Faith or works or faith plus works or just lots of good works? How are we justified before God? Tim Staples explains the Catholic understanding of the role of grace before all else.
Cy Kellett:
Hello and welcome again to Focus, the Catholic Answers Podcast for living, understanding, and defending your Catholic faith. I’m Cy Kellett, your host, and Tim Staples here with us again, this time to talk about justification. When we think about the things that divide Catholics and Protestants, justification’s always one of the top, maybe the top among those. And I was thinking I might say to you, Tim … First of all, welcome Tim Staples.
Tim Staples:
It is great to be with you, my friend.
Cy Kellett:
I was thinking I might say to you, well, this is a big issue between Catholics and Protestants, but I’m going to tell you something as a cradle Catholic, which you are not, and I am.
Tim Staples:
Yes.
Cy Kellett:
I don’t think this is a big issue between Catholics and Protestants. I think this is a big issue Protestants have with Catholics, because as a kid raised in the Catholic Church, we were taught about salvation, but nobody talked much about justification. That’s not how we were taught.
Tim Staples:
Yeah.
Cy Kellett:
And so often I felt as a child or as a teenager maybe, unprepared to talk to Protestants about this, because I didn’t know what they were talking about. So that’s the way of starting, I guess a Catholic to ask former Protestant, now Catholic Apologist, Tim Staples, what is justification?
Tim Staples:
Yeah, one simple way to look at it, it’s the process whereby, I, a sinner, am made justified never sinned. Did you get the pun there? Okay. Justified never sinned. Just if I-
Cy Kellett:
Oh.
Tim Staples:
He got it.
Cy Kellett:
My gosh, I’m so slow. It took me like an hour to get that. I apologize, Tim.
Tim Staples:
That’s right. And it is a process. And you know what? Our Protestant friends are big on the legal aspect and all of that. And we’re fine with saying there is a legal connotation here because it is a way in which God transforms us from sinner into saint, which is the ultimate goal. So we move from, as Paul describes us in Ephesians chapter 2, verse three, “We were by nature children of wrath.” And he has all sorts of interesting metaphors for us. He basically says what Jesus says in John 15:5, “Apart from me, you can do nothing.” “So apart from Christ, we are sinners, we’re on our way to hell,” he says. And then the grace of God enters into the picture and there is a real transformation. And Cy, that becomes a real important point in the discussion with Protestants because the Protestant notion, generally speaking, we’re talking about Luther classically and Calvin.
Now there’s many different Protestant theologies out there as there are Protestants nowadays. I say that a bit hyperbolic, but the classic Lutheran faux pas of that justification is not a transformation. He makes a radical distinction between justification and sanctification whereas we as Catholics see them as part and parcel of the same transformation where it’s a legal fiction where God declares you righteous, covers you with what Luther called the righteousness of Christ, His own righteousness. Lutheran theologians called it an alien righteousness because it’s not yours. You’re simply covered over, it’s Christ’s righteousness. And of course, that’s ridiculous because Christ’s righteousness is infinite. That’s His and His alone because He’s the only one that can merit infinitely. We participate in His righteousness, but it’s a real righteousness that is ours, not alien to us.
Cy Kellett:
That’s right.
Tim Staples:
But the real justification is an infusion, a transformation. And my goodness, Cy, that’s what you see in sacred scripture. For example, famously in 2 Corinthians 5:17, “If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation. Behold, all things old are passed away, all things are become new.” He’s a new creation, a transformation. That’s what justification is ultimately all about. Yeah, take away sins and all of that but it’s a real transformation to where your sins are actually gone. They’re not just covered over.
Cy Kellett:
Right. Right.
Tim Staples:
It’s a real transformation. But if you think about it, Cy, what is the reason? Because my Catholic friends will often, when they hear this, this alien justification of purely forensic. Meaning a declaration of righteousness that has no transforming anything in the person, it’s completely alien to them. It’s completely alien to a Catholic. They’re going, “Huh?”
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, that’s my actual experience of it. I just couldn’t grasp it. I couldn’t understand it.
Tim Staples:
And they would say, “Well, then begins…” And Luther did early on really focus on that initial aspect of justification. He later did get into the sanctification that he would say necessarily follows, because if you really are in Christ, there is going to be a transformation. But the transformation is not necessary for salvation. If you commit adultery, hey, you’re just as righteous before, during, and after. That kind of theology, because we’re justified by faith alone, is what leads to these weird concepts.
