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How can the Catholic Church teach that our justification is a process when the Letter to the Romans says that our justification is a one-time event? Karlo Broussard can’t help himself, he just has to keep meeting Protestant challenges to Catholic belief.
Cy Kellett:
What does it take to get right with God? Karlo Broussard next. Hello and welcome to Focus, the Catholic Answers podcast for living, understanding and defending the Catholic faith. Please, don’t forget to subscribe to Focus at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. That way you’ll be notified when a new one is released and you can give us that five star rating or review to help us grow the podcast.
This week, all Christians will agree that Christ makes it possible for us to be restored to proper relationship with God. We call that process or event being justified. We all agree that Christ can do this for us so long as we have faith in Him. But how does this happen? Is it a one-time event or an ongoing process?
In general, Catholic Christians will think of justification as an ongoing process while Protestant Christians will emphasize justification as a one-time event. Our guest Karlo Broussard tackles this debate in his book Meeting the Protestant Challenge. Answering 50 Biblical Objections to Catholic Beliefs.
So we asked him to explain to us and to defend the Catholic position and he agreed to do that. In the book, he makes reference to the story of Abraham’s justification by faith as an example of the Catholic view, which is a little different. A lot of Protestants will be used to that in justifying the Protestant view, but we didn’t have time to discuss Abraham this time. So if you want to get that part of Karlo’s explanation, you have to buy the book.
So Karlo, when I asked you about these things, I have the great advantage of the fact that you write them out for me. So I don’t want to ever deceive the listener like I’m brilliant and I came up with this. But here’s the basic set up for you. According to us Catholics, there’s different stages of justification. In the Council of Trent it talks about us being justified and made friends and domestics of God. I really like that language.
And so the Council then recognizes an initial stage of justification, but the Council goes on to say that you can increase in the justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified through the observance of the commandments of God and the church. And the Council goes on to say, this is the Council of Trent, faith cooperating with good works is part of that.
Karlo Broussard:
Increase in justice.
Cy Kellett:
Increase in justice. Yep. And so then Protestants will say this idea of an increase in justice or further justification contradicts the Bible and specifically Romans 5:1. “Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” So how can we comport the church’s sense that justification is in the past but also in the present and the future?
Karlo Broussard:
Correct.
Cy Kellett:
It continues with this idea from Saint Paul in Romans that since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God.
Karlo Broussard:
Yeah. And to even go a little further, our Protestant friends will appeal to the Greek there, dikaioo [Greek 00:02:56] for we are justified, which could literally be translated as we have been justified, emphasizing that past sense of justification. And then also, too, our Protestant friends will argue that Paul in Romans 5:1 is talking about our past justification within the context of drawing the parallel between our justification and Abraham’s justification.
So for example, in Romans 4:3 that’s where Paul quotes Genesis 15:6, “Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” So our Protestant friends will say, “Well, just as Abraham was justified by his faith so too, we are justified when we have faith in Christ.” And the assumption is that Abraham was justified once. So when we are justified, we’re justified once.
I have been justified in the past when I had faith in Christ. And so my justification is a one-time event of the past. And that would seem to contradict what the Catholic church teaches namely that justification is not restricted to a one-time event in the past, but has this ongoing and even future dimension to it.
Cy Kellett:
So just for the person who uses contemporary language, why do I care about being justified? Justified means what?
Karlo Broussard:
To be in a right, ordered relationship with God.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. So we all want that.
Karlo Broussard:
We all want that.
Cy Kellett:
So I just want to make sure because that can sound a little bit abstract.
Karlo Broussard:
To be in right, good standing with God.
Cy Kellett:
What puts me in good standing with God? The Protestant will say, “Well, it’s that past acceptance of Jesus Christ.”
Karlo Broussard:
Correct.
Cy Kellett:
And the Catholic would say, “It is that past acceptance of Jesus Christ, but it’s also an ongoing process in which you must continue to cooperate.”
Karlo Broussard:
That is correct.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. All right. So how do we answer the Protestant objection?
Karlo Broussard:
Yeah, well, what I point out in my book Meeting the Protestant Challenge, and by the way, this challenge comes from my book, my new book Meeting the Protestant Challenge. How to Answer 50 Biblical Objections to Catholic Beliefs. And what I point out in the book is this. Paul can’t mean that justification is a one-time completed action of the past because elsewhere he teaches that there are multiple stages to justification.
So consider this, Cy, in Romans 3:23, Paul teaches that justification does indeed have an ongoing present dimension to it. He says, “Since all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God,” that’s a favorite passage of our Protestant friends, right, in reference to Mary’s sinlessness.
Cy Kellett:
Mary, right.
