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In this episode Trent replies to Christians that have criticized his opposition to vulgar abusive rhetoric.
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Trent Horn (00:00):
Last month I replied to Andrew Wilson’s criticisms of me that he made on the Patrick Bett David Show. And the responses from him and some of the other people I criticized in that episode ranged from the unusual to the unhinged. So in today’s episode, I’m going to go through those responses and restate why I consider this issue so important and not just something we can agree to disagree about. All right, so to give you a little context, Andrew Wilson said I and Lila Rose belong to a group he calls sowing circle Christians who care more about appeasing liberals by criticizing Christians who swear, for example, instead of uniting with those Christians to combat degenerates.
Andrew Wilson (00:36):
But I never see him surrounded with a panel of the worst degenerates on earth debating all of their worldview simultaneously, but they have tons of criticisms for people who do.
Trent Horn (00:47):
But that’s not my position. As I made clear in my response to Andrew, I’m all in favor of doing whatever it takes to combat error and evil, except for using sinful methods like verbally abusing people. And to make sure I didn’t misunderstand Andrew, I sent him the script for my episode ahead of time and I incorporated almost all his replies into the final episode. So I was baffled when I saw him post on X afterwards that he considered my response fundamentally dishonest. However, Andrew’s response paled in comparison to others, especially Jay Dyer. In one part of my episode, I criticized Dyer for calling Talbert Swan Tilda Swinton. He wasn’t being abusive, but it is annoying and silly for someone who wants to publicly defend the Christian faith on a large platform. But then Dyer said on X, Trent Horn virtue signals over me calling a fake black activist bishop a fake bishop.
(01:39):
But I didn’t say that. This is either a lie or an ignorant falsehood. So I told Jay, I accurately pointed out your embarrassing behavior, which in this case was calling Talbert Swan Tilda Swinton. I said nothing about the title of Bishop. This is yet another example of you behaving like an overgrown 12-year-old instead of a mature man of God. Grow up. Notice my reply is not verbal abuse. It’s a fraternal correction rooted in objective facts about how Dyer was conducting himself. It’s the same correction I gave Nick Fuentes regarding his abusive behavior towards my family.
Nick Fuentes (02:14):
“Oh, my family, you attacked my family. You called my wife a bit.” Well, okay. She’s a baby. You’re a couple of. You and your wife and your whole family are … You got a whole family of whiny, lying. Is that better?
Trent Horn (02:32):
Well, what would be better is if you submitted yourself to a spiritual director, maybe someone like Father Riperger, so you can learn to behave in an actually Christlike way and not like an overgrown 12-year-old screaming into his Xbox Live headset. Once again, fraternal correction is not the same as abusive insults and any mature person can see the difference. But after giving this kind of correction to Jay Dyer, he completely lost it. He immediately blocked me and went on a tirade of posts, including one where he simply says, “Hey, Trent, F word you. ” And this kind of language isn’t unusual for Jay, though I would ask him if the Orthodox monks on Mount Athos talk like he does. And I’m going to be blunt. If a person consistently has this kind of anger in his heart, he will not go to heaven. What concerns me is that Dyer, Wilson, and other commenters like them cultivate this sinful attitude among their audiences, and that can lead to damn nation for many of their followers if they fall down the rabbit hole of hatred and malice.
(03:30):
What amazes me about everyone who says I’m tone policing is that when I watch their response videos, they just stare at their screen as I read off Bible verse after Bible verse that says Christians should not act like the way they act, and they have no response, or they use the craziest exegetical gymnastics to get around the text. Here’s part of Jay’s reaction. Popping an F bomb to insult somebody, like Andrew does in this clip.
Andrew Wilson (03:56):
I will never be able to convince you of my worldview. Charlie, I just think honestly, you’re too stupid to understand them.
Trent Horn (04:02):
St. Paul repeatedly says that overseers in the church must be gentle and not quarrelsome or violent, and that all Christians must put away anger, wrath, malice, slander, and foul talk from their mouth. Jesus said in Matthew 5:22, “Whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council and whoever says you fool shall be liable to the hell of fire.” And second Timothy chapter two said-
Jay Dyer (04:24):
Yeah, the text is not making a joke or making fun of people. The text is accuses his brother and thus liable to the council. So that’s some Roman Cali translation.