And this was Luther’s faux pas, right? This was his major error is his idea that works, which he did not understand properly, works or anything we do whatsoever, cannot have anything to do with our justification. That’s what led to all those extremes, forensic justification. It’s external, it’s alien. The image he used, actually we’re like a pile of cow dung covered over by snow, underneath, what are you?
Cy Kellett:
Still the cow dung.
Tim Staples:
As my friend Father Mitch Packwood said years ago, he said, “Okay, we’ll give you the metaphor of the dung. We get pretty stinky, all right?” But the Catholic answer is God plows us under, sins the seed of the word of God in sacraments-
Cy Kellett:
Oh, wow.
Tim Staples:
And transforms that pile of cow dung and brings flowers. I mean, it’s not a perfect analogy, but I remember Father trying to help folks to understand that Luther’s aversion toward works that permeates Protestant ever since, is faulty from the start. His thinking, Cy, and it’s so clear when you read Luther, if you read Bondage of the Will, if you read anything Luther wrote on the topic, his belief was that we as Catholics were somehow teaching you could merit grace. You could merit what is a gift, right?
And he was so, so wrong. And of course the Council of Trent, and long before the Council of Trent, Leo the 10th, and the theologians that he sent was trying to get, “No Luther. We do not teach that you cannot merit grace. No.” As Romans 11:6 says, “If grace is a matter of works, then grace is no longer grace.” Grace itself is a gift from God. And the faith that we receive that justifies us is an absolute gift from God. We believe. So, my Protestant friends, if you’re listening right now, the Catholic Church agrees with you in this respect. As Ephesians 2:8 and 9 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And that…” What is, “that”? The word, that, refers back to what’s called a perfect paraphasic, kind of fancy. That’s Greek. “For by grace you have been saved through faith.” That’s a paraphasic that kind of all goes together. Grace and faith are both that which is not from you. It is the gift of God. Right?
Cy Kellett:
Ah. I see, yes. That’s an very important way of understanding that sentence. Yeah. Okay.
Tim Staples:
It is. And our Protestant friends agree it should, okay. That yeah, both grace and faith are gifts from God. So we agree with you, Marty. We agree with you my Luther friends.
Cy Kellett:
Very familiar for you to be Luther with Martin Luther.
Tim Staples:
However, where he misses it, and we’ll kind of break this down as we go through, but where he misses it and so gravely is that he’s not understanding that though grace itself is always… And this is why by the way, you can’t merit sacraments. You don’t merit any sacraments because sacraments are instruments of grace. They’re all unmerited. Right? We simply cooperate with the gift and then we grow in grace, whether it’s in your marriage, you’re given this gift on your wedding day, then you enter into it and you can grow in that grace.
But you can’t merit the initial grace. You can’t merit the Eucharist. You can’t merit confession. You can’t merit. These are gifts. But as 2 Peter 3:18 says, we’re called to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord in Savior Jesus Christ. And this is why the catechism will say in section 2010, since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification at the beginning of conversion moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity we can then merit for ourselves and for others the grace is needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace in charity and the attainment of eternal life.
And why is that? Because these are rewards that are merited in grace. You have to be in grace. And in fact, the graces we merit for others are only because they’re in grace. This is why in the communion of saints, for example, when we’re praying for souls in purgatory, the reason why we can merit for them is because they’re already in grace. They simply have punishment due for sin or perhaps menial sins, but most likely it’s punishment due for sin in a state of grace. So that’s why the grace flows between us. Think of it as a member of the body of Christ. That dude over there is a finger and I’m a hand. Well, I can merit for him. He’s wounded, he’s bleeding over there. I can merit for him because we’re connected in Christ. But if you cut him off from the body of Christ, then we can no longer merit. We have to pray. And God must bring them to repentance.
Cy Kellett:
Is he in grace? And are you in grace because you were justified?
Tim Staples:
Correct.
Cy Kellett:
So when am I first justified?
Tim Staples:
There’s a great question. And very importantly, I want to go to the Council of Trent. Do you ever heard of that?
