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In this episode Trent examines Redeemed Zoomers claims about Vatican II and the Jews.
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Transcript:
Trent Horn (00:00):
Recently, Redeem Zoomer put out a video called The Gay Jew Who Changed Catholic Theology. So in today’s episode, I’ll respond to some of his claims. The overall thrust of his video seems to be that people like to say that Protestants, especially ARZ’s denomination, the Presbyterian Church of the USA, have been captured by LGBT liberals. RZ even raised a ruckus by proposing that PCUSA pastors promised to be in monogamous relationships, which upset the sparkle pastors in his denomination who support polyamory. But Arzi says that Catholicism also has elements that come from similar LGBT liberals and cites Gregory Baum as an example. Now, RZ is basically correct about Bomb being a Jewish convert who fled Europe during World War II and also identified as having same-sex attraction since his early teen years. Bomb converted during college after reading Augustine’s confessions, and a year later he joined the Augustinian order and became a priest.
(00:55):
He served as a theological advisor for the ecumenical secretariat at the Second Vatican Council and composed an early draft of Nostra Atate, the document on the church and other religions.
Redeemed Zoomer (01:05):
So I think it’s very interesting that one of the binding documents of Vatican II was written by an LGBT activist and all Catholics have to give religious submission of intellect and will to that document.
Trent Horn (01:17):
Bomb wasn’t an LGBT activist when he wrote Nostra Atate in 1961 and there’s no evidence he was publicly contradicting church teaching before that point. He may not have even personally disagreed with Catholic doctrine and sexuality when he wrote Nostra Tate. In Bomb’s autobiography, he says he began to disagree with Catholic teaching on sexuality sometime in the 1960s and he did not have relations with a man until 1963. His public dissent from church teaching did not occur until after he left the priesthood in the 1970s. The fact that Bomb left the church after writing Nostra Tate does not disprove Nostra Tate or even make it interesting that Catholics must adhere to its teachings. The church persists even when some of its members fall. Also, it’s not fair to judge a denomination’s teachings because some of its teachers have rejected those teachings. David Gushy was a Baptist minister and Richard Hayes was a Methodist minister.
(02:14):
Both were solid conservative Protestant ethicists, but both have now changed their minds and affirm homosexual conduct. But that would not change the value of the good content they did create before they changed their minds. Moreover, while RZ acknowledges this in the video, I want to make it clear that Baum wasn’t the only or even the primary author of Nostra Tate. He wrote an early draft of it on the church’s relationship to Judaism and other authors expanded the document to clude other religions. This was then rigorously edited and voted on. In Gavin DeCosta’s book, Vatican II, Catholic Doctrines on Jews and Muslims, he only mentions bomb once and it’s alongside many other equally prominent authors of Nostra Tate. Arzi then reads parts of Nostra Tate in his episode.
Redeemed Zoomer (03:00):
It says the Catholic church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. That’s a major difference between Catholic and Protestant theology. I mean, some Scholastic Protestants would agree with the more Catholic approach, but the Protestant approach is very strictly salvation by faith in Christ alone. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. The only way to God it all is through Jesus Christ.
Trent Horn (03:19):
Nostratate says in its opening paragraph that the church “considers above all in this declaration what men have in common and what draws them to fellowship. The document doesn’t contain a theological exploration of the possibility of salvation for non-Christians. That issue is taken up in the dogmatic constitution lumen gensium. That bomb was not involved in writing. So you can’t say that this claim about salvation is a change in doctrine that Bomb single-handedly caused. It was an idea present throughout all of the council fathers. Instead, Nostra Atate is an ecumenical document clarifying what Catholics have in common with other people, which helps evangelism by reducing the differences that could hinder conversion. And it’s not controversial to say that non-Christians who are made in the image and likeness of God can stumble upon truth and even holy behavior. For example, Jesus teaches what we call the golden rule in Matthew 7:12.
