Audio only:
In this episode Trent shares a portion of his recent conversation with Kelly Powers where he reveals the moral poverty of sola scriptura.
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Transcript:
00:00:00:04 - 00:00:15:02
today’s episode, I want to share with you part of the conversation I had with Protestant apologist Kelly Powers, which got pretty heated. But first, a little backstory. A few weeks ago, I debated Ryan from Nygard Net on whether Christians who trust in Christ can still lose their salvation.
00:00:15:02 - 00:00:34:18
And I asked Ryan if Christians who commit graves sins would still be saved. So I asked him in particular about a not uncommon grave sin among people who claim to trust in Christ, namely anal intercourse among Mary couples, instead of just biting the bullet. Ryan went further and said he could not condemn this act because the Bible doesn’t prohibit it.
00:00:34:18 - 00:01:00:05
So I wanted Ryan on the record, refusing to condemn sodomy. After the debate, however, several Protestants demanded that I apologize for what they considered to be inappropriate language that children might have heard, which I thought was hilarious because I’m sure little children are eager to watch high level theology debates. In fact, these critics reminded me of pro choices who complain about holding signs depicting aborted fetuses outside of abortion facilities.
00:01:00:06 - 00:01:25:00
It’s morally hypocritical to be more upset over children seeing dead children than the children being killed in the first place. Likewise, I see no need to apologize to people who believe it is immoral to simply ask about the morality of an act, but not immoral to actually engage in that act itself. One of those critics who demanded I apologize was Kelly Powers, so I went on his show to tell him why I wasn’t going to do that.
00:01:25:01 - 00:01:44:26
For example, if I had asked Ryan if saved Christians who engaged in same sex anal intercourse would still be saved, Ryan would have just said yes, even if they commit that grave sin, and my critics would not have raised the same level of protest. But it’s obvious. The reason they got so vocal and so upset was because they were embarrassed.
00:01:44:26 - 00:02:04:21
They were embarrassed that following sola scriptura prevents them from condemning what they know deep down is very disordered and wrong. So after letting Kelly ask me questions for a bit, I decided to ask him some questions of my own to give more examples of how sola scriptura fails in this way. And we had an interesting discussion as a result.
00:02:04:21 - 00:02:21:25
And I’ll share that portion of our conversation with you today. Now I’ll be releasing, however, a more detailed episode on this subject in a few weeks. We’re all engaged. Other objections like the solar versus solo scripture objection. But for now, I thought you’d find our discussion interesting. So here it is.
00:02:21:25 - 00:02:38:06
But deep down, people know that this, that this is wrong. And I think that, you know, you might try to say, well, I have to accept it’s right because the soul scriptura. And I’m going to show the problem with that methodology. So I’m going to ask you some questions. And this will show the further moral impoverishment of sola scriptura.
00:02:38:06 - 00:02:47:14
So so here’s a few things. Just tell me if these things are wrong okay. Marrying your first cousin without the permission of the church.
00:02:47:17 - 00:03:11:07
Without the permission of the church. Yeah. I’d say say marrying your cousin from God’s point of view would not be biblically number one. Where does the Bible say you can’t marry your cousin? Well, we look at Scripture. You know, there is that’s that’s a good question. So you got me on that one. There you go. Is there a scripture says you can’t marry your cousin?
00:03:11:14 - 00:03:35:22
Well, there is no scripture that directly says you can’t marry your, you know, your sister, your you know, the seek and marry your brother. So to be clear, Trent, I mean, well and the Bible talks about cousins being married like Jacob and Leah, for example, right? Look, look. The conversation today, I don’t want to be rude. The conversation has to do with about conduct and words of speech.
00:03:35:29 - 00:03:58:26
That’s what I made. That’s. You think that’s funny? Why is that funny? No, it’s funny because the reason I said that and the reason I wanted to come on was I’m not going to apologize because what I said revealed a fatal flaw in sola scriptura, in that people who believe in sola scriptura can’t condemn what is clearly evil because they’re straight jacketed by only what’s explicitly in Scripture.
00:03:58:29 - 00:04:22:04
And there’s many more examples of that, and you’re terrified to answer those questions. There’s going to make salsa. Can I can I flip the script so you you would believe I would assume marrying a cousin would be wrong, right? I assume this marrying your first cousin, it is not. Yeah. The position I hold is that it is not ideal.
00:04:22:04 - 00:04:47:00
Just like it’s not ideal to marry someone of a different religion. So in order to do that, you would need the permission of the church in a particular instance. And the Catholic Church was actually instrumental in drawing up laws related to marriage about how far away in family relations you can be married. And the church has been important in that, in making cousin marriage something that’s very, very rare, for example.
00:04:47:01 - 00:05:03:07
So I will why would the church, though? I want to try to understand if you’re you’re using this to attack. So let’s get to it. I get your point. I actually do get your point what you’re trying to say there. So if the church would say this is not good, what’s the reasoning for it? I’m trying to understand your where would you go with that?
00:05:03:07 - 00:05:29:25
Because it’s important for family relations to not be like, if you look in the Arab world, for example, in Muslim societies that have rampant cousin marriage, it creates disordered family unions. That’s why the church actually used to be harsher on this, saying, you couldn’t even marry your second cousin during the Middle Ages because it wanted to prevent these disordered familial clusters and other examples like that.
00:05:29:25 - 00:05:55:20
Eventually the line of permissible marriage was taken back, I think to the fourth degree, which would be like your your first cousin or your great aunt, I think, or something like that. And so there’s a recognition that it’s still keeping that marriage is creating these family clusters that are too intimate. So it’s not it’s not as gravely sinful as, say, you know, marrying like a sibling or a stepchild or something like that, but it’s right on the line.