Trent Horn (04:35):
Notice that Jay has to sit in silence at the verses which describe how Christians should act because he consistently does not act like that. Second, Matthew 5:22 doesn’t have the Greek word categoryo, which means accuse, though that word does appear in Matthew 12:10 and Matthew 27:12. An accuser is mentioned in Matthew 5:25 in a different context and situation, but the Greek of Matthew 5:22, the verse I referenced, just records Jesus saying, “Anyone who becomes angry or enraged with his brother or Gizomanos is liable to judgment and anyone who says or calls, not accuse, but merely says his brother is a rocka or fool will be liable to the Sanhedrin and hell of fire.” And this isn’t some Catholic translation because the same translation can be found in the Orthodox Study Bible. Another point my profane critics made was that I was inconsistent because I thought Stephen Colbert’s joke with Phillip Zimbardo where he said, “I teach Sunday school mother effer was okay.” But most people recognize that Cobert was speaking comedically in an over the top way.
(05:41):
He wasn’t angrily calling Zimbardo an MFer, like how Dyer said F you to me with anger or other apologists online who I’ve seen use language like F you, you effing F slur. At worst, all this critique proves is I was incorrect in where we should draw the line between colorful speech and sinful speech. Not that there is no line to be drawn or that these profane critics don’t gratuitously go over the line in their own abusive behavior. Another thing these critics do is ignore the Bible’s commands to be gentle by saying they’re allowed to imitate the prophets, apostles and Christ himself who they say allegedly mocked people. That’s the claim Sam Shamoon made when he was on Bryce Crawford’s podcast recently. But let me give you an analogy to show why this method doesn’t work. Imagine I told my children, “Don’t steal and destroy books from the library.” Then one day they start stealing books because they saw me take a cornographic book and destroy it.
(06:40):
I’d tell them, “I appreciate you trying to be like me, but you aren’t mature enough to know what should and shouldn’t be taken. So please just follow my instruction and don’t take any books from the library.” In the same way, these critics end up justifying all kinds of vile, abusive behavior that holy people in scripture would never permit. Frankly, I don’t know how scripture could be clearer on how Christians are supposed to engage others. So I’m going to read the verses yet again, and I challenge any of these profane critics to take each one, go through each of them and explain why they don’t apply to their own abusive rhetoric. Here we go. Colossians three: eight, put them all away, anger, wrath, malice, slander, and foul talk from your mouth. Ephesians 4:29, “Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for edifying, as fits the occasion that it may impart grace to those who hear.” Two Timothy 2:24- 25, “The Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome, but kindly to everyone, an apt teacher forbearing, correcting his opponents with gentleness.” Luke 6:27- 28, “Love your enemies.
(07:49):
Do good to those who hate you. Bless those who curse you. Pray for those who abuse you. ” Romans 12:14, “Bless those who persecute you. Bless and do not curse them.” First Peter three: nine, “Do not return evil for evil or reviling for revivaling. But on the contrary, bless. For to this you have been called that you may obtain a blessing. And yet Christians like Sam Shamoon say that we should curse the people who revile us.”
Bryce Crawford (08:14):
Is there a time and place to then throw pearls onto Swan?
Sam Shamoun (08:17):
No, you never have a time and place through. What you do is what Paul did. When he saw Elimas wasn’t interested, what did he do? He cursed them and ridiculed them. That’s their treatment. You son of the devil. Enemy evolved that is righteousness. You will not stop perverting the ways of the Lord. He didn’t even entertain him to talk. He cursed him. When I say curse, not like curse like F word. No, no, that’s not what I’m talking about. He rebuked him and invoked God’s judgment on him. That’s what I mean by curse. Not like, “Hey, you’re your mother.” I’m not saying that.
Bryce Crawford (08:48):
Right, right.
Sam Shamoun (08:49):
So when you see those people, you are to rebuke them, chasing them, block them and remove them.
Trent Horn (08:57):
I agree that if someone won’t listen to you, you should probably kick the dust from your feet and move on. But the New Testament is clear that we should bless and not curse our enemies. And I’m astounded by the lengths my profane critics go to in order to justify their immoral behavior. We’ve already seen Jay Dyer try to do that with the sermon on the mount. Watch how Sam Shamoon does that with one Peter 3:15.
