Audio only:
In this Episode Trent responds to the viral clip of Ben Shapiro claiming that if he converted to Christianity, he would choose to be Protestant because Catholicism “has too many rituals.”
Do Jesus’ Last Words Refute Catholicism?
Transcription
Trent:
Recently Michael Knowles interviewed Ben Shapiro and asked him if he ever became Christian, would he be Protestant or Catholic? A lot of people shared one clip online of Shapiro saying he’d become Protestant because he wanted be part of a faith that wasn’t so full of rituals. But this single clip took Shapiro out of context as if he were completely dunking on Catholicism. He wasn’t. So in today’s episode, I want to set the record straight and engage the criticism that Catholicism has too many rituals. Let’s look at the relevant clips.
CLIP:
In order for me to become a Christian, the central pitch of Christianity to me would be getting rid of all of the rituals, right? I mean that’s like the central pitch, right? You’re
Saying you’d want to mix it up.
You got to mix it. Yeah. Man, I do more ritual than you, right? I’m like as Jewish as it’s possible to be
Almost.
And what that means is that if I’ve said this before, Catholicism is more similar to Judaism and Protestantism by far. There’s no question because Catholicism, as I’ve said to Bishop Baron, backfilled all of the
Ritual
By basically saying Faith will save you, not works. But also it turns out that if you think that that is a practical way of governing, it turns out that you need hierarchy in actual
Works. Let’s give some credence to James here.
Trent:
One Protestant on X summarized the conversation this way here. Ben Shapiro admits to Michael Knowles that if he were to convert to Christianity, he would go Protestant because Catholicism is more or less the same endless rituals done as a way to earn heaven, and he is completely right here. The entire foundation on which Christianity is grounded on is that Jesus Christ paid it all. He became our final and all sufficient sacrifice. There is no more need for rituals, but that wasn’t Shapiro’s position. This was more of a joking answer from him. And Shapiro even admitted later in their conversation that if he converted because he was convinced Christianity was true, then he become Catholic. Whereas he’d only become Protestant if he was just sick of Judaism.
CLIP:
If you converted, you would not just convert because you got sick of doing the rap thing, wrapping, filling, yeah, exactly. You wouldn’t do it. You got sick of Shabbat, which is Shabbat’s actually a very nice ritual to do. Yeah, it’s not because you would’ve gotten sick of fat, right? So it’s not You would do it because you would be convinced that the most Jewish thing to be would be Christian, and if you were
Believe that’s a totally fair argument. Honestly, it’s a totally fair argument. And so that’s what I was going to say is if you believe that I was going to convert because I was actively attracted by the story of Jesus and his divinity, then I would probably end up Catholic. Give me that point. I want that point. Okay. However, I were to convert because I just got sick of the Jewishness of it. I’d go Protestant because honestly, you guys do a lot of stuff and
A lot.
It’s a lot, but you are right. Listen, both the Pope and I wear keep us. You can see the picture of us. His keep is bigger than mine. That picture
Was so wholesome.
Trent:
I see where Shapiro is coming from because while the ritual law served an important purpose in the Old Testament, it’s no longer needed. The special dietary dress and behavioral rules in the Old Testament helped keep ancient Israel distinct from its pagan neighbors and prevented mixing with those groups, which is why so many of the laws underscore not eating animals that mix kinds or wearing mixed fabrics or planting mixed seeds. But God’s people wouldn’t need these rules forever. In Galatians 3 24 through 26, St. Paul says this, the mosaic law was our custodian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith, but now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian for in Christ Jesus. You are all sons of God through faith. The word rendered custodian is PDA Gogos from which we get the English word pedagogy. In the ancient world, a PDA Gogos was a kind of babysitter who taught children in his care valuable lessons, a kind of ancient Mary Poppins, if you will.
So things like animal sacrifices prepare God’s people for Christ’s sacrifice, which took away the sins of the entire world. The catechism says that God’s revelation involves a specific divine pedagogy. God communicates himself to man gradually. He prepares him to welcome by stages, the supernatural revelation that is to culminate in the person and mission of the incarnate Word, Jesus Christ. And it says the terms holy sacrifice of the mass sacrifice of praise, spiritual sacrifice, pure and holy sacrifice are also used since it completes and surpasses all the sacrifices of the old covenant. God’s chosen people are no longer restricted to a single ethnic group who would bring forth the Messiah, but instead it makes up a universal church the Messiah instituted that would guide all people to salvation. This means we don’t need animal sacrifices to take away sin because Christ is our pascal lamb, the one sacrifice that takes away sins.
And we don’t need to follow ritual laws for the old covenant because we are now commissioned to evangelize the entire world under the new covenant. But that doesn’t mean Christianity doesn’t have any rituals. A ritual is just a solemn ceremony consisting of a series of actions performed according to a prescribed order. And under that definition, Protestantism also has rituals, and many of them are the same ones Catholics have. And of course when we say Protestantism, we’re using a word with a very wide meaning. Some Protestant denominations like Anglicanism and Lutheranism are very similar to the Catholicism in their rituals such as celebrating liturgical seasons like Lent with its corresponding holy days. Noels also points this out to Shapiro by saying that Ben would never be part of evangelical megachurch culture, but if he chose other mainline Protestant denominations, he’d also have to follow their rituals.