00:05:55:20 - 00:06:14:08
So the church requires dispensation, just like marrying someone of a different religion in the Catholic faith. It’s not ideal, it’s not sinful, but it is. There’s some badness related to it. So you would need the church’s permission. Okay. It does talk about that too. Right. Okay. Right. But so you think that a Christian can never marry a non-Christian?
00:06:14:08 - 00:06:38:29
I would definitely think the scripture there should be. That’s what he’s talking about. Being married to a believer. Yeah. Okay. Well, we think all right, well, we can we can get into that. My point is in giving this example. And I have other examples I’d love because actually here’s the thing. I’ve actually I’ve sent this survey, by the way, to about 8 or 9 other Protestants were critical of me, and only two of them were willing to answer it.
00:06:38:29 - 00:07:00:10
And I’m grateful that they were they were willing to do that. So giving example. Yes, send it to me. I’ll I’ll check it out. But. Well, I think it’d be I’m really interested to get your take on some of these right here. Well like I said though, trend like the reason why unless there’s a different motive here, the motive is the show sole scripture leads to a moral poverty.
00:07:00:11 - 00:07:28:26
Right. So that’s that’s so this conversation was to be about with what you said in appropriate, not appropriate. And you wanted to justify and respond to your critics. Right. That’s that’s originally what I thought it was. So, so in regards to going down this long line of how you want to try to make soulless Torah inappropriate for your reasoning, I don’t feel that.
00:07:28:28 - 00:07:43:25
It’s not that I’m not in the way trying to dodge it. It’s I don’t feel that’s what the conversation is supposed to be about today. Well, it’s what I would like to talk about because the reason I asked that of Ryan and continue the line of question was it does reveals that whole paradigm leads to the excuse of great.
00:07:43:28 - 00:08:02:23
Like, for example, if I had said to Ryan in the debate, hey, can a Christian be saved if he dismembered and decapitates babies as his job? And Ryan said, I’m not sure if you got and if you guys had said, why would you say something so gross? Pick another example instead of saying, hey Ryan, what’s wrong with you?
00:08:02:24 - 00:08:25:04
Why can’t you say that’s wrong? Right? Well that would that’s the response I would hope for. But that his answer to the question to me reveals this fatal problem with solar scriptura. Right. And I think that there and so that’s why I am not apologetic because in talking about it. I’ve revealed that like this heresy will lead people into grave sins.
00:08:25:08 - 00:08:54:14
How is it to save people? Yeah. So. So is it a heresy? So going back to the. Yeah. No, no. Oh, you think that’s. But also the issue of sodomy, right. Originally what you brought up. Yeah, I said that. I said that anal anal intercourse is gravely disordered, regardless of who you have it with. So. So would that be based upon extra revelation, extra teaching outside of Scripture that you come to that conclusion?
00:08:54:17 - 00:09:16:05
Yeah. Because I can look at the human body, just like I can know that two men engaging in the sexual act is disordered by reason alone. I can know that. And Romans, Romans one even says, you can know by reason alone that that act is disordered, that engaging in anal intercourse between two men. Well, it’s the same act, but with two women.
00:09:16:12 - 00:09:37:18
And it’s very clear that’s also disorder, because that is not what the sexual act is for. So then if you can use that reasoning to deduct that being wrong by just looking at something from observation, then why can I not say marrying your cousin is wrong? Why can you not say that it’s wrong? Yeah, you asked me is that wrong?
00:09:37:23 - 00:10:02:16
And I said, well, because what I knew then you, my God said, oh, it’s not scripture, but but the if we can know certain things by observations you just said, then why am I wrong with what I just said a second ago? What about? About your cousin marriage? Well, I think many people recognize there’s something that’s bad about that, or there’s something that it just shouldn’t be treated as normal as anything else, even though the treats it that way.
00:10:02:17 - 00:10:23:04
So we do what’s right in our own eyes. Correct. Are you referencing the Book of Judges? Sure. Like, in other words, like the last line of judges. Yeah. 2125 or Proverbs 1412. There’s a way that seems right of the man there in the ways of death. I mean, the bottom line is, a lot of us, this is all of us, myself included in you.
00:10:23:10 - 00:10:47:25
A lot of times what we do is we read things or we see things and we base things on our own judgment. And that can be good, that can be bad, that could be right, that could be wrong. So I would like to kind of go back to the point here is I saw a video with you, Trent, where you were actually coming against Jay Dyer, Andrew Wilson, Sam Sharman for their type of language right now.
00:10:47:25 - 00:11:06:22
Granted, it wasn’t a language. No, it was it was there. It was there. The reason. And I’ve heard this criticism from other people. No no no. Let me I understand I just want to clarify. It was a very good idea. I actually watched it this morning and again, to be very clear. And so I liked what you shared because you were addressing the issue of how that they are abusing it.
00:11:06:23 - 00:11:27:23
They’re vulgar, they’re vile, they’re justifying what they’re doing. I know that you’re not trying to do that. I just like to ask you a question, like for Christian conduct and speech. Yeah. Where do we draw the line? How do we know? Like the Bible, you know, you know, the the scriptures that you put in the video. I could easily quote right now so I don’t need to preach to the choir.
00:11:27:28 - 00:11:55:07
Yeah. Where do we draw the line when we’re using our language to convey a point? I think at the very least, my criticism, and this is a point that Dyer himself has still failed to understand. It’s not about using profanity. I have used profanity, I profanity or graphic descriptions. Those are not wrong. My problem with Wilson, Dyer and Shamoon is that they are abusive.
00:11:55:13 - 00:12:29:28
They call people names. They insult them. When I critiqued J online, his response to me was F you. That’s different than just saying f whatever using a fantasy. It’s a it’s a malicious, aggressive curse upon another person. Say f you buddy, that they use a you know, Sam has said metaphorically, I believe, but still that people’s mothers or whores, things like that, they’re abusive insults, but just using graphic descriptions that in many cases is perfectly fine.
