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In this episode Trent interacts with President Trump and Protestant Joel Webbon’s rhetoric about hating our enemies.
Matthew’s ‘Get Out of Marriage Free’ Card
Transcription:
Trent:
In the aftermath of the killings of Irina Zarutska and Charlie Kirk, I’ve seen a lot of Christians say righteous anger isn’t enough. We need to hate those who commit and celebrate evil. At Charlie Kirk’s memorial yesterday, president Trump said something that even some Christians are tempted to believe. In reference to Charlie Kirk, he said
CLIP:
He did not hate his opponents. He wanted the best for them. That’s where I disagreed with Charlie. I hate my opponent and I don’t want the best for them. I’m sorry. I am sorry, Erica.
Trent:
In today’s episode, I’ll explain why this emotion as natural as it may feel, is incompatible with the Christian life. Let’s start with a recent interview of Protestant Joel Wein discussing Christian hatred.
CLIP:
There’s a lot of evil in the world and there are just reactions to that evil,
Right? Yeah. The part of the reason the West is on the decline, honestly, one of the quintessential primary reasons is because we’ve lost the will to hate. We’ve lost the will to hate. We must hate. Well, the Lord hates, and I do understand hate the sin and not the sinner. I think that there is at least a degree of that being biblically true, but we also do have verses in the scripture. I think of David in the Psalms who says, do I not hate those? Who hate you? Not hate that. Do I not hate those people who hate you? Yes, I hate them with a perfect hatred. One of my favorite verses
Trent:
Webbon posted this Bible verse one day after the Charlie Kirk shooting and said, Christians must learn to hate again. He then posted the following day, make America hate again. Now, I agree with Webb and that the modern world has lost the sense of what is evil, and so it often fails to hate those deeds which are evil. I’m reminded of Isaiah five 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil. And also Pope Pius the 12 who said in 19 46, 1 year after the worst war in the history of humanity, that perhaps the greatest sin in the world today is that men have begun to lose the sense of sin. Modern people can also have a distorted sense of empathy where they think, well, I wouldn’t want to feel bad, so I don’t want to punish this criminal because that would make him feel bad.
This leads to horrible stories of violent criminals being released only to harm other innocent people. This evil thinking is described in books like Blooms Against Empathy, that Case irrational Compassion, and Ali Best Stuckey’s Toxic Empathy. Though the venerable Fulton Sheen captured this error perfectly in a 1964 episode of his television show, life is Worth Living. False Compassion, which is gradually growing in this country is a pity that is shown not to the mugged, but to the mugger, not to the family of the murdered, but to the murderer, not to the woman who was raped, but to the rapist. I’ve seen this phenomenon firsthand where on the one hand you have liberals pouring out compassion for man who stabbed Irina TKA saying, we need to care for this hurting person.
CLIP:
It’s not about cashless bail or no cashless bail. It’s about the fact that we don’t know how to deal with people who were hurting in the way this man was hurting. Hurt people, hurt people. What happened was horrible, but it becomes an opportunity for people to jump on bandwagons.
Trent:
But then you have many on the left mocking Charlie Kirk’s widow and refusing to give any compassion to a woman mourning her murdered husband just because they disagree with her political views. Bishop Sheen says this false compassion started in literature that extended pity to even evil characters. This has been noted in memes that compare the solid morals of JRR Tolkien to the cliche moral gray of George RR Martin and his series Game of Thrones. Bishop Sheen then explained that false compassion arises because without a universal objective moral standard, we can’t distinguish between good and bad kinds of suffering. We just want to indiscriminately eliminate all suffering. Even the justly deserved suffering of evil people, and it’s this kind of thinking that leads morally corrupt das and judges to set criminals loose on the streets. Those who operate with false compassion think prison sentences represent society failing to care for someone who then had to turn to crime, whereas those with true compassion see that in many of these cases, prison is a just punishment for a person who has failed in his duty towards society.
But I’d also point out that it’s very easy to use righteous anger as an excuse to engage in the sin of vengeance. And while people on the far right might espouse this kind of vengeance towards violent criminals, the far left also has its fair share of vengeance and hatred of those they consider to be evil doers. You can see that in articles from people like Brandon Ambrose Cino a professor at Villanova University. He’s in a so-called marriage with a man and has written previous articles calling for the Catholic church to change its teaching on homosexuality. Ambrosino doesn’t think sodomy is a sin, but he does think Trumpism is a sin given that the title of one of his articles is, I don’t want Trump to Go to Heaven. Thankfully, he at least sees he has a problem and writes this. The part of me that doesn’t want Trump in heaven is the part of me that I need to work on.