Bryce Crawford (09:19):
I’m thinking of one Peter 3:15, right? It says, “In your heart to honor Christ, your Lord is holy.” And always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks from the hope inside
Sam Shamoun (09:27):
Of you. But notice the context. Whoever’s asking you, given apologetic, do so with gentlest reverence. To whom? To those who ask you. What if they’re not asking because they want to know? What if they’re asking to bully you, intimidate you, to blaspheme? I know what one Peter three, but what’s the context? Whoever asks you, well, what if they’re not asking you to learn? What if they’re trying to bully you, intimidate you? What if they’re trying to censor you? What if they’re trying to mock you?
Trent Horn (09:56):
But that’s exactly what the context of one Peter three addresses. How to remain holy even when evil people attack you. I’m going to read the passage at length so you can see the context is the exact opposite of Sam Shimoon’s interpretation. Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love of the brethren, a tender heart and a humble mind. Do not return evil for evil or reviling for revivaling. But on the contrary bless, for to this you have been called that you may obtain a blessing. For quoting Psalm 34, “He that would love life and see good days. Let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking Guile. Let him turn away from evil and do right. Let him seek peace and pursue it. For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous and his ears are open to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those that do evil.
(10:50):
Now, who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is right?” So in other words, don’t worry about repaying mockers with evil because God will take care of that. Instead, Peter goes on to say this. “But even if you do suffer for righteousness sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them nor be troubled. But in your hearts, reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the hope that is in you. Yet do it with gentleness and reverence and keep your conscience clear so that when you are abused, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. For it is better to suffer for doing right if that should be God’s will than for doing wrong. So no, we aren’t called to be kind only to those who gently ask us questions.
(11:40):
We have to be kind even to people who mock us. Now we can call out evil with blunt language, but we should strive to be kind when we do that. And when we do that, we actually put our critics to shame by exposing their bad behavior. But Sam Shamoon’s approach and others like him, it does the opposite. It puts themselves to shame through their bad behavior and it makes their opponents look good in comparison. You can see this in Sam’s correspondence with Ryan from needgod.net showing what he said to Sam.
Ryan “NeedGod.net” (12:10):
I think it’d be good to watch it and prayerfully reflect on it because I want you to go to heaven, but I know that trusting in your obedience isn’t going to get you there. I do have a heart for him. I’m praying for him that God saves him. That’s my whole aim is why I’m responding to him. How does he respond? He calls me, ” I know you are all full of your Father the devil and you think they’re refuted. “And then he talks about part two. He says,” Stop hiding like a rabid dog. “And he says,” Men up go for a debate. “He says,” Son of Satan, as for the cowardly, the faithless that he quotes Revelation 21, their part would be the lake of fire. You make your father Satan proud. “He’s just being completely disrespectful. I’ve been trying to be kind, courteous to him, completely disrespectful in his response.
Trent Horn (12:57):
Or in this reply, Sam gave to a Protestant whose show I’m going to actually go on in a few months.
Mike Pagano “True Christian Ministry” (13:02):
Sam sent two emails back, spoken like a vile, demonized son of Satan, typical of you spiritual dogs.
Trent Horn (13:10):
And keep in mind, these are not reviling mockers. They’re just Protestants who disagree or kindly ask questions and still get the rough treatment. Now, some people might say that this kind of behavior is the only way to get through to more aggressive critics. People like Muslim apologists who are more likely to resort to bombastic rhetoric. But that’s not true because Christian apologists like inspiring philosophy show how to be assertive with Muslim apologists without being abusive or petty. I also pointed out in my previous episode that some of the examples abusive Christians say that they imitate from scripture aren’t actually in scripture. Like the idea that Jesus whipped human beings when he cleansed the temple. As I pointed out in my previous episode, the grammar of that passage in the gospel of John suggests that Jesus only used the whip he made to drive out the cattle, which would not have seriously hurt the cattle.
(14:03):
It would’ve only caused them to leave the temple and the money changes would’ve pursued them. Dire, however, claimed that I quote,” Spent several minutes arguing Jesus would never make a whip of chords, “which is not true. But as you can see, saying untrue things is a bad habit for Jay Dyer. Sam Shimoon also had this to say.