00:12:30:00 - 00:12:54:13
The Bible itself does this. For example, let me ask, is this wrong that the prophet Ezekiel said in Ezekiel 2320, comparing Israel’s idolatry to adultery. Saying this, he said she lusted after her lovers whose genitals were like those of donkeys, and whose a mission was like that of horses. Now, do you think that because of that, we shouldn’t let kids read the Bible?
00:12:54:13 - 00:13:13:21
Because they might read that? No. And I’m familiar with a lot of those scriptures as well. And there’s a lot of imagery that’s being portrayed. And obviously it was bringing judgment upon that situation, that scenario. So of course, there’s going to be caution when reading Scripture. There’s going to be guidelines with reading Scripture and of course, reading things in context.
00:13:13:21 - 00:13:31:22
So my point, though, just again, to be very clear again, is there’s a place in a time like, you know, I’ve counseled men, I’m sure you’ve counseled men when it comes to issues of, you know, being a man or being a husband and talking about certain things in the bedroom or things like that. Right. So I understand that.
00:13:31:23 - 00:13:59:14
I get that I’m actually more on your side in that scenario. My issue, though here is, is that I didn’t think, just to be very blunt, I don’t think that that was a good example to try to use in your debate with Ryan. On a Christian losing salvation. There are so many other illustrations or points that if you were trying to press what you wanted to press, that’s that’s my personal opinion.
00:13:59:18 - 00:14:17:02
If I had said a Christian who has if I had said a Christian who has sex with other men, a male Christian who has sex with other men, will he go to heaven? Would you? Would you have complained? Yes, sure. And biblically, that would make sense. But the way. But it’s the same. I said the same thing. Well, but according to you, it is not biblically number one.
00:14:17:02 - 00:14:39:08
That’s number one. Bible doesn’t teach what you claim. That’s number one. Number two, it’s the issue of what is that a way? A good way was questioning during that debate. You could you could refrain and reword things the way I guess it’s just me. It’s kind of like it’s kind of like Romans 14. Trent. I felt and I wasn’t the only one.
00:14:39:08 - 00:15:03:01
So I know that there was many others who felt that type of questioning was not the best way to go about it. Right now you’re here justifying it, right? You’re you’re doubling down and tripling down, saying you didn’t do anything wrong. So you’re here to respond to people like the critics? Yes, I shared originally, like I shared with my with my post, I didn’t disrespect you, I shared, I thought that was inaccurate.
00:15:03:01 - 00:15:26:13
So I’m trying to ask you now is you feel if if if you’re in a scenario and you’re out in public or you’re online and you know that younger ones could potentially be listening, you feel that you can use that type of language and it’s okay. What language do you mean? Can you tell me this is civic words?
00:15:26:18 - 00:15:58:23
Well, like what you talked about before, sodomy between a husband and wife and before those type of acts, right? You’re you’re saying and I would say that I used very clinical language I didn’t use I did not use crude language. I didn’t use slang. I used very clinical language to describe a common evil. I just said intercourse. And I specify the orifice to show that, oh, this is a very common thing that even married couples might do.
00:15:58:24 - 00:16:18:17
So. And I and I thought Ryan would just say, you bite the bullet and be like, yeah, they’ll still go to heaven. Like, okay, good. Another another point for me to show how ludicrous this is. And he did himself no favors by saying, well, I can’t say that that’s wrong and you’re doing the same thing, and you guys are just embarrassed that you have to admit to everybody that that a lot of people are like, you’re okay with, like, there’s nothing.
00:16:18:17 - 00:16:50:14
You think there’s nothing wrong with this kind of disgusting act and just embarrassed. So you in the future when you have debates with people, you if I understand this correctly, you will be using this type of language. Again, talking about these kind of issues. I tell you what, I could try another example. Maybe I could have asked Ryan this and you could ask me, let’s say a Christian trust in Christ, and he marries his ten year old cousin who has gone through precocious puberty and is capable of becoming pregnant.
00:16:50:17 - 00:17:16:22
Can you say ten year old cousin? Yes. Okay. And who’s gone through precocious puberty and can become pregnant with that? You know, with that person still go to heaven? Is that sinful? Well, number one, like we talked about before, God has given us a conscience. Romans chapter two. I believe that we know that God’s law written in our heart, so morally that would be inappropriate.
00:17:16:23 - 00:17:33:06
Wait, where does the Bible say that? God’s law. Right. God’s law is written our hearts. So we talked about before we both. So it’s just what you think in your heart. Each person thinks unto himself, right? So like you said, you can look at a situation and make a judgment, right? So again you laugh. I don’t know why you’re laughing because you’re contradicting yourself.
00:17:33:07 - 00:17:52:07
I’m not going to myself. That’s not a contradiction. This. So you’re you’re using these illustrations to try to poke at Solas. I find that I find it funny though, because this is this is actually I don’t want to. I’m not I’m not going to be rude. I’m going to hold back. But this is not looking good. Okay? For you.
00:17:52:08 - 00:18:07:29
What? Why do you say that? Well, look, can you can you prove to me that it is wrong to marry your ten year old cousin who is capable of becoming pregnant? Can you prove to me it’s okay? No. I asked you, like, do you think that that’s. Do you think that’s wrong? You said it’s wrong according to God’s law.
00:18:08:02 - 00:18:24:05
And I’m saying show me from the Bible where that’s wrong. Like you just asked me. Oldest child. Right? A ten year old’s a child, right? Tends to find the word child. But we have to find out what child is. Now. You don’t know what a child is. Well, we would define a child as someone under the age of 18.
00:18:24:05 - 00:18:42:12
Probably in our modern parlance, that’d be a young adult teenager. A child is like young, right? A child is a child. Do you think? Do you think a 16 year old is a child? No, that’s a young. That’s a young adult. As a teenager, okay. Is a 15 year old a child? Oh, we’re going to play that game now.
