recently. But it’s moving from tolerance to celebrate diversity. That if you don’t actively and enthusiastically support our message, then you become a social pariah. Now, when Goldberg mentions, of course, the property that has been destroyed, I agree. I don’t think it’s productive to go around destroying other people’s property in order to make a point.
Trent Horn: I think it’s perfectly fine that that church in Chicago, not too long ago actually, there was a rainbow flag with a cross emblazoned on it used for liturgy or worship that was ceremonially burned because it was the Church’s flag and it promoted a message completely contrary to what the church teaches. But I would agree it’s not productive to go around and destroy other people’s property. So let’s, let’s continue with this part of The View.
Whoopi Goldberg: This is what I’m going to tell all of our friends. God loves you. You can’t, nobody can tell you God doesn’t. You’re the only person who knows your relationship with God. So you stand proudly. We don’t want you to be afraid that people aren’t going to get it. It doesn’t matter whether they get it. This is about who you are. Be proud of who you are.
Trent Horn: Well, God loves me. God loves you. God loves everyone, but God doesn’t love everything that we do. And certainly one thing he does not love is when we indulge in pride, when we love ourselves, when we think that we are so good and so great that the reason God loves us is not because God is super abundant love, infinite love and mercy, because God is perfect goodness itself. Rather in a modern idea, we get this distorted sense that God loves me because I’m so great and I’m so wonderful and I’m so special and I got that participation trophy at the third grade field day events and you know, I’m so special and I am so great. You know, they call my generation, the millennials, the snowflake generation for a reason. That we are thin and wispy like snowflakes. You’re easily offended. And we were all taught from being very little we’re all unique and precious. Just as no two snowflakes are alike. So God should love me because I’m so special and so great.
Trent Horn: Well pride is the instant way to kill our relationship with God. It’s something we all suffer with, something I have to suffer with. I endure and struggle with a lot because it’s easy. You know, we should love our neighbors, we love ourselves, but we don’t want to unduly love ourselves because that’s the sin of pride. Proverbs 8:12-13 says this, “I wisdom, dwell in prudence and I find knowledge and discretion. The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil, pride and arrogance. And the way of evil and perverted speech I hate.” So the thing that we should be proud of is that we are adopted through no merit of our own, we have become adopted sons and daughters of God, and we are part of God’s family and we humble ourselves under his majesty and his goodness and are thankful for his grace in our lives. And we desire to share that with other people so that they don’t have to be ensnared by their passions, by enslaved to sin in this life.
Trent Horn: So when Whoopi Goldberg says, nobody can tell you that God doesn’t love you. Yeah. I can’t tell you what your, whether you’re in God’s grace or not. I don’t have access to that. But what I can say is God doesn’t love us no matter what we do because God loves us so much, he’s willing to let us freely walk away from him for all eternity. He loves us so much. He’s not going to twist our arm and drag us into heaven kicking and screaming against our wills. So you know Whoopi Goldberg and others will say, you know, God loves you just the way that you are. I don’t necessarily love the way that I am.
Trent Horn: Think about all the times that we are disappointed in our own lives, disappointed in ourselves, that we failed to meet a standard of truly loving our neighbors and truly loving God. Does God love the way I am, we have all different kinds of internal desires that God does not want us to choose over them. Saint Thomas Aquinas defined sin in one way. He said, “Sin is when we love creature more than creator.” So what about people who have a desire to be drunk? They love alcohol. Or greed. They love money. You know, I love money. I love making a ton of money. God must love me even though I make a ton of money and I barely or don’t give any to the poor. God loves me for who I am. Right? Well, I think it’s so funny people like Whoopi Goldberg and other critics will say that God doesn’t love a greedy or hypocritical Christians. At the very least, he calls them to repentance. But what about everyone else?
Trent Horn: Our hearts, as Jeremiah 17:9 says, “Our hearts are a wicked thing. Who can know it?” They’re not a good barometer for how we stand before God. And so we have to let God tell us through his revelation, he’s given us a sacred scripture tradition and the church he established.
Whoopi Goldberg: And there’s a whole bunch of us standing with you.
Whoopi Goldberg: And you know what?
Trent Horn: Well, let me go ahead actually to one of Whoopi Goldberg’s cohosts who talks about Bishop Tobin right now.