(04:16):
Whatever you wish that men would do to you do so to them or this is the law and the prophets. But versions of the golden rule can be found in many non-Christian religions such as Buddhism, which says, hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful. Or Janism, which says,” A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated. “Arzi also comments on the part of Nostra that discusses Islam.
Redeemed Zoomer (04:41):
So this says,” The church regards with esteem, also the Muslims, they adore the one God. Adore means worship. “So Vatican two officially stated that we worship the same God as Muslims. That’s not something the average Protestant would agree with, but the Catholic church now officially says Christians and Muslims worship the same God. And they say quarrels have arisen between Christians and Muslims historically, but this sacred sinned, meaning Vatican two, urges all to forget the past and move to promote together social justice and moral welfare. And that’s reflected in many statements of recent Popes. Pope Leo recently said Christians should be less afraid of Islam, and that is reflecting the theology of Vatican II.
Trent Horn (05:23):
First, even if this were a change in doctrine, it’s not the work of a single sneaky Jew because similar language is found in Lumen Gensium, which says that Muslims “along with us adore the one immersiful God who on the last day will judge mankind.” Second, neither document uses the phrase worship the same God. I find that particular wording to be more harmful than helpful because the word same can mean same in all respects, which is false because the true God is a Trinity or it can mean having the same reference. So here’s an analogy. Superman and the man of steel are the same thing. You could take a sentence about Superman and replace that word with man of steel and the meaning probably wouldn’t change, but Superman and Clark Kent aren’t the same thing because then the sentence Superman’s secret identity is Clark Kent could be written, Superman’s secret identity is Superman, which doesn’t make sense.
(06:20):
Instead, Superman and Clark Kent have the same reference, even if some people don’t know that about these terms. So when it comes to Christians and Muslims, Muslims don’t worship the same God as Christians in all respects, but a case can be made they worship the same entity referred to by the word God, even if Christians know much more about this entity’s true nature. And this isn’t some radically new post Vatican two novelty dreamed up by a gauge you or even the council fathers themselves. In the 11th century, Pope Saint Gregory the seventh said Christians and Muslims, “Believe and confess on God, although in different ways and praise and worship him daily as the creator of all ages and the ruler of this world.” For more on this subject, see my episode on it linked below. When it comes to the phrase forgetting the past, Nostra Tate says, “Since in the course of centuries, not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Muslims.
(07:16):
This sacred sinned urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind, social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.” The document is not saying that this is the only thing the church should do and the church should only practice kindness to others because as Lumingensium makes clear to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these creatures and mindful of the command of the Lord preach the gospel to every creature, the church fosters the missions with care and attention. Nostra Atate is just saying that Christians and Muslims should live in peace with each other and better understand each other’s religions, which seems pretty unobjectionable to me. And when it comes to Islam, Arzi is referring to this answer Pope Leo gave during an in- flight press conference.
Pope Leo XIV (08:06):
We all need to work together. One of the values of this trip is precisely to raise the world’s attention to the possibility that dialogue and friendship between Muslims and Christians is possible. I think one of the great lessons that Lebanon can teach to the world is precisely showing a land where Islam, Christianity are both present and are respected and that there is a possibility to live together to be friends. Stories, testimony, witnesses that we heard even in the past two days of people helping each other, Christians with Muslims, both of whom had their villages destroyed, for example, of saying, “We can come together and work together.” I think those are lessons that would be important also to be heard in Europe or North America that we should perhaps be a little less fearful and look for ways of promoting authentic dialogue and respect.
Trent Horn (09:01):
The Pope did not verbatim say we should be less fearful or less afraid of Islam. He said that we should be less fearful of our neighbors who belong to other religions because most of them want to live in peace like we do. I mean, an important precursor to sharing the gospel with other people is being able to live peaceably among them so that we see each other as fellow human beings and not as enemies. And when it comes to Islam, Arzi also said this.
Redeemed Zoomer (09:27):
There’s even that Muslim prayer group Muslim prayer room that was built in the Vatican recently.