I need to repent of hoping that God hates the people I want him to hate. It’s a common human failing to want God to mercilessly, annihilate those we consider bad or consider enemies or even just those people who are objectively bad. For example, I saw several people online reacting to the horrible shooting at Annunciation Catholic school in Minnesota hoping for the damnation of the shooter. And on a side note, can we please not share the name and images of mass shooters and other notable evil doers even if we are denouncing them? If we truly hate the evil they do, then we should not facilitate that evil by sharing it through traditional media or social media. Multiple studies have shown that the more a mass shooter is profiled in media or online, the more likely it is someone else will commit a copycat crime in order to achieve similar fame.
And while anger toward these crimes is completely understandable, we cannot allow the anger to become hatred. Ephesians 4 26 through 27 says this, be angry, but do not sin. Do not let the sun go down on your anger and give no opportunity to the devil. As Christians, we’re called to reject the innate human impulse to hate and to instead desire the salvation of all people. Even the most despicable. Ezekiel 33 11 says, say to them as I live says the Lord, God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live, turn back, turn back from your evil ways. Two Peter three, nine says, the Lord is forbearing toward you. Not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. Even if an evil doer commits suicide, we should pray for mercy, not vengeance on the person’s soul because you and I would want mercy at the moment of our deaths.
We should take hope in the all powerful God who can right every wrong, comfort the afflicted, and even save the seemingly irredeemable. Though that salvific process might include a very painful purification. So what does the Bible say about hatred? Well, the Bible does talk about God hating works of evil. The book of Proverbs says there are six things which the Lord hates, seven, which are an abomination to him, hotty eyes, a lying tongue and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies and a man who sows discord among brothers. However, I worry that some people use the good of hating certain deeds to support the evil of hating certain people. That doesn’t mean we have to be chipper towards or like everybody. It just means we must love or will the good of all people.
In contrast to what President Trump said at Charlie Kirk’s memorial Christians cannot hate anyone or they cannot will, that which is objectively bad for a person. When we do that, we often become the very evil that we hate. And by the way, Trump isn’t kidding when he says this stuff in his book, think Big and Kick Ass in Business in Life, he has an entire chapter dedicated to the virtue of revenge and frequently talks about how it makes him feel good. He writes, when someone crosses you, my advice is get even that is not typical advice, but it is real life advice. If you do not get even, you’re just a schmuck. When people wrong, you go after those people because it is a good feeling and because other people will see you doing it. I love getting even. However, the self-deprecating nature of Trump’s remarks at the memorial, give hope.
He sees this as an inferior way of living compared to Charlie Kirk’s manifest Christian Love and the forgiveness shown by his widow to the man who murdered him. We also have to remember that God progressively led his people to the perfect law of Christ and along the way tolerated some of their evil habits in the Old Testament. In his interview, we quote Psalm 1 39, where the author describes his prayer to God saying He hates his enemies. Do I not hate them that hate? Oh Lord, and do I not loathe them that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred. I count them my enemies. Ironically, although Webbon is a Calvinist, here is how John Calvin interpreted this verse, the hatred of which the psalmist speaks is directed to the sins rather than the persons of the wicked. We are so far as lies in us to study peace with all men. We are to seek the good of all. Webbon seems to have pushed this interpretation towards his critics, but his earlier statements seem to focus on hating evil people and not just hating evil deeds.
CLIP:
Do I not hate those who hate you? Not hate that. Do I not hate those people who hate you? Yes, I hate them with a perfect hatred. One of my favorite verses,
Trent:
However, in the Old Testament, there are passages where God commands enemies to be treated with kindness. Exodus 23, 4 through five says, if you meet your enemies ox or his ass going astray, you shall bring it back to him. If you see the ass of one who hates you lying under its burden, you shall refrain from leaving him with it. You shall help him to lift it up. In the Old Testament, the human author of scripture might poetically express anger towards his enemies, but there are also passages in the Old Testament that temper this emotion, all of which build towards a particular end found in Jesus Christ. The catechism of the Catholic church says even though they contain matters, imperfect and provisional, the books of the Old Testament bear witness to the whole divine pedagogy of God saving love. So for example, the Old Testament allows for divorce, but Jesus’s fulfillment of the Old Testament law means remarriage after divorce can no longer be a part of God’s covenant.
People. Jesus said, for your hardness of heart, Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife except for un chastity and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a divorced woman commits adultery and for the meaning of the phrase, except for un chastity, check out the link in the description below. In the same way hatred of one’s enemies was tolerated, but it was not God’s ultimate plan for his people. That’s why Jesus gave what is easily his most difficult teaching. In the Sermon on the Mount, he said, you have heard that it was said, you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you so that you may be children of your Father in heaven.