00:18:42:13 - 00:18:59:29
How far are we going to go down. Right. Yeah. Because of a 15 year old is not a child. Then it shouldn’t be sinful for a 30 year old man to have sex with a 15 year old. Right. Because we go by. Yeah. You go by state. By state. What age? A man can have a relationship with a young girl, I got it.
00:19:00:00 - 00:19:20:20
Here’s. Here’s what. Here’s my problem. What you’re saying, Trent, you’re using illustrations to try to justify your means of attacking, which I understand that point. But again, this is still escaping the fact of how we conduct ourselves with conduct. That’s why I’m talking to you today, right? It’s like I’m saying, okay, I want to come up. Okay, fine.
00:19:20:20 - 00:19:49:08
I’m going to come up with different questions to ask in the future to show. So in other words, you think you could have reworded your questions maybe differently with what you asked Ryan in how you approached it? Or are you content with how you did it and justify it, and feel that you could ask the same exact question in the future to someone in a debate?
00:19:49:13 - 00:20:06:12
Oh, that’s why I want to know from you. Yeah, I’m perfectly fine. I use clinical language to describe a very common evil, and the embarrassment is because I think many Protestants recognize this is wrong, and they would use a similar appeal to you, like it’s just against God’s law. Somebody let me know. Let me finish. Let me finish what?
00:20:06:14 - 00:20:24:08
So let me finish. Let me finish. And some people replied to my email survey of this who are Protestant, who said anal intercourse, you know, husband and wife is wrong because it goes against God’s design. But they couldn’t cite a scripture verse for that, so they disagreed with you. They do think it’s sinful, but they could they couldn’t provide a verse.
00:20:24:11 - 00:21:04:14
I said that earlier on. Trent, I said this, this will have a divide on both sides. That’s that’s why I said from the start. People are going to have a certain view on this particular topic already. Here’s where the here’s where. The funny thing, if you want to start laughing for a second, is there’s no justification to claim that a husband and wife, what they do behind closed doors consensually, where if they want to do other things, they want to rub each other on their elbows, they want to rub their boobs on whatever her boobs or whatever, like between a husband and wife, what they’re doing at home, if it’s not abuse and it’s consensual,
00:21:04:16 - 00:21:20:14
okay, there’s nothing that scripture says that’s wrong. Now again, be very clear. I’ve never done this. I don’t have to plan on doing it. And I’m not saying I’m actually even saying that this is something I would recommend. I’m just trying to say to you, you were saying this is sodomy, and that’s why you try to press Ryan on.
00:21:20:14 - 00:21:49:13
I’m pressing you on this. Now, why do you assert so definitively that a husband and wife who has this type of physical relationship, that this is sodomy? When the Bible talks about that being men with men, I don’t care what you call it, that you shouldn’t be men shouldn’t be climaxing in people’s anuses, whoever owns them. According to Trent Horn, according to natural law, according to according to the teaching of Christ, one holy Catholic, apostolic church.
00:21:49:13 - 00:22:08:05
And just from what reason alone, as Paul says in Romans, one should just be obvious even to people who weren’t given the rich. Sure. And Romans one is very clear women with women, men with men. It doesn’t say anything about what you claim, right. But it says there are things that we can know, even by reason alone, and we can know by reason alone, even beyond homosexuality or idolatry, things that are just wrong.
00:22:08:05 - 00:22:31:10
Even someone who’s not Christian can recognize the natural law. So as you’re saying, if it’s a husband and wife there in their bedroom, I should but out if the Bible doesn’t say anything. So from your perspective, then a husband engaging in anal intercourse with his 14 year old wife. There’s nothing in the Bible to say that’s wrong. Correct?
00:22:31:12 - 00:22:49:07
You just keep on pushing. I’m. I’m just sitting here in amazement, to be quite frank with you. So I just asked a question. Can you help me understand your position between a husband and wife and the wife’s four and the wise 14 years old, I don’t know. Is that going to be some kind of physical conditions? What you’re going to bring up here?
00:22:49:07 - 00:23:09:21
I’m just curious. Like, I don’t know if the what matters is she’s 14 or 18. What’s the difference? Well, because you have no grounds to say marrying a 14 year old or a ten year old is wrong because the Bible never says what the minimum age for marriage is. Sure, sure, there are certain. So it could be ten years old, right?
00:23:09:25 - 00:23:31:20
One second, one second. So here’s the thing, Trent. Even though I have much disagreement with the Roman Catholic Church, official teachings on many, many things. Okay. And you like to point out. So there’s a zillion heresies in the Roman Catholic Church, okay. However, that being said, there are traditions which I respect. Right? And the tradition is not a bad thing.
00:23:31:26 - 00:23:53:06
Traditions can be good things. So when we’re talking about this here, I want to point out about Romans 14, when Paul is confronting these people who are saying, well, you shouldn’t eat meat. Some people are saying only vegetables. Some people are saying you worship on one day. Some people that you worship every day, like Paul is addressing this and they are stumbling blocks, right?
00:23:53:08 - 00:24:19:29
He then says, well, whatever is not a faith is sin. Now that is either true or it’s not. Now if it’s between a husband and wife and if they’re, you know, doing something, things together, whatever it may be in this case, what we’re talking about and it’s not for them abusive or ruin their lives or some type of whatever that’s going against their consensual type of, you know, between a husband and wife.
00:24:20:01 - 00:24:42:01
Why is that a sin is what I want to know. I keep answering the question and you just don’t want to accept it. It violates God’s design for our sexual powers. What? Where does it say that? Where does it say that? Where does it say it? It says it in natural reason. Where’s the church? How do you know it violates God’s?