Sunny Hostin: Because I was reading, you know, I was on Twitter this weekend and I read this tweet by Bishop Tobin who is a Catholic Bishop-
Trent Horn: And this is Sunny Hostin to fill you in.
Sunny Hostin: … comes out and he says that he wants to remind all Catholics not to support or engage in any Pride and participate in any Pride parades or anything supporting the LGBTQ community because it’s against Christian values and that it’s harmful to children. And I tweeted out that my Catholic children will be attending Pride events as this Catholic will. You know, my faith always taught me what would Jesus do? I know Jesus would be attending that Pride parade with pride. And I also know that God is love and Jesus is love and love is love. And for a Catholic-
Trent Horn: God is love. Jesus is love. Love is love. That’s not the gospel. That’s sentimentality. That’s saying that something is right or wrong based on my ability to stomach it. That’s what our culture has gotten to when it comes to morality. Right or wrong is ultimately determined by our ability to stomach certain things, that thankfully most people still cannot stomach things like murder or rape. But many people can stomach abortion. They can stomach sodomy They can stomach a lot of these things that there was a time, you know, the sin which dare not be named that you, you couldn’t and you just had an instinctive understanding things are wrong. But if you rely solely on your gut feelings in these matters, if your culture moves further and further away from the truth, it’s almost like you’re trying to calibrate your compass next to a magnet.
Trent Horn: It’s going to be completely off kilter. And so we live in a society where people, as the prophet Isaiah says, “they call good, evil and evil good.” And so I was reading another article from a lay theologian saying, you know, well, Jesus never condemned, said he didn’t say a word about LGBTQ people. Well, no, he did not, but Jesus never said anything about child sacrifice or incest, even though both of those things occurred in the ancient world. Instead, Jesus upheld the moral law of the Old Testament, God’s enduring moral law that applies to all people in all times and all places. How I know that Jesus would not be at a Pride event is that something that our culture considers very common and mundane remarriage after divorce. They would say, most people in our culture would say it’s not a sin to get divorced and remarried just because you fallen in love with somebody else.
Trent Horn: That’s not what Jesus taught. If you go to Mark chapter 10 Jesus makes it very clear how we can know our sexuality and what our sexual ethics are grounded in. He says, “God made them male and female. For this reason, a man,” going back to, he quotes Genesis 2. “This reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and the two shall become one. They are no longer two but one. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.” Mark 10:10 Mark says, “And in the house, the disciples asked him again about this matter, and he said to them,” now, this is of course an answer to the Pharisees on the question of divorce. And Jesus, and people will often say, you Catholics are being modern day Pharisees. You’re legalistic and you’re rigid.
Trent Horn: Guess what? Jesus was more rigid than the Pharisees when it came to divorce. The Pharisees allowed divorce in rare circumstances, but Jesus said, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her, and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.” Case closed. Jesus doesn’t ask, well, is it a consensual relationship? What are the fruits in this relationship? What are the fruits that we see coming from this new marriage? No, Jesus said very clear, no. Marriage is rooted in the one flesh union God made between men and women, and that is the proper outlet for our sexuality. Anything beyond that becomes illicit and becomes a sin against God and sin against ourselves. Well, here, let me, I’ll play a little bit more of this to get to the next point about children.
Sunny Hostin: … Catholic bishop to come out and say something like that. Given the history of pedophilia in the Catholic church, given what the Catholic church has hidden about the abuse of children, some would say that being at a Pride parade would be much safer for a child than it has been to be in a Catholic church for many years.
Trent Horn: You know, what’s funny, if people, I wonder if she’d be willing to say that same thing about the host of children who’ve been abused in ultra orthodox Jewish schools or even just about in secular organizations, you know, among Scouts, sports leagues, public schools. You’re always hearing stories about public school teachers molesting children. And yet it’s an easy target for people. And I will admit that the way that the tweet is, is phrased, it kind of sets yourself up for that. But I mean it doesn’t work, of course for us say this is bigotry, it’s anti-catholic bashing because number one, what has happened within the Catholic church is a horrible thing. Even if it is at a lower rate of other secular organizations, it’s still a terrible thing. And I just don’t want to argue with people about the sex abuse scandal in the Catholic church.