For he makes his son rise on the evil and on the good and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same. By the way, I don’t hate anyone who does not subscribe to this channel. I just feel bad that you might miss out on content that will edify you. So for your own good, hit that subscribe button and like this episode so you can help more people discover all of our great content, and if you want to support us, please go to trent horn podcast.com. Now, some people object to this teaching saying Jesus is being hypocritical because he told people to hate their own family members. In Luke 1426, Jesus says, if anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple, but words have meaning beyond their strict definition.
For example, a hater can just be a critic, not an actual hateful person. In ancient Hebrew hating someone could just mean to love him less than others and not refer to malice or anger. This can be seen with Jacob who was married to Rachel and Leia, the daughters of his uncle Laben. Genesis 29 30 through 31 says, so Jacob went into Rachel also and he loved Rachel more than Leia and served Laben for another seven years. When the Lord saw that Leia was hated, he opened her womb, but Rachel was barren. Of course, Jacob didn’t actually hate Leia. He just loved her less than Rachel, who was the woman he originally wanted to marry before his uncle tricked him into marrying Leia. Jesus would not say we should hate our parents because he criticized the Pharisees for not honoring Father and mother Jesus is instead saying that our love for God must come first and nothing on earth, even the people closest to us can be more important to us.
Matthew 10 37 through 38 describes the same saying of Jesus, but rephrases it slightly so that the meaning is easier to discern. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever does not take up his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me. Now, you might be thinking, I can’t love my enemy. I just have too much anger towards him or her. I’ve personally experienced this anger when I see people lie about Charlie Kirk passing around a meme with a mis quotation of him denigrating all black women, which he never said, or seeing them gleefully celebrating his death. So how can we love these kinds of enemies, these people that make us so angry? First, accept that your anger makes the love of enemies truly virtuous.
Consider the virtue of courage. Courage is not doing good without fear. It’s overcoming fear to do good. When Superman fights regular guys with guns, he isn’t being courageous because this is invulnerability to bullets means he has nothing to fear. But when regular people risk gunfire to serve a righteous cause even when they’re terrified on the inside, then that’s true courage. Likewise, if you love someone that fills you with feelings of joy, that’s not merciful. But when you show love to someone, even though you’re furious towards them on the inside, then that’s true mercy. That’s true Compassion. Second, loving enemies does not mean you can’t ever make them feel bad. One way to love evil doers is through just punishment, which helps reform them and repairs the damage their evil deeds of caused, and this can include them maybe getting fired for doing something as depraved, as celebrating murder as we saw with many liberals who were fired for celebrating Charlie Kirk’s murder.
So we can take comfort in people being justly punished for their evil deeds, but we also have to guard against this turning into the emotion of shad and Freud or deriving pleasure at others’ misfortunes. We should always pray that consequences like these lead to true repentance. Finally, the Bible gives good advice for treating our enemies in a way that pleases God and also helps appease our desire that evil doers get what they deserve. In Romans chapter 12, St. Paul quotes the Old Testament saying this, let love be genuine, hate what is evil. Hold fast to what is good. Beloved, never avenge yourselves. Leave it to the wrath of God. For it is written, vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord. No. If your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he’s thirsty, give him drink for. By so doing, you will heap burning coals upon his head.
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. This means if you are kind to an enemy, one of two things will happen. In response to your kindness, the person who hurt you might become open to God’s grace. You can then be reconciled to that person and even help him be reconciled to God, bringing everyone to a joyful peace. One quote from Abraham Lincoln summarizes this, well, do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends? And the second option, if the person does not accept your kindness and chooses to dwell in their hatred for you, your act of kindness and refusal to let them get under your skin or give into their hatred in return, this will drive them absolutely crazy. And so you end up inflicting suffering on an enemy, but you do so in a morally permitted way that foresees but does not intend the pain that is caused, and it leaves the consequences up to God rather than taking it upon yourself In the role of a vigilante, Charlie Kirk knew this and wrote on X, always forgive your enemies.
Nothing annoys them so much. So to bring all this together, the Bible does say that we should hate evil deeds and stand against evil doers, but God’s revelation in Christ calls us to love everyone, including our enemies. That means Christians can never hate any human being made in God’s image, even if this kind of hatred was tolerated earlier in salvation history before the full revelation of Jesus Christ. We can place people under judgment for the crimes they commit in this life, but we must pray that they like all people, not fall under God’s eternal judgment of damnation in the next life. Thank you so much for watching, and I hope you have a very blessed day.