Karlo Broussard:
Verse 24, he says, “They were justified by His grace as a gift through the redemption, which is in Christ Jesus.” But in the Greek there in verse 24, it literally reads, They were being justified by His grace as a gift.” It’s a present participle there for justification, the verb justify.
So that would indicate an ongoing dimension, a present dimension of justification. Well, wait a minute. How can they be in a state of being justified if they’ve already been justified in the complete sense in the past, right? That would be unintelligible, right?
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Karlo Broussard:
But we can go even further as I point out in my book that Paul teaches there is a future dimension of our justification, which does not make sense on this account of justification being a one-time event in the past. Consider Romans 2:13, here is what Paul writes. “For it is not hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.” Notice the future tense of justification there. Who will be justified.
And we also have the idea or the concept of cooperating with God’s grace in doing the law, right? Of living in harmony with the commandments of God and that being a constituting element of our righteousness, right? Not only now, but also in the future, a future dimension of justification, that we persevere in doing the law so that we can be justified at the end of our lives when we stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
Now, here is a couple of more. Romans 6:16 is another one. Paul juxtaposes sin and obedience. And he teaches that obedience, “Leads to righteousness.” [Greek 00:07:39] Dikaioo being that root, the word there for justification. So notice how Paul is speaking of obedience leading to righteousness and he’s writing to already born again Christians. He’s writing to Christians in Rome who have already been justified initially when they came into that initial saving relationship with Christ.
But yet here, he’s speaking to these saved Christians talking about, “Hey, you need to obey, avoid sin and that obedience is going to lead to righteousness.” Well, how can it lead to righteousness if you’re already righteous? Apparently there’s different dimensions or aspect of this justifying relationship with God, right? A past dimension. Yes. But according to Paul, also a future dimension. And I’ll share a couple more with you. Okay?
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
Galatians 5:5, Paul writes this, “For through the spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness,” right? And the Greek there is dikaioo [ [Greek 00:08:44]. Well, what is hope? Hope is to-
Cy Kellett:
Stubbornly looking forward.
Karlo Broussard:
Desire, look forward to that which you do not yet possess. Right?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
So there is some aspect of justification that the Christians in Galatia-
Cy Kellett:
Don’t have yet.
Karlo Broussard:
Do not possess, right? There’s some aspect of justification that connotes the future rather than it being restricted to the past. And finally, even Paul himself, check this out. In 1 Corinthians 4:4 he’s now talking about himself and he says, “I’m not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.” And the Greek there for acquitted is [Greek 00:00:09:25], related to dikaioo, justification.
He’s literally saying I’m not thereby justified. Well, wait a minute, Paul, you’re a born again, Christian. You believe, you’ve confessed Christ. You’ve been initially justified.
Cy Kellett:
How can you say you’re not-
Karlo Broussard:
You’re not thereby justified? Right. It’s the Lord who judges me. So even Paul referring to himself understands that there is some future aspect of our justification. So what we see in Paul’s writings is that justification is not a one-time event of the past, but there are different aspects to it. It having a present dimension, we’re continuing in this right relationship with God, of course, by God’s grace. And we look forward to that final dimension of justification when we are finally justified, of course, by God’s grace. Right? Yeah.
And this is very important, Cy, especially in conversation with our Protestant friends who will teach or believe what is known as the imputed righteousness of Christ, right? Because the reason why many of our Protestant friends, now this is a little bit beyond what I articulate in the book here. So there’s a little line [inaudible 00:10:35] bonus for you, right?
The reason why many of our Protestant friends teach that justification is a one-time event in the past is because they believe that the ground of our justification, the ground of our being in a right relationship with God is what they refer to as the imputed righteousness of Christ. Right. So our account is credited with Christ’s righteousness and it’s His righteousness that serves as the ground for my righteousness, not that I’d become righteous, but that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to me so that I am thereby justified.
Well, if that is the case, if the imputed righteousness of Christ, well then, of course it follows from that that justification would be a one-time event.
Cy Kellett:
Because He’s got plenty of it, He’s got plenty of righteousness.
Karlo Broussard:
There would be no need for this continuation. There would be no need for these multiple stages or aspects of justification because it would be complete. It would be perfect. There would be no increase in that justice, no looking forward to that justice because it’s imputed to us.
Cy Kellett:
Right, right.
Karlo Broussard:
And it’s a one-time event and is completed and is done with, right. But notice this. St. Paul taught us that justification is not a one-time event. It’s an ongoing process. So in as much as Saint Paul is teaching us that justification is not a one-time event in the past, but an ongoing process with a future dimension, from that it follows that justification is not by the imputed righteousness of Christ. So consider this syllogism.