Trent Horn: I want things to get better. I don’t want kids to be abused anywhere. I don’t care if it’s in a Catholic church, I don’t care if it’s in a temple, a mosque, I don’t care if it’s a Boy Scout league, if it’s in the locker room at Penn State, wherever the hell it is. I don’t want kids to be abused anywhere. And you know where I don’t want kids to be abused? At gay bars when they’re dressed up as drag queens. I don’t want them to be abused there either. So for me, if I was to take this conversation in a direction about whether LGBT events are harmful for children, I’m not going to say if you take your kids here, gay people are going to molest them. I’m not going to, that’s not a discussion that I want to have. Rather I would say are these ideas and this is the discussion you should have with people, are these ideas and these values healthy and good for children? And I would say absolutely not.
Trent Horn: One from the sexual immorality that’s being proposed to have a kind of cavalier mentality when it comes to sexuality to tell children that when it comes to the expression of your sexuality, all that matters is that you love this other person. Is that a mentality we want high school students to have minors, children who are just discovering their sexuality in puberty, who could be taken advantage of by other people, either their own age or even adults that come upon them. And the adults who take advantage of them, I’m talking about the drag queens, I would say that the mentality at many of these Pride events lends itself towards the abuse and mistreatment of children by over sexualizing them are saying sexuality is not the big deal. This whole things are a celebration of sexuality. So let children get in on the act.
Trent Horn: I’ll give you a few examples of young children who were encouraged to be drag queens or usually these are little boys who dress up as flamboyant women for the entertainment of others and it just makes me so sad and gives me the heebie jeebies. Let me provide you with a few examples here. Here’s one that originally I read about it on the Daily Wire and when you read about these incidents involving the abuse of children, as you know, dressed up as drag queens or anything that is sensational that falls in the other camp or the, you know, where there are people who disagree with the Catholic church and yet they’re engaging in activities that are beyond the pale or beyond the norm. When you share that with other people, I would recommend trying to find news sources that are trustworthy on the other side. So I originally found this story on Daily Wire, which is a conservative website.
Trent Horn: I love Daily Wire. They’ve got a lot of great stories to find there. But if I were to share that with someone, they would say, oh, it’s the Daily Wire. That’s conservative. It’s propaganda. I don’t believe it. So I just did a little bit of sleuthing. It wasn’t hard to find that this same story is on GayStarnews.com so definitely not a conservative website by any means, shape or form. And it says drag race winner slammed for posing naked next to 10 year old child. Photographer issues statement after admitting several people found image distasteful. So this is something that took place more at the beginning of 2019 but what’s the word I’m looking for here? It’s, it reveals the kind of mentality within the subculture.
Trent Horn: Conservatives are up in arms over a picture of a naked drag race winner and a 10 year old child. Season seven star Violet Chachki was photographed with several people at the last drag con. She, it’s really he, I think his birth name is Jason. It’s a man probably, who identifies as a woman who dresses up as a woman, but I’m pretty sure, bet you dollars doughnuts this is a man. “She” was only wearing makeup, a wig, heels and a tuck. One right wing news site called the image troubling and over sexualized. So it’s an image. This is cool. I mean, this is clearly a man. He’s naked, he’s wearing a wig and he’s tucked in his thighs together and he’s tucked in his penis between his thighs standing with a child drag queen who is 10 years old. The child’s name is Lactacia. The young drag queen is Nemis Quinn Melancon-Golden who’s performed on the stage as Queen Lactacia. Many online began to describe Violet as a pedophile. Many people though online who support this community have fired back saying, “Do you effing H’s know what a pedophile is like. Violet Chachki is not a effing pedophile. F woke stand, Twitter can F off.”
Trent Horn: She took a picture with a child. That’s all. Except she’s not wearing any clothes, Einstein,. And she, this is a man who’s tucked his penis in Buffalo Bill style, Silence of the Lambs with a 10 year old child. And the other person said, this photo isn’t harming anyone at all. Now photos like these are what get you 10 to 20 years in Sing Sing. And if this were just a grown man with a child in the basement of his house taking a “fun” picture like this, the FBI would be hauling this guy. I will say to you, and I was researching these stories, having to Google search words like 10 year old drag queen or 10 year old drag queen with naked man. As soon as I hit search, I was just bracing myself for the FBI to kick down my door with the black helicopters dragging me out of the building.