Trent Horn (09:33):
This isn’t true. No prayer room was built for Muslims of the Vatican. Instead, the Vatican Apostolic Library hosts scholars from all over the world and some of the Muslim scholars asked if they could use a small space in the library for their daily prayers and the library allowed them to do that as a sign of goodwill. Next though, Arzee talks about Nostra Tate on Judaism, which is a part of the document that Bomb did work on in an early draft.
Redeemed Zoomer (09:58):
But then regarding the Jewish community, Nostra Tate makes some very big changes that have been elaborated on more by racing Popes. It says, “God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their fathers. He does not repent of the gifts he makes or of the calls he issues.” So now this is articulating something similar to dispensationalism. The theology of the church fathers was that the Jews were God’s chosen people in the Old Testament, but the soul continuation of God’s chosen people in the New Testament is the church. So it’s not exactly like the church has replaced Israel, but that is what people accuse the church fathers of believing because they say the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people. Christians are God’s chosen people and the church includes Jews and Gentiles, but the ethnically Jewish community, according to the church fathers, is not the chosen people at all.
(10:46):
They’ve been cut off if they do not believe in Christ. The Catholic church here is reversing that doctrine and saying that even though the church is the chosen people, God still has a special relation with the Jewish community because he does not repent to the gifts he makes or of the calls he issues. And we’re going to see that that has been clarified by the Vatican to mean explicitly God still has a special relation with the Jewish community.
Trent Horn (11:09):
This is the part of Arzie’s video that baffled me. What Arzi calls a reversal of Catholic doctrine is just scripture. Specifically, it’s Romans 11:28- 29. In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account, but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. The document is just quoting what St. Paul says to the Roman Christians about how we should understand Jews who have not converted to Christianity. They are not a cursed but are still beloved for the sake of their spiritual forefathers. Now, Arzee might say this represents a reversal of what the church taught in the patristic or the medieval era regarding the Jews being cut off from God. And there were church fathers who described the Jews in this way, but their views weren’t definitive church teaching and the church always recognized that Jews were distinct from other non-Christian religions as being a witness to salvation history and so they were allowed more religious freedom than pagans.
(12:08):
But even if it were a change in teaching, Catholic theology allows for non-infallible teachings to develop in this way. However, Pope Benedict IV in an article he wrote after stepping down from the papacy argues that the church never formally taught a doctrine called supercessionism. This is the claim that the Christian church has in every respect replaced Israel and so Israel no longer exists or Israel is just another name for the church and the Jewish people have no special status compared to other non-Christians. Benedict says, “Israel or Judaism always maintained a special position and was not simply submerged in the world of other religions.” He said this because of the Jews’ connection to the Old Testament and the New Testament’s hopeful description of Jews being saved, like in Romans 11:26, or them being in heaven like Revelation seven: four. The Pope Meritus then said this, “Both of these theses that Israel is not replaced or substituted by the church and that the covenant was never revoked are basically correct but are in many ways imprecise and need to be given further critical consideration.
(13:15):
The language of the never revoked covenant that we are examining is correct in so far as there is no denunciation on the part of God, but it is true that a breach of the covenant on the part of man belongs to the actual history between God and Israel.
Redeemed Zoomer (13:30):
It also says here just condemning medieval antisemitism, what happened in Christ’s passion cannot be charged against all Jews with that distinction, then alive nor against the Jews of today.
Trent Horn (13:39):
There were some saints and even Popes who taught that Jews were uniquely and supremely guilty of the death of Christ, but there were also other magisterial texts that did not endorse this view. In the 16th century, the catechism of the Council of Trent said this. “In this guilt are involved all those who fall frequently into sin. For as our sins consign Christ the Lord to the death of the cross, most certainly those who wallow in sin and iniquity crucify to themselves again the son of God. As far as in them lies and make a mockery of him. This guilt seems more enormous in us than in the Jews since according to the testimony of the same apostle, if they had known it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory. While we on the contrary professing to know him yet denying him by our actions seem in some sort to lay violent hands on him.