Cy Kellett:
I got you. Okay. I think I’m following you. Go ahead.
Karlo Broussard:
If the imputed righteousness of Christ, then justification is a one-time event.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. If that’s how I’m made righteous, by the imputation of Christ’s righteousness onto me then-
Karlo Broussard:
It’s a one-time time event.
Cy Kellett:
Boom.
Karlo Broussard:
Boom. But premise two, Paul teaches us that justification is not a one-time event in the past.
Cy Kellett:
Explain that again. Okay. So all that you just went over.
Karlo Broussard:
Everything that we just went over.
Cy Kellett:
Right, our being-
Karlo Broussard:
Paul’s thing is-
Cy Kellett:
Justified in all those things.
Karlo Broussard:
That’s right. Being justified. We hope to be justified, the hope of righteousness.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. So Paul says, “No, it’s not a one-time event.”
Karlo Broussard:
It’s not a one-time event and so therefore, not the imputed righteousness of Christ. So just to summarize there, if imputed righteousness of Christ, justification is a one-time event, but justification is not a one-time event. Therefore, not the imputed righteousness of Christ.
So all of what we’re doing here actually provides the Catholic a way in which we can undermine or refute the common Protestant notion of the imputed righteousness of Christ, that is the ground of our justification.
Cy Kellett:
The objection, of course, is going to be, “Well, you’re saying then Mr. Catholic, that without Christ’s righteousness, you can be saved. You can be saved apart from that.” But that is not what you’re saying.
Karlo Broussard:
And that is not what I’m saying because the Catholic understanding of justification is that we are made righteous. We might call it a metaphysical righteousness or an intrinsic righteousness. We are made righteous because of, by way of the efficient causality of the righteousness of Christ, right? It’s Christ Himself who is perfectly righteous that makes us, causes us to be righteous.
So the ground of my righteousness is both the interior transformation that takes place when we initially come into Christ, right, where we are made righteous. But it’s not that effect of us being made righteous. It’s not coming from us. It’s coming from the power of Christ who is causing us to be righteous. Right? So it’s because of Christ’s righteousness that we are made righteous.
So in no way does the Catholic view of justification take away from the righteousness of Christ because it’s only because of the righteousness of Christ that we can be made righteous and come into a right relationship with God.
Cy Kellett:
To me, I was raised a Catholic, I’ve been Catholic since I was born. But the Catholic position has always seemed the more attractive to me because it promises the real transformation of myself, even though it’s over time. it promises the real transformation of myself into the likeness of Christ whereas the Protestant position promises not the real transformation in myself, but the replacement of my unrighteous with Christ’s righteousness.
Karlo Broussard:
Yeah. It’s a bit more nuanced than that.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
Because a Protestant could counter and say, “Well, wait a minute, you have reformed Protestants who will say, ‘No, we do acknowledge that you are conformed to the likeness of Christ. You are sanctified interiorly, but the ground of your justification is merely the imputed righteousness of Christ.'” So in that position, when you come to faith in Christ, you have the imputed righteousness of Christ, which is the ground of your justification. And you are sanctified subjectively where you’re conformed to Christ and subjectively, you’re going to work out that ongoing sanctification process throughout your life.
Now, other Protestant positions, this is more the Lutheran position of what Luther taught is that initially when you come to Christ, you are merely imputed with the righteousness of Christ and subjectively you’re not sanctified.
Okay? And so there’s a variety of positions among Protestant Christians concerning that.
Cy Kellett:
I see.
Karlo Broussard:
But for the Catholic, it’s not the imputed righteousness of Christ, right? We are interiorly transformed. The ground of our justification is the righteousness that we have. But because of, by way of the righteousness of Christ. It’s only because of His righteousness and He being the cause of our very own righteousness. Right? And so that would be the Catholic position, which is a beautiful position because we’re upholding the sovereignty of God, only He can make us righteous.
And the beautiful understanding that we are actually made righteousness because of His grace. So you have that interior transformation that takes place where we’re conformed to Christ. And we are in His image made like unto Him, right. And by His grace, we can live out, hopefully continue in that perfection, in that sanctification, looking forward to that ultimate perfection where sin will no longer be when we’re on the other side of the veil in union with Him.
Cy Kellett:
Here’s one advantage of the Protestant position though, a possible advantage of the Protestant position. I go to the church and I answer the altar call and I am saved. Okay? Now I go out and I get hit by a bus on the way home, but I am fully, 100% saved because all of Christ’s righteousness was imputed to me in that moment.
In the Catholic position, how saved am I really? I mean, I didn’t go do any of the work. I didn’t do the sanctification, I just answered the altar call. And then I … Do you see what I’m saying?