Trent Horn: That it’s hard enough you know … That’s why in Ephesians 5:11 Ephesians chapter 5, Saint Paul says to not even mention the the deeds that are done by others in darkness. He goes on to say, but rather expose them. That it’s like trying to deal with radioactive waste. You know, you can’t just leave it out there. Someone will get hurt, but you have to protect yourself when you’re dealing with it. Photographer Jonathan Turtin has also issued a statement on the social media platform. He writes, “So Instagram took down my photo of the drag kid I interviewed for Huck magazine. I’m posting another one because on reflection I realized, that a particular photo I posted with the older drag queen was distasteful for many. I 100% stand by the article. I’d urge anyone to read the article before passing judgment. I’m not after sympathy, further controversy or applause. I just wish people were a bit more understanding of each other’s differences.”
Trent Horn: So he doesn’t even apologize, does not even apologize for the photo and taking a picture of a minor with a naked man and acting like everything’s just fine because the idea here, that sexuality is just something fun that you explore. And that’s the kind of attitude that we find a lot of people who celebrate “Pride identity and mentality.” I’ll give you another example. This is one you probably heard of more also in January. It’s the case of Desmond Napoles AKA Desmond is amazing. He was shown on Good Morning America as the 11 year old drag kid, and however this a 11 year old has gone to perform at gay bars where people throw dollar bills at him while he is dancing. That’s just sick. That’s just sick. And yet if someone identifies as LGBTQ, they get a free pass because people are terrified of seeming to be homophobic in this regard.
Trent Horn: So there’s an article on Townhall a few months ago from Karen Kataline and I think it’s a great article. She wrote Why I Reported the Case of an 11 year old Drag Queen to Child Protective Services. Hundreds of people called New York CPS to talk about, hey, these parents let their 11 year old dance at a gay bar sexually while people throw dollar bills at him. So Karen Kataline wrote this article. She writes, Desmond’s parents, Andrew and Wendy Napoles were present in the audience. They’ve also allowed their son to dance for money and simulate stripping and an adult gay bar in Brooklyn called the $3 bill. What causes an entire audience and two hosts to take leave of their senses and cheer the sexualization of a child. If Desmond had been a girl simulating a strip tease would the audience have applauded so approvingly? There was a time not long ago when they might have. During the height of Toddlers and Tiaras and the JonBenet Ramsey story, I wrote a book about my own experience in child beauty pageants and growing up as a princess by proxy, a term coined by Dr Martina Cartwright in the foreword to the book.
Trent Horn: I was put on the stage at the age of three but I didn’t understand my true feelings about that or how similar experiences affected my development until I was well into my 30s. By then I had clinical experience as well, so I used my story of a stage mother on steroids live through me as a case study to offer my professional analysis of how the early sexualization of children damages their development.
Trent Horn: So going and doing some more research on this. Let’s see here. The article seems to have been lost here for a second. Here it comes out. This is from Out magazine. It’s a review of the $3 bill. That comes from an expression, a quote, “He is as queer as a $3 bill.” Queer meaning strange. Queer is also an adjective that some people within the LGBTQ community identify for themselves. Usually queer oftentimes represents having a sexuality or a gender identity that is far from the norm. Not wanting to be within the “gender binary.” So dressing and acting in very provocative ways and the drag race and drag queens, cross dressing can be an example of that.
Trent Horn: So I have here actually in front of me, the original e-vite. This event took place December 1st, 2018. $3 bill presents Club Whoa featuring Desmond is Amazing live. So what is this place where these parents went and had their 11 year old child go and dance? Well, an article, it’s also called Sutherland. This is an article and it’s a gay bar in Brooklyn, in Out magazine. So this is a gay magazine. I’m, you know, trying to find out what this place is like from those who have been there who are objectively reporting on it.
Trent Horn: When you walk into Sutherland, one of Brooklyn’s most buzzworthy queer clubs, you’re walking in without your phone. But unlike nights when you may have left it in an Uber after too much pregaming, here, you know exactly where it is. Stowed away at coat check or stuffed in your pocket in a sealed pouch if you’re itching to cheat and see who’s zero feet away there’s onsite technology that keeps you off of Grindr. Grindr is the gay equivalent of Tinder. It’s a hookup app. It’s by Yonder, the same tech outfit that comedians like Dave Chappelle used to prevent audiences from recording their acts. So you go to this club, your phone is in a magnetic pouch and you can’t retrieve it inside. It’s, they say number one, it’s to keep people from just being on their phones all night so they can have these real life interactions with others, but as you read on in the article, it seems clear the other reason of not letting people have their phones is kind of an anything goes mentality erupts and nobody’s going to be able to record it.