(14:29):
So there were magisterial teachings long before Vatican two that said Jewish people were not uniquely responsible for Christ’s death in a way that demands more outrage than we would have for our own sins being responsible for Christ’s death.
Redeemed Zoomer (14:45):
No Surtate forbids any Catholics from engaging in any acts of antisemitism and apparently the Catholics and Grapers in my comments section have not read Nostra Atate, but yeah, officially the Catholic Church bans any sort of antisemitism whatsoever, largely thanks to Gregory Baum and the document that he helped write.
Trent Horn (15:06):
I agree there are many self-described Catholics who do not follow the church’s teachings on the evil of antisemitism. I can’t help but notice that Arizi’s framing in this entire video encourages an antisemitic trope. Specifically, one of Jews being so untrustworthy that even after they convert, they will still have a desire to subvert the Christian faith. After all, why didn’t RZ say that a gay activist changed Catholic theology? Why even bring up that Bomb was Jewish at all? Highlighting this ends up serving people who grab onto the insinuation that Baum acted out of loyalty to his Jewish identity and manipulated Catholic texts in favor of that identity instead of just doing honest theology. But as DeCosta notes, many of the other authors, Anostrate were priests with Jewish ethnicities, which makes sense because this gives them a special insight of understanding about how the church can better relate to Jews.
(16:01):
It’s the same reason that the church would have indigenous people be involved in drafting documents about how the church should relate to indigenous people. Finally, the church condemned antisemitism long before Nostra Tate. Magisterial documents didn’t use that language since the term antisemitism wasn’t coined until 1879. This is similar to how the church has always opposed homosexual acts, even though the term homosexual wasn’t coined until 1868. The church always taught that Jews should not be physically attacked or forcibly converted to Christianity. In 1928, the holy office said,” The Apostolic Sea has protected this people against unjust oppression and just as every kind of envy and jealousy among the nations must be disapproved of so in a special manner must be that hatred which is generally turned antisemitism. Popius the 12th condemned the racist ideology of Nazi Germany in his encyclical Mitt Branigar-Sorge, and he said to a group of Belgian pilgrims in 1938, antisemitism is inadmissible.
(17:01):
Spiritually, we are Semites. Popiti 11th even authored an encyclical called Humani Generous Unitas on the unity of the human race but died before it could be promulgated. It said in part, antisemitism attempts to embarrass the church by giving her the alternative either to join with the antisemites in their total repudiation of any esteem or regard for anything Jewish and thereby to associate herself with the antisemites in their campaigns of vilification and hatred, or else to embarrass the church by involving her in the machinations and struggles of profane politics, attributing earthly and political motives to her legitimate defense of the Christian principles of justice and humanity. This isn’t magisterial teaching, but it does reflect the church’s understanding of the evil of antisemitism even before the Holocaust, which is why this teaching was promulgated at the Second Vatican Council. This was done not as the pet project of a liberal gay Jew, but as the natural development of the church’s understanding of how Christians should relate to Jewish people.
(18:02):
Arzi also highlighted how the Council of Florence reproves Jews and other non-Christians as not being saved using the Latin word reprobate to reprobate. But Vatican two says the Jews are not rejected or reprobate by God. Once again, this is about salvation for non-Catholics, which also appears in Lumingensium. So it’s not unique to Nostra and the documents are using the word in different contexts. Florence is talking about how the church alone provides salvation and so only reprobation can be found in other religions, not salvation. Nostrate on the other hand is talking about how Jews are not especially cursed or rejected by God, even amongst other non-Christians, simply because they were the chosen people who didn’t receive the Jewish Messiah. The document is not saying that Jews will automatically be saved or that they are not reprobate in the sense that all non-Christians are reprobate because they lack God saving grace.