00:24:42:08 - 00:25:09:24
Where does it teach that? At sea. If you’re. If your heart is just hardened, I’m not going to be able to get through to you on that. So, I mean, just doing the same thing you did to me, little Argo. If you’re going to make a assertion, where’s it at? Okay, I it’s not explicitly in Scripture, but that is precisely my point is that nearly everyone recognizes there are many things that are gravely evil that are not explicit in Scripture, and yet we condemn them, which shows not everything that is wrong is explicitly in Scripture.
00:25:09:24 - 00:25:29:29
And so this version of soil scriptura should be rejected. And so I want clarity from you because you can give me clarity in my previous question. What you’re saying you’re saying I should butt out if it’s a husband and wife and whatever. So if it’s a husband and I gave of his his 14 year old wife or let’s say his ten year old wife, ten year old wife, you regret tenure like that?
00:25:30:00 - 00:25:46:20
That doesn’t even sound reasonable within. Where does the Bible say that’s wrong? It doesn’t say that. But like like like we’ve both agreed it’s common sense, right? Like you don’t marry. Where does it say that? Where does. Where does it say that? How many times I got to say it doesn’t say that. But we know that to be true from what God’s revealed in our hearts.
00:25:46:22 - 00:26:00:28
See? And why can’t I say the same thing about anal intercourse, husband? Because that’s for you. But what about someone else who says it’s okay? What about someone else who thinks it’s okay to marry a ten year old? Okay, agreed. So how do we how do you think they should just be like, yeah, that’s good for you. That’s what you think.
00:26:01:02 - 00:26:17:13
How do we come to a conclusion? Is it the Roman Catholic Church, the living, the living teaching authority of Christ Church, the living teaching authority of Christ? So prove to me the Roman Catholic Church is the authority. I have done that in my books. That has been done by many other apologists. I go prove it now. Why don’t you move it now?
00:26:17:17 - 00:26:33:22
Because I don’t have to, I don’t. I’ve already done that. You can go check out my book. You can read that go by and many of the things there. Yeah. I’ll send it to you for free about this. I will never remember. I proposed to in our email, which I hope you’re still willing to do. I propose two topics talking about the papacy or the immediate conception.
00:26:33:23 - 00:26:50:28
Let’s have a debate on the papacy. If you if what you’re saying today is so right and so true, then you should have no problem debating the papacy. And if what you’re saying is true about the Bible, do you think the Bible, the Bible is sufficient? Can you answer that, though? Do you? Would you agree to do the debate on that?
00:26:50:29 - 00:27:09:11
It depends. Not every not every truth claim is conducive to a debate. If the opponents are too far apart from one another, there can be too many subjects to cover within the limited format of a debate, however you think. Do you believe that the Bible. That’s a no. Do you believe that? I haven’t decided yet. I need to look at the resolution.
00:27:09:11 - 00:27:30:10
But do you believe that the Bible is sufficient to guide us in the moral life for doctrine and practice? Life? Yes. That’s what Sola essentially teaches. Sure. Okay, so then you want to have a debate on Sola instead. Would that make you feel more comfortable? We can debate whether you want or we can just talk. You could just answer my questions.
00:27:30:10 - 00:27:49:17
I don’t think it’s that hard. If what and what am I not answered? Okay. So. All right. So. So you’re saying that marrying a ten year old precocious puberty that is sinful, but it’s not in the Bible, so that’s just your position. Same thing with you. You asserted it is. Yeah, but. But I don’t believe in Scripture. That’s not a problem for me.
00:27:49:17 - 00:28:06:02
It’s problem for you. Oh, here’s another one. This because I asked. I asked you had him on the show Taco Talks. Yeah. Do you think a married man masturbating while thinking about his wife on a business trip is that sinful?
00:28:06:05 - 00:28:23:14
What’s really funny is I knew you were going to bring this up. So what’s your answer? So between a husband and wife. So say someone is in, I don’t know, let’s say, let’s say they’re living in Mexico and somebody is in Canada. Is that what we’re saying? And their long distance away from each other? Yeah. He’s on a business trip.
00:28:23:14 - 00:28:41:20
He’s been gone for like a week. Business trip. And it’s between a husband and wife. And you’re saying that they’re thinking about each other, but they can’t be with you other physically. They’re not thinking of another woman. They’re not doing pornography. They’re not committing physical adultery. Right. But because it can’t be with you and they want to do this kind of physical act.
00:28:41:25 - 00:29:00:29
You’re asking me if that’s okay? Yeah. Is that sinful? I don’t see any reason why that would be considered sin. Okay, so as the kids would say, you have no problem with goofing under some circumstances. Sure. I don’t know what Güney means, but it’s a question. Let me ask you a question. Why is that a sin? Why is that a sin?
00:29:01:05 - 00:29:21:23
If it’s between a husband and wife and it’s consensual and they’re not fornicating with another woman or man, they’re not committing adultery. They’re not doing pornography. Why is that a sin? Oh, well, that’s funny what you mentioned about pornography. Where does the Bible say that creating pornography is wrong? We know there’s a Greek word that tends to lean towards pornography.
00:29:21:24 - 00:29:40:00
You know, there’s the word. There’s the word Pawnee. Yeah, but but. Yeah, from from there. Yeah. Well, there’s an example of husband and wife. They put a video of themselves having sex on the internet for other people to see. Now we’re talking about a video. Yeah, they post that online. Where does the Bible say that’s wrong? Wait a minute.
00:29:40:00 - 00:30:01:26
You just said it between them being long. Just. Yeah. You said that’s you. You said that isn’t wrong and fine that you don’t. Please don’t do that. Don’t do that. Stay what we’re saying. You’re talking about someone being over here and someone way over there, long distance. And it’s a husband and wife and their somehow going to have some type of physical whatever with each other long distance.