CLIP:
My final point on this is, okay, I get it. One day you say, okay, I’ve had enough of the rituals, I want it. You are telling me Ben Shapiro is going to just in order to get out of the rituals, you’re going to go show up to the big auditorium with the smoke machines and the electric guitars. I’m going to see Ben Shapiro in that audience. I mean, I wasn’t aware that that’s all Protestantism.
Well, but if you, that’s a particular hypo Protestantism,
Correct? If you become Episcopalian, that’s just twice the liturgy, half the guilt of the Catholic. So now you’re kind of right back where you were. I mean, Episcopalian is a whole different thing.
Trent:
What I’d say to Ben Shapiro is that if he ever became Christian, it would be because he genuinely believed the Messiah had been revealed, and so wouldn’t it make sense that the religion of the Messiah would look a lot like a fulfilled form of Judaism? For more on that, I recommend Brent Petrie’s books on the Jewish roots of Catholicism and also my episode Why Jew should be Catholic. There’s two last points I want to make When it comes to the ritual objection against Catholicism. First the claim Jesus Christ paid it all. He became our final and all sufficient sacrifice. There’s no more need for rituals is patently false. Non-denominational Protestants also engage in many rituals like baptizing people and celebrating the Lord’s supper. Now, a Protestant might say, there are no more rituals we have to undergo for the atonement of our sins. To which I’d say you’re absolutely right.
Christ’s death on the cross was a perfect even gratuitous sacrifice. It merited an infinite amount of grace because the death of the God man has infinite value, so it’s capable of saving everyone God created. That’s why John says Christ is the expiation for our sins and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Christ sacrifice takes away the sins of the world, but not everyone is necessarily going to heaven because they must freely choose to accept the grace that Christ merited for them and not reject that grace. That’s why Hebrews 10, 26 through 27 says, if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment. And when it comes to the myth that our works are finished because Jesus said it is finished, see the episode link below.
Now, a Protestant might say, okay, okay, there’s no more rituals one must do to receive grace. Our salvation is by faith alone. But this also isn’t true because many Protestants believe in baptismal regeneration, and so they recognize that the sacred ritual of baptism is the way we receive the grace of justification. Martin Luther even said this, yes, our works indeed avail nothing for salvation. Baptism however is not our work. But God’s God’s works, however, are saving and necessary for salvation and do not exclude but demand faith for without faith they could not be apprehended. Many Protestants also believe we receive grace through the reception of the Eucharist or what they call the Lord’s Supper, and that this is not merely a memorial of Christ’s sacrifice. But even Protestants who call this a memorial still engage in the ritual of the Lord’s Supper and many of those Protestants who say baptism is just a symbol of interfaith.
Say, baptism doesn’t count unless you’re fully immersed, which is an odd thing to say about a ritual that supposedly does not grant the believer God’s grace. But a critic might say that’s because Jesus told us to engage in the rituals of baptism and the Lord’s supper. We don’t need other rituals that aren’t in scripture, but that’s also not true because Protestants believe in a ton of rituals that are not in scripture. They have altar calls, weekly sermons led by a pastor, prayer chains and prayer warriors and Bible studies. The Bible doesn’t describe Christian celebrating weddings or funerals or birthdays, but Protestant cino problems with those rituals, many of them ritualistically subscribed to and support their favorite channels on YouTube. And so you shouldn’t be ashamed of doing the same for the Council of Trent and supporting us@trenthornpodcast.com to help us grow and stay sponsor free.
Protestants also usually celebrate Christmas rituals, including Christmas services, except for some who want to stay home on Christmas Sunday. But did you know in the 17th century, Puritans banned Christmas celebrations because they felt it was a non-biblical pagan festival that was too Catholic, which I see where they’re coming from because Christmas literally means Christ’s mass. Finally, a Protestant might say, sure, we have lots of rituals if you want to get technical about it, but we engage in these rituals not to be saved, but because we are saved. Well so do Catholics. I don’t go to mass because I’m trying to earn my way to heaven. I receive the grace that makes heaven possible through the gift of baptism. Now, all I must do is simply not throw that gift away through unrepentant grave sin and it would be a grave sin to disobey God’s command to honor him on the Lord’s day each week by attending the mass where he has made present through the Eucharistic offering.
I remember that John 3 36 says, he who believes in the Son has eternal life. He who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. And I remember Jesus said, truly, truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. In fact, many Protestants believe a self-professed Christian who never went to church would be someone who is never saved in the first place. So they believe this ritual is necessary for salvation and the paradigm of, well, it just proves you really weren’t saved in the first place. This just opens the door for so much lack of assurance, such just by fearing that your profession of faith at the altar call when you were 12 wasn’t really enough to be true faith or saving faith.