Karlo Broussard:
Well, actually, from the Catholic view, when you’re baptized, the full merits of Christ’s death on the cross are applied to you where it is entirely applied to you in that you are interiorly transformed, made righteous and no debt of punishment remains for past sins whatsoever. So not only are you made clean by way of the guilt being removed, but all of the debt of punishment is removed initially, both temporal and eternal.
So the full merits of Jesus’ death are applied. The question then becomes, what about post-baptismal sins and the amount of the merits of Jesus’ death applied? The Catholic position is that when you repent for post-baptismal sins, ordinarily through the sacrament of confession, the debt of eternal punishment is going to be wiped away, the guilt of sin is going to be wiped away. But Christ wills that some debt of temporal punishment remain, a suffering or pain due to us to make up for the wrong that we’ve done.
But that’s a whole other question, right? But it’s a matter of what Christ wills and the application of His merit. So the Catholic church is like initially, 100%. Post-baptismal sins, Christ wills to allow a little bit for us to undergo in order to cooperate with His grace, to be conformed more to His likeness. And hopefully, moved by charity, to imitate Christ with making satisfaction for sin. As Christ voluntarily out of charity, bore suffering for the sake of sin, we can imitate Christ and voluntarily, out of charity bearing suffering for the sake of our own sin, but also for the sake of other sins as well.
Cy Kellett:
So if I, just help me then and then I’ll stop asking you questions.
Karlo Broussard:
Hey man, this is what it’s about, right?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, if I fully embrace the Catholic understanding of justification, I am fully justified at the beginning of my journey.
Karlo Broussard:
Amen.
Cy Kellett:
But there’s the possibility of the loss either in full or in part of that justification as I sin?
Karlo Broussard:
Yes because justification is primarily, as Aquinas puts it, the rectitude of the mind and the will to God. It’s an ordering of the intellect and the will to God. It’s a rectitude. Right?
Cy Kellett:
Yep.
Karlo Broussard:
And so venial sin, in some way, I’m going to have that right ordering to my ultimate life’s goal, namely God. But I inordinately attach myself to a changeable good, a particular good. Not to such a degree where I completely turn myself away from God, that’s mortal sin, but there’s some unhealthy attachment to that created good.
I overindulged in the created good outside of the order to the ultimate end. Although my will is still directed to the ultimate end, okay. So there’s some disorder there. So that rectitude is in some way a loss, right. With mortal sin, the rectitude of the mind and the will is completely lost because I’m turning away from God as my ultimate life’s goal. By turning to some particular good in making that my ultimate life’s goal.
And so in that sense, I lose justification because I am no longer ordered to God as my ultimate end. And so, yeah, that’s the effect of … That’s why we call it a mortal sin because there’s a mortal effect in the soul where the soul is now void of God’s sanctifying grace, which gives me that right ordered relationship with God and makes me pure and Holy and blameless in the sight of the Lord.
And so I lose that. I lose the gift of charity. That’s the mortal effect, the supernatural life ceases to exist. And this is why God must give a grace to move me to repentance, to spiritually resurrect me in order that I can receive that grace once again and be rightly ordered to God as my life’s ultimate goal and be able to operate and do things like works of love and stuff on a supernatural level so that it’s meritorious of the final reward of heaven.
Cy Kellett:
God is good.
Karlo Broussard:
Indeed. He is all the time.
Cy Kellett:
Thanks, Karlo.
Karlo Broussard:
Thank you brother.
Cy Kellett:
The process of working out our salvation, as the apostle Paul puts it, is not just another set of obligations and it is certainly not a rejection of the gracious act of God in saving us through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. We’re not trying to save ourselves here. It’s the work of friendship with the living God. It’s a lifetime of cooperation with the God who heals us and makes us new.
Understanding that justification is a process does not make us less reliant on Christ, but more reliant in a day to day sense when we understand that we need Him each day to continue His work, making us new, healing us, forgiving our sins. Over time, we become more pliable to Him so that He can make us into creatures who are truly able to love without limit and to live as His close friends. In other words, it’s a great adventure.
Thanks for joining us this time on Catholic Answers Focus. We’d love to hear from you. If you have comments about this episode, or you want to suggest future episodes, just send us an email at focus@catholic.com. You can subscribe to Focus, of course, wherever you get your podcast, don’t forget to give us that rating or review if you’re willing, because that does help grow the podcast. And we need your financial support if you are able to do so, could you visit us and give us that support at givecatholic.com.
I’m Cy Kellett, your host. It’s always fun to be here with you, especially when Karlo’s with us and we’ll see you next time, God willing, right here on Catholic Answers Focus.