00:30:01:26 - 00:30:26:26
But it’s with each other somehow. They’re not fornicating. Not sleeping around. I’m asking a question. If you’re asserting that sin, why is that a sin? Because that’s not what our sexual powers are for. God gave us the sexual act to be a full and faithful gift between one another. Not to simply use, as in our genitals are not made simply to be personal orgasm machines.
00:30:27:00 - 00:30:43:08
Okay, so that’s that’s where you’re coming from, right? But that’s nothing you can find from that. That would say that is a direct violation of a couple in the Bible. Correct. And honestly, there’s a lot of Protestants who agree with you. They see nothing wrong with masturbation. There are a lot of Catholics who also agree with me as well.
00:30:43:08 - 00:31:02:23
So what’s your point? Yeah, but they would be contradicting what the church actually teaches. Well. So we have a standard you don’t okay. Your standard is just whatever people kind of interpret from the Bible. So what I’m basically saying Trent and I get what you’re saying I do get I actually do get trying to do I get it and you got some points.
00:31:02:23 - 00:31:30:18
I don’t I’m not disagreeing. I’m not disagreeing. The bottom line for what I’m trying to talk about today, when I talk to people, I try to be very aware of what I share, the audience that I’m around like today, like this is obviously it’s very adult. It’s very clear everyone’s here. So I’m talking like this. But when I’m around certain people, other people, younger people online, whatever it may be, I’m trying to be also aware of how I can do it myself.
00:31:30:19 - 00:31:50:19
That’s where I’m coming. That’s that’s my personal conviction. If your conviction is you feel it’s okay that you can talk the way you’ve done, then you feel that you can talk the way like that way in the future. That’s your conviction. Well, that’s on you. How could I ask Ryan? How could I? So I wanted to know. My question was, there was a certain act that’s common anal intercourse between spouses.
00:31:50:19 - 00:32:12:11
And I wanted to know from Ryan’s perspective, could you engage in that habitually and still go to heaven? I really didn’t want to know. How could you ask me that question? Why don’t you ask me that question? Well, I think I already did. And you said that that people can. That it’s not sinful. No, no. So you asked Ryan about the issue of habitual sin, and the Bible warns about habitual sin.
00:32:12:11 - 00:32:34:25
Galatians chapter five. Those who practice this are in danger of not inheriting eternal life. That’s what Paul contrast of the flesh versus walking the spirit. So talking about sin, there is a warning there. So I would not say if someone’s living in a lifestyle of sin, continually doing this and then even claiming it is okay, that they’re automatically be saved, I would actually be considering that person may not be saved.
00:32:34:28 - 00:32:55:06
No, no. My question was how could I that the act was habitual anal? But do you see how I answered your question? See, I answered it directly. No, you didn’t answer it at all. You’ve contradicted yourself because you believe. Try again. Okay, so the act of anal intercourse between a husband and wife, you believe that is not sinful, correct?
00:32:55:08 - 00:33:14:10
According to the Bible, there’s no that’s not sodomy. And there’s no justification to say that it is sin. So then habitually engaging in that act would not be sinful. Then if that is not a sin, then sure. Okay. Now, if it is a sin which you haven’t been able to prove, then I would grant that. Okay, so that’s why how could I?
00:33:14:11 - 00:33:44:14
So you didn’t like the language I use? How could I have asked Ryan about this habitual act of anal intercourse in husbands and wives? Will those people still go to heaven? How could I have asked Ryan that in a way that you would not have been offended? You could said something, I don’t know, maybe the act of someone who claims to be a Christian who is living in a gay lifestyle in acts of homosexuality, and they claim to believe in Jesus.
00:33:44:14 - 00:34:02:02
Would that person go to heaven? That’s one way you could have framed it. But that’s not what I asked because I wasn’t asking. I’m saying you could have framed it, but that. But that the reason. But if I had framed it that way, that’s not the act I was asking about. I wasn’t asking, as you assert, because you assert sodomy is being a husband and wife, which is wrong.
00:34:02:05 - 00:34:22:28
Well, I was asking about that because most people who claim to be Christian and hold to Ryan’s view are not engaged engaging in homosexual acts. That would be irrelevant to my question. I’m asking about people who may listen to Ryan and engage in people listen to Ryan. Do they engage in acts of anal sex? Well, you said it’s not sinful, right?
00:34:23:01 - 00:34:43:20
No, but I’m saying you’re assuming that. How do you how do you assume that’s not the homosexual thing? Why do you make that assumption? Why do I assume that people listening to Ryan or probably not homosexuals? Yeah. You assume Ryan is a conservative evangelical who denounces homosexuality, so I’m pretty sure he probably doesn’t have that many people of that persuasion following him.
00:34:43:24 - 00:35:00:23
But he probably has many married husbands and wives who may engage in acts of anal intercourse. How do you know that? Why do you assume that that’s a that’s a that’s a very bad assertion to assume that. Why is it a bad assertion? You said the act isn’t sinful. No, but you’re assuming you’re assuming that you’re assuming that that’s a judge mental thing.
00:35:00:24 - 00:35:20:08
Should I assume that Ryan has many followers who engage in married acts of vaginal intercourse? How do you how would you even assume? I would never even assume something like that? Why would you assume that? I can’t assume people are married. What? Most people who listen. Listen on. Yeah. What is going on, Trent? What? Most people. Yeah. What is happening?
00:35:20:10 - 00:35:45:28
Most people who watch. Ryan. If you look at TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, who are they? Their younger people to the younger generation, do you even watch them on TikTok? Most people are young over there. Why would you assume they’re all mostly married people? Well, I don’t know if and we were we weren’t on TikTok. We were on a I know, YouTube, but I’m just saying his audience, we weren’t a crowd.
00:35:46:00 - 00:36:08:24
Well, well, we were on a YouTube channel and my in the YouTube audience tends to be older, but I’m sure I didn’t say most. I said many, many would refer to a substantial number of people. There’s probably a fair number I don’t think everybody listens to. Ryan is unmarried. Even if they were unmarried. It’s not scandalous to talk to an unmarried person about the ethics of vaginal intercourse and marriage.