Sam Shamoun (14:21):
If a Muslim had done this, I’d say what a wicked dishonest distortion of scripture, but for the sake of charity, I have to be Christlike to him. When John tells us he made a whip of chords and he drove them out and chords, all he drove out from the temple. And having made a whoop of chords, all he drove out from the temple, both sheep and oxen. Okay. Is now Trent saying that what he drove out are sheep and oxen? So Trent is saying that Jesus was being physically violent to sheep and oxen?
Trent Horn (15:00):
Yes. Jesus drove the animals out with an improvised whip, which would not have been violent toward them because of their thick hides and codes. This action got all the sheep and oxen to leave.
Sam Shamoun (15:10):
So are you telling me that John just wrote something superfluously that Jesus made a whip of chords because he had nothing better to do because he didn’t do anything with the whip of chords? Because the text doesn’t say he drove out anyone. That means it didn’t even say he drove out animals if we go with this sex to Jesus, right?
Trent Horn (15:29):
No, Sam. I said Jesus didn’t whip anyone, not anything. I was careful to use the pronoun any one to refer to the people in the temple, not the animals. And Sam then tries to refute my argument by merely surveying different translations of this passage, some of which agree with me. He doesn’t deal with the original Greek in the passage or the two scholarly articles I cited in my video that make a compelling case for the adjective pontas referring only to the sheep and the oxen.
Sam Shamoun (15:58):
You’re dishonest in a hypocrite here, Trent. And I say this in love, brother. In love, I got to call you out. Even Paul called Peter hypocrite, so don’t think you’re better than Peter. You and I are not good enough to carry Peter’s or Paul Sandals. Stay in your lane, brother. Stay away from the issue of science. Stay away from evolution creation. Stay away from Genesis. Stay away from these issues of how to treat people. Stay in your lane. Don’t criticize us so we don’t criticize you and put you in your place, brother.
Trent Horn (16:27):
No, thanks. I’m going to keep calling out error and if you don’t like that, you’re free to publicly disagree with me and people can judge for themselves. But this pseudo macho approach to Christian apologetics you see in people like Wilson, Dyer and Shimoon is tiresome. It tries to bully people into accepting their view because their view can’t win in a calm and collected exchange of ideas that is free of aggressive debate tricks. Finally, I want to clear up some points on how I engage with critics and what I choose to debate. My goal with the Council of Trent is to help as many people as possible who are the furthest away from Jesus Christ. So that’s why I focus on debating the major theological and moral issues of our time. I have no interest in debating people on things like profanity and apologetics, flat earth theory, or unfounded conspiracy theories about the Jews.
(17:19):
Two Timothy 2:23 says, “Have nothing to do with stupid senseless controversies. You know that they breed quarrels.” This is also why I’m not interested in doing debates on young earth creationism or whether St. Joseph was a widower before he was betrayed the Mary. Christians are free to accept or reject those positions, so I’m not interested in debating people on those topics. Now, I am willing to dialogue with certain people on finer points of disagreement if they are amenable to dialogue, but my profane critics have shown that they lack the maturity to engage in those kinds of conversations. And so to sit down with them would contradict this old piece of advice. Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it. Also, just because I mentioned someone in an episode, that doesn’t mean I’m going to send a script for them to review.
(18:05):
I send scripts to make sure I don’t misunderstand a complex argument or belief system. However, if someone’s error or misbehavior is patently obvious, I’m just going to comment on the error. Plus, if they have a track record of immaturity or an inability to even perceive reality beyond their rhetoric, then I have no reason to expect a good faith reply from them, so I’m not going to waste my time seeking one. Finally, I hope that if you are interested in apologetics, you will not act like these people and instead emulate truly mature modern defenders of the faith, be it Christian apologists like William Lane Craig or John Lennox or Catholic intellectuals like Scott Hahn and Ed Faser, the latter of whom can throw rhetorical punches while still retaining a gentlemanly disposition. Instead of seeing ourselves as apologists first, we should see ourselves first as ambassadors, those who diplomatically represent Christ to other people.
(19:00):
Part of being an ambassador involves standing up for the sovereign you represent, but doing so in a diplomatic way because we’re literally diplomats on behalf of the ultimate sovereign. Two Corinthians 5:20 says this. “So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. If you’d like to learn more about this topic, I recommend Father Gregory Pine’s new book, Training the Tongue: Avoiding Sins of Speech. Thank you all so much for watching and I hope you have a very blessed day.