Trent Horn: Flirting happens in real life with those glances across the crowd and in the flesh charm we’ve come to undervalue. There’s even a forced cinematic romanticism to sharing your number. If you want to do it, odds are you’ll be scrawling your digits on a vodka blotted bar napkin and with the unsurprising strictly enforced, no photos policy, your only hope for documenting the night is squeezing into a lone dusty photo booth. Think of Sutherland as a combo of traveling to a weekly Berlin haunt where phone check is routine, traveling back in time. What it’s not per se, what it’s not per se is a sex party. But what happens at Sutherland stays there. So if you’re looking to land some action in a corner, no one’s likely to stop you and better still, no one will post it to Instagram.
Trent Horn: And I have seen the video to confirm this 11 year old dancing here in this dark, you know, kind of grody gay bar, at least the corner of it, dancing with a crop top and hot pants in front of a bunch of people and other reports on the Yelp reviews. I’m sure Yelp has purged almost all the negative reviews from $3 Bill and I found only one that remained where somebody said, most of the negative reviews say that the the drinks are overpriced and the bartenders are rude, which you know, that’s most dive bars. But this one said that that a lot of people were leaving during the performance like this when there was a child dancing because they were disgusted by this.
Trent Horn: So when you see this, if you see this on Good Morning America, people who try to talk about minors, children in drag, drag races and using children to promote LGBT propaganda, just ask, would we do this with a heterosexual minor? Would we do this with just a young boy or girl to promote just hooking up among self-identified straight people to promote polyamory, to promote adultery or free love? Why can’t we just let children be children? And if you’re concerned, of course about helping children to be children, then I would recommend picking up a copy of Made This Way, the book I wrote with Layla Miller, which includes chapters on how to explain transgender identity and homosexuality to children.
Trent Horn: So I want to leave you with two scripture verses to talk about how should Christians respond when we see gross immorality in our day, whether it’s sexual immorality or not sexual morality, whatever it may be. Well when it comes to sexual immorality, this idea that Christians would celebrate Pride events much less ignore them, is completely foreign to scripture. In fact, what I said about Jesus said, well, Jesus never said anything about incest. That was a problem in the ancient world. It’s still a problem in some parts of the country today and you know, some parts of the world. In 1 Corinthians chapter 5, Saint Paul indicts the Corinthians, he rakes them over the coals because they had a live and live mentality with incest in their community.
Trent Horn: 1 Corinthians 5 he says, “It is actually reported that there is immorality among you and of a kind that is not found even among pagans, for a man his living with his father’s wife and you are arrogant. Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.” That 1 Corinthians 5 actually records the very first instance of excommunication in the early church. Someone was taken out of communion with the church because they were such a bad influence on everyone. They’re literally handed over to Satan for the hopes that they would be saved to realize the serious error of what they had done. So they would come back to the Christian faithful in repentance and seeking reconciliation with God and with the church.
Trent Horn: And so here Paul’s not saying, oh well, was it a consensual relationship? Is it exploitative in any way? He’s not asking about any of that. It’s just clear that this is at complete variance with the holiness code and the laws of sexuality God had already made very clear in the Old Testament for people to live by.
Trent Horn: The other verse that I want to leave you with is here in Galatians. So people say, oh, you know, we should celebrate this. We should be proud. You shouldn’t judge other people. That’s not the advice that God’s word gives us. In Galatians 6 verses 1 through 3 and 7 through 9, this is what Paul says, “Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Look to yourself lest you too be tempted, bear one another’s burdens. And so fulfill the law of Christ for if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.” Thinking you’re something when you’re nothing is the essence of pride by the way.
Trent Horn: “Do not be deceived. God is not mocked. For whatever a man sows that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the spirit will from the spirit reap eternal life.” And here’s Galatians 6:9. Great way to close it. “Let us not grow weary in well doing for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.” So don’t lose heart. The victory is ours. God has won the victory. God is in control. We should pray for people who are struggling with sexual sin, temptation, whoever they are. For children who are victims with abuse everywhere. Pray for the love of God and the justice of God to be done for them and in our own lives as well. So do not lose heart. Thank you all for being with me today and I hope that you all have a very blessed day.
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