That’s why I’m grateful to have the assurance that comes from the plan of salvation found in Christ’s one Holy Catholic and apostolic church. The rituals of the Catholic life are not meaningless ones or tasks we have to perform to be saved. They’re just God’s way of helping us live the Christian life because he knows we are in the battle of our lives. That’s why St. Paul says this in Ephesians six, put on the whole armor of God that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil, for we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers against the world. Rulers of this present darkness against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore, take the whole armor of God that you may be able to withstand in the evil day and having done all to stand some of these God-given rituals are mandatory for the good of our souls like attending mass on Sundays and holy days or going to confession and receiving the Eucharist at least once a year.
They also include fasting on days like Ash Wednesday or Good Friday because God knows we are better able to say no to the devil when we practice saying no to the flesh. But these mandatory rituals are not backbreaking labor, especially in comparison to the rituals of most Protestants and evangelicals. In fact, while some Protestants say that Christians must tithe 10% of their income, the church does not require any specific level of tithing. The only teaching on this matter is that quote, the faithful also have the duty of providing for the material needs of the church each according to his abilities, which leaves the amount of support and whether it’s money or something else like volunteering up to a person’s conscience to decide. This all falls within the spirit of what our Lord said. Come to me all who labor and our heavy laden and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me. For I am gentle and lowly in heart and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. That doesn’t mean the Christian life is easy, but it does mean we are no longer bound to the rituals of the Old Testament. These once served an important purpose of being safeguards for God’s people, but they ended up becoming barriers to salvation such as by requiring circumcisions to be saved or adhering to all kinds of minute rules to the neglect of what God truly desired. This is why Jesus condemned the Pharisees and said this, woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for you, tithe mint, dill and cummin and have neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have practiced without neglecting the others.
Other rituals we have in the Catholic life are optional, but they’re still good because they strengthen us for the trials of this life. This includes different devotions like the rosary or praying the liturgy of the hours or alexio. Davina. Since people are unique, each of us will be attracted to different kinds of devotions or private rituals that help us grow in our faith. And many of them might be small, but still helpful, like simply saying the sign of the cross to always remind ourselves of the graces that we received in our baptism. And when it comes to rituals, it isn’t really about the number but the nature. Some Protestants rightly point out that for some Catholics, their faith is just empty ritual. These Catholics don’t really believe in Catholicism. They just go through the motions. They go to mass out of habit and it’s become an empty ritual.
And of course that’s a legitimate problem, but it’s not a uniquely Catholic problem. Lots of Protestants and other religious people can find themselves going through the motions during a period of drought. Even non-religious people might feel like they’re going through the motions in their marriage or their friendships. And what other people see as acts of kindness is just another item on their checklist. But just because good deeds and prayers can become repetitive rituals, that does not mean the good deeds and prayer themselves are bad. Isaiah 29 13 says this, people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and their fear of me as a commandment of men learned by rote. And Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they’ll be heard for their many words.
The criticism is not of ritual, but empty ritual. Psalm 1 36 repeats the phrase for his steadfast love endures forever dozens of times, but most Protestants would not find it a meaningless ritual if someone prayed this psalm with heartfelt intent just as praying. The rosary is not an empty ritual if one uses the prayer to dwell on the mysteries of Christ’s life. So the question we need to ask then is not how many rituals, but how good, good are they? Is this an arbitrary ritual that becomes a prideful opportunity to prove myself according to some human standard? Or is this a divine gift that contributes to my human flourishing? I understand Ben Shapiro’s weariness about rituals, especially when you watch some Jews on TikTok bragging about all the ways they find to have loopholes, to get around onerous rules related to Shabbat, the Jewish Sabbath. These include things like tying wires around neighborhoods to allow their home to technically include the whole neighborhood so they don’t violate very strict rules about not working outside the home on the Sabbath.
That’s why I’m grateful for the easy yoke of the Messiah Jesus of Nazareth and the rituals we have in his church. When Laura went in for brain surgery, we asked a priest to give her the sacrament of anointing of the sick. A ritual in scripture, the amenity evangelicals don’t celebrate. James five, 14 through 15 says, this is any among you sick. Let him call for the elders of the church and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick man and the Lord will raise him up, and if he is committed sins, he will be forgiven. James five 16 says, we should confess our sins to one another, which is why Catholics confess their sins to a priest. This whole passage is about the elders pre Roy from which we get the English word priest, and when things get really out of hand and the demonic is present, suddenly everyone sees the value, not just in rituals, but in distinctly Catholic rituals to exercise demons and send them back to hell where they belong. So to summarize, Catholicism has a fair number of rituals, but so do non-Catholic denominations. Most people in general have rituals they go through in life to commemorate important events in milestones. The question is not whether to have rituals, but which rituals ultimately come from God and are meant to lead us to him for our salvation. If you’d like to learn more about different Catholic rituals, devotions, and practices, check out our resources@catholic.com. Thank you so much for watching, and I hope you have a very blessed day.