00:36:08:26 - 00:36:32:08
Right? Bottom line. So. And then to say that it’s immoral to engage in anal intercourse in marriage, don’t you think teenagers should be told that certain kinds of intercourse are immoral? Yeah, that should be done by their parents, right? I can’t just tell them that. Can I tell teenagers that you’re there, dad? Can I tell them intercourse outside of marriage is evil?
00:36:32:11 - 00:36:51:11
If you have the proper way to do it. Some, you know, like in regards to having that right or the authority or the openness with someone. Sure. Absolutely. If you have that consent. Absolutely. You know, we speak into people’s lives all the time. My point here is you’re making a lot and you make a lot of assumptions here.
00:36:51:11 - 00:37:35:01
And it’s just that’s what’s baffling to me. Now again, you’re going to stay where you’re at. I get it. And I do, at least in that regard, respect you for that. But I just I find this the most this whole conversation is you’re still so firm on what you shared that was okay, not a problem. And you’re still so firm that sodomy, by definition you believe is between can be a husband and wife committing this act when there’s no historical record before the time of Christ with the Jewish people, not in the Old Testament during the time of the apostles, or even the early Church Fathers, early on, this being an actual sin of husband
00:37:35:01 - 00:37:57:01
and wife. But you want to assert that it is. That’s what baffles me. Well, I’m just I’m just giving the example. I was just asking a question and I would say, by the way, I would go back. I’m just trying to go through some notes here, but I but the thing is, yes, we can find this even within the church.
00:37:57:02 - 00:38:14:11
Fathers, when you look at Christmas, when you look at Clement of Alexandria and Chris, some also I think Christian would be a firm mention of this long before the 13. They talk about men with men. They don’t talk about anal sex with the husband and wife. They talk about contraception. And so contraception at that time would not be a hormonal pill.
00:38:14:12 - 00:38:37:14
It would be doing engaging in the sexual act, knowing that conception will be impossible because of how you’ve engaged in it. And so for these people, there’d be a very limited number of ways to do that. And anal and oral intercourse would be one of those ways. And they condemned that. They condemned it because it was it was it was contraceptive and an attack on the life giving process itself.
00:38:37:14 - 00:39:02:01
So it’s long before the 13th century. Okay. How about this? I think we both have said our piece. Trent, I don’t think we need to keep going back and forth on what we have both shared. I want to end on a good note of respect in that regard. You shared your piece. You’ve come to respond to me and other people as well and let the audience make their decisions.
00:39:02:04 - 00:39:19:05
I appreciate you coming up with about an hour like we talked about. So I don’t want to force anything upon that. So it seems like because I asked you, what could I have asked Ryan? There was a certain act, the act of anal intercourse between husband and wife. How could I have? Because it seems to me, and you may correct me if I’m wrong.
00:39:19:06 - 00:39:49:02
There’s no way I could have. That’s a forbidden question. I’m just not allowed to ask him about that act, because the substitute question you gave me was a totally different act about homosexuality. That wasn’t my question. So it seems to me, from my perspective, is that there are just certain things a person should not ask about. So whether it’s moral or immoral, and I think the reason for that is, is because those questions reveal the fault and perils of solar scriptura.
00:39:49:07 - 00:40:11:08
You would have just simply worded this way if you would have said something to the effect of like you between do you believe that this act between a husband and wife is a sin? Off with that. What act will the act of what you’ve been talking about? No, no, because if I had, said, Ryan, this act between a husband and wife, is that a sin?
00:40:11:08 - 00:40:28:16
He’d be like, what act are you talking about? Do I have to spell out the word that we’ve been talking about every single time? Do you have to hear me say anal sex like, a thousand times? Does that get you excited or something? Like, we know what we’re talking about. Okay, so is that sin between a husband and wife, right?
00:40:28:17 - 00:40:50:13
Here’s the thing. If if I had just said that’s the question you ask him is, is oral sex a sin between a husband wife? That’s how you could ask it. And then if you can. Okay. So if I said anal sex instead of anal intercourse, you can define that as a sin. Then you say is the act of continually doing that going to keep somebody from being saved.
00:40:50:13 - 00:41:08:10
But you have to first prove your assertion. No, I just I just asked him the question then and then he was fair to say it’s it’s not sinful and people can judge and then people are free to judge from that. So you’re saying, if I had said anal sex instead of anal intercourse, you wouldn’t have cared. No, no.
00:41:08:13 - 00:41:28:29
The fact that you asserted not only the language that you use, I just thought was still inappropriate, number one. But if you’re going to say, how would you work? I’d say, look, if we’re talking about it, is the act of a husband and wife having intimacy from behind. Right? Reward it. I don’t know, I’m just how I’m trying to reward.
00:41:29:01 - 00:41:46:00
Because you can. You can have that. That’s still. I need to stay in the word. You need to hear the word. That’s really crazy. I can’t believe it. No. So. No. Because. Because you have to use euphemisms to hide your perverted soul. Scripture morality. You have to use euphemisms. It’s called trying to be mature and respectful. That’s what it’s called.
00:41:46:01 - 00:42:01:14
Okay, that’s what I’m trying to using. You don’t know how to do that. You don’t have to do the Bible. It’s called using the Bible alone to cover up the fact that you’re unable to condemn things that most people deep in their hearts, no, it’s wrong. And that’s why they were. That’s why they were mad. I asked about it in the first place.
00:42:01:16 - 00:42:20:00
Then prove it to sin. You can’t prove it to sin. I can’t prove it. He was just in your heart to heart. Just. Just like that. Just like the people who find a natural law appeals to my heart to be wrong. Okay? Because if it’s not in the Bible, you won’t believe. Because you’re just like, clear what we see.