(18:59):
Now, Arzi disagrees about interpreting Florence, and that’s something I’ve covered in previous episodes. My point is just that the alleged contradiction is, well, alleged, not real, but that this alleged contradiction is not rooted in Nostra Tate or the machinitians of a single gay Jew. Arzi then talks about Catholic evangelism of Jews.
Redeemed Zoomer (19:19):
Nostrotate has been officially interpreted by the Vatican to say that the church is no longer allowed as an institution to try and convert Jewish people to Catholicism. So it says we should see evangelism to Jews in a different manner as other world religions. So in other words, the Catholic church doesn’t see all non-Christian groups the same. So if somebody was like an atheist or a pagan, the Catholic church would still probably say, “Yeah, they need to believe in God.” I mean, there’s some Catholic voices like Bishop Robert Barron who would say even atheist of goodwill can be saved, but generally the idea is the Catholic church should try and engage in mission work to those that are not reached by the gospel. But because of nosuritate, the Catholic church now believes we should not engage in mission work towards the Jewish people. This is an authoritative interpretation from the Vatican.
(20:11):
So this interpretation of Nostratating is not necessarily binding on all Catholics, but this is still the official interpretation from the Vatican. There is this Vatican document called The Gifts and Calling of God Are Irrevocable is an authoritative interpretation of No Suratate, which is binding on all Catholics. And it says that the Catholic Church has an institution and neither conducts nor supports any specific institutional mission work directed towards converting the Jewish community.
Trent Horn (20:38):
Now as a Catholic, RZ and I have different views when it comes to the possibility of salvation for non-Christians. He believes that if someone does not have faith in Christ, they will go to hell, full stop. So for example, a seven-year-old Native American girl who lived a thousand years ago has spent the last thousand years suffering and agonizing existence in hell and will continue to suffer forever. And he fate is guaranteed because God decreed she would be born in a time and place where it was impossible for her to have faith in Jesus Christ. But perhaps you don’t hold that view and you believe God loves everyone and so he makes it at least possible for anyone to be saved. Of course, possible doesn’t mean probable. So even Bishop Barron would agree that while it’s possible an atheist could be saved in spite of his ignorance, it’s not a guarantee and that’s why evangelism is so important, which also applies to Jewish people.
(21:32):
There is a difference though between an official mission to a group of people sponsored by the church and the general duty to evangelize a group of people as individuals. The Catholic Church does not have an official mission or institution dedicated to converting Jews because this would not be received well by Jewish people or the Jewish community who culturally remember previous unjust attempts on behalf of official Catholic missions to convert them through coercion or other evil means to spread the faith. For some people, the Spanish Inquisition is no laughing matter. The document RZ cited is also not an authoritative teaching of the church. It’s a reflection on Nostra published by the Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews. And while it’s on the Vatican website, the text says of itself in the preface, “The text is not a magisterial document or doctrinal teaching of the Catholic Church.” So it’s not binding on Catholics, but it’s not even problematic because the text goes on to say, while there is a principled rejection of an institutional Jewish mission, Christians are nonetheless called to bear witness to their faith in Jesus Christ also to Jews, although they should do so in a humble and sensitive manner, acknowledging that Jews are bearers of God’s word and particularly in view of the great tragedy of the Shoah or the Holocaust.
(22:48):
The US Conference of Bishops also released a document in 2009 that corrected an earlier unofficial 2002 statement from Catholic and Jewish scholars. It said regarding those who say Jews should not convert that, “This line of reasoning could lead some to conclude mistakenly that Jews have an obligation not to become Christian and that the church has a corresponding obligation not to baptize Jews, which of course the US bishops say is false. This is why I posted an episode a few months ago simply titled Why Jew Wink Wink Should Become Catholic. All right. I hope today’s episode was helpful and clarifying issues related to Vatican II and the Jewish people. And if you like more resources on this, check out the articles at catholic.com. And don’t forget to subscribe to our channel and support us for as little as $5 a month at trendpodcast.com. Thank you guys so much and I hope you have a very blessed day.