00:42:20:01 - 00:42:37:25
Sin is sin. So if you’re going to assert that it’s actually sin and and it hasn’t been condemned by Old Testament Jewish people, wasn’t condemned by Jesus. The apostles won them even early on with the early church fathers. I’ll even grant that as actually an active and husband and wife. And then I don’t know what to tell you.
00:42:38:00 - 00:43:01:16
So your position would be that it is not sinful for a 30 year old man to engage in anal intercourse with his ten year old precocious puberty, doing the stupid thing. Now you’re being done with a ten year old we’re talking about because, because, because it’s not as we’re talking about husband. Let’s talk about a 30 year old and a 30 year old or a 30 year old, and you want to change it because.
00:43:01:16 - 00:43:19:12
No, because Scripture can’t help you here. Now you’re really showing. Where does the Bible say it’s wrong? I believe it’s now I’m going to start calling you out. Okay. That’s being really inappropriate. Talking about where does the Bible in a 30 year old. Just kidding me. Are you kidding? Are you kidding me? Can I finish? Are you kidding me?
00:43:19:13 - 00:43:37:11
So you’re doing the same thing the dyer does when he gets flustered in the day and talks over the. Well, I’m asking you, like why? Let’s just talk maturely. Where is anal sex between a mature couple, husband and wife? If you’re going to assert this, where is that a sin? Can you prove it? Or to answer that question.
00:43:37:11 - 00:43:55:12
And so your position and the thing is, instead of just saying, you could just say to me, you know what, Trent? Yeah, I do not think it is sinful for adult man to be married to a ten year old and engage in anal intercourse. Yeah. I don’t believe this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don’t believe a 30 year old should be married to a ten year old.
00:43:55:13 - 00:44:08:19
Yeah. No. Oh, you believe it is sinful? I don’t believe that would be appropriate. Yeah, I don’t think that would be right. Absolutely. So it’s a sin? Yeah. Whatever is not a faith is a sin. I don’t believe that is. Where does the where does the Bible doesn’t say it? We’ve already went round and round on this, Trent.
00:44:08:19 - 00:44:28:11
We’ve already went over this. So some things are gravely sinful that aren’t in the Bible. There’s some things that are conscience will tell us yes, that are not right, that God has given us a conscience. Right? Obviously, a ten year old is a child. Number one, a ten year old can’t produce proper babies. Number two, I said, I’m not a doctor.
00:44:28:12 - 00:44:47:14
I said, precocious puberty. So you’re making a ball. You’re making a ball excuse to try to justify your means. Their point here is we know adults get married when they’re adults, right? That’s how it normally works. So again, you’re so you’ve been able not been able to prove your with the permission of a judge in some states kind of can prove it to me.
00:44:47:14 - 00:45:06:19
This is sodomy number two. You can’t prove that this is a sin. And number three, you’re still justifying your language. And then you smile about it, which is hilarious. Language. What? What inappropriate language did I use? I asked about a particular act, a particular kind of marriage. And I just wanted you to tell me if it was sinful.
00:45:06:19 - 00:45:22:06
You said it is sinful. I agree with you. But the problem is what did I say was sinful? What did I say with sinful? Being married to an adult, being married to a ten year old? You said that was okay. Yeah. To be clear, yeah, I don’t think that would be right. Correct. That’s my problem. I don’t see any chapter and verse.
00:45:22:07 - 00:45:43:12
I don’t believe that would be appropriate. How how it would be, yes. And you believe? Well, look, God told me in my conscience this is wrong. And that’s why you believe it’s wrong. Well, when I look at Scripture, it talks about a husband and wife being one. They leave their father and mother. There’s a certain kind of guidelines that give us indication that there’s going to be a young adult, not a child.
00:45:43:14 - 00:46:07:14
Okay, so could it be a 14 year old wife like Mary when she was young? What are you trying to say? Yeah, sure. Yeah, sure. 13. 14? Sure. How about 12 again? Come on. Trent 12. Just 12 year old. We’ve already went through that. I don’t what the actual age. Age. But we’re talking a young adult, not a child.
00:46:07:16 - 00:46:29:25
Right. You’re saying? So where does all this stuff? This is just your opinion. Of course. Now. Well, not. Not necessarily according to stand and correctly, Jewish culture and law, a young man is at the age of 13 or 14. Right. When is the when is a woman become a young woman? I don’t know it probably, I believe around the age of 14 as well.
00:46:29:26 - 00:46:56:00
I believe around the age of 14 as well. This is going by memory. All right. Here’s the point. Let’s let’s move past that and conclude. You have shared you’ve come here. You want to defend your self against critics. You wanted to assert what you believe you shared with Ryan was justified. And that’s fair. And I respect that. I don’t agree, but I respect that, you have your reasons, what you believe.
00:46:56:02 - 00:47:22:02
I don’t agree with those. And that’s why you came up today. And I want to end on a good note, having a good, respectful conversation with you. I thank you for coming over here to do share your views. Sure. I will send you the full survey. You can you can fill it out at your leisure. But I will continue to ask defenders of solar scriptura about whether certain actions are moral or immoral.
00:47:22:02 - 00:47:42:17
And I think the answers that I get will be indicative about the fatal problems of solar scriptura. And I will not be will not be pressured by people who use tone policing language to try to keep me from asking what are very valid questions? Well, you have that right. You have that right. All right.
00:47:42:20 - 00:47:58:20
Thank you guys so much for watching. And remember, I’ll be releasing a longer episode on the moral problems of solo scriptura in a few weeks, so stay tuned for that. If you want to help us keep creating great episodes, then please visit us at Trenton and support us for as little as $5 a month or you get access to bonus content.
00:47:58:21 - 00:48:01:27
Thank you guys so much and I hope you have a very blessed day.