Cy Kellett:
I have heard of that. Yeah.
Tim Staples:
And I’m not talking about the podcast.
Cy Kellett:
Which is pretty good, but not as good as the original.
Tim Staples:
Yeah, that’s right. But in the Council of Trent, session six on justification, which I recommend everybody read, it’s really pithy. It’s amazing what they did in that one session. But in chapter eight, the heading is, in what manner is it to be understood that the impious is justified by faith and gratuitously, and listen to what it says here and so pithy. “And whereas the apostle sayeth…” I love those iths, “And whereas the apostle sayeth that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense, which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church have held and expressed do it. That we are therefore said to be justified by faith because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification without which it is impossible to please God.”
By the way, there is a reference to Hebrews 11:6, “Without faith, it is impossible to please God. For everyone who believes in him must believe that he is and that he is the rewarder of those who diligent seek him.” Notice this is before justification. This is the preparation for justification Hebrews 11 is talking about. But you have to believe that God is and that he’s a rewarder. These are what we call… Now I’m taking off here from Trent, what Catholic theologians call the necessary conditions for justification, right? Like repentance, you have to repent, you have to obey, you have to believe in the trinity, believe in the essential truths of the faith. These are all conditions, but they don’t justify you. These are conditions necessary. And this is how faith is necessary for salvation. And so it is said that we are justified by faith because without faith, it’s impossible to please God. Now the let’s talk catechumen here.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Tim Staples:
Man, we’re getting to the nitty-gritty here. We’re talking catechumen here, unbaptized, pagan, right? Well, he is given what we call prevenient grace to where… Boop, he’s illuminated. Wow. I believe in the trinity. I believe in the hypothetic union. I believe in the papacy. I believe in the blessed mother. Woo. I’m ready. None of that justifies. But at that point, that is the beginning. What they’re talking about here, the beginning of human salvation, the foundation of root of all justification that faith that’s given in a prevenient sense. And ordinarily it does not justify in the sense of bringing you from being impious to pious.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Tim Staples:
Bringing you from death to life ordinarily. Now, God does extraordinary things like with Cornelius, before he was baptized, he got the whole shindig.
Cy Kellett:
Would this also apply to the good thief?
Tim Staples:
Yes.
Cy Kellett:
On the cross, is that the same? Okay.
Tim Staples:
Absolutely.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Tim Staples:
We’re bound by the sacraments, God is not. So the ordinary course is baptism incorporates you into Christ. But here, look at this now.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Tim Staples:
And that’s why whenever… In fact, if you go back to chapter four, when… Or is it chapter six, either four or six here in session six, it talks about baptism being essential or the desire, therefore, right? Because the desire for baptism can suffice an extraordinary situations and be the instrument that brings about the transformation in extraordinary situations. And so here, all right, “The perpetual consent of the Catholic faith held in, expressed to it that we are therefore said to be justified by faith. Because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification without which is impossible to please God and to come unto the fellowship of his sons. But we are therefore said to be justified freely because that none of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, none of them merit the grace itself of justification.”
And then it quotes, Romans 11:6, “For if it be grace, it is not now by works.” Otherwise, as the apostle says, grace is no more grace. And so the what’s fascinating to me, especially with many of my evangelical Protestant friends, because they have… There’s almost this collegian understanding of faith and especially the proclamation of faith, of having all the power to transform you from death to life. No, it does. It’s the grace of God that has the power to transform you from death to life. And it’s something you can’t do. You cannot merit. Even your proclamation of faith can’t merit you justification. That’s why we have baptism. Baptism. Think of the little… See, we are the ones… Guys and girls, my Catholic friends. Please listen. Okay? We are the ones who believe it’s entirely unmerited because we can’t… There’s no manner of faith or proclaiming, even though we’re being brought-
Cy Kellett:
There’s no formula you can say, there’s no act you can… There’s no song you can sing. Nothing, that will save you.
Tim Staples:
No. It’s entirely unmerited. It is a gift. And that’s why we have a little baby laying there, and father pours water on his head, and all that kid’s doing is pooping, crying. And guess what? He’s transformed into the image of the Son of God, incorporated into Christ. He received seven gifts of the Holy Spirit, the right to all the other sacraments in accordance with his calling and life. And all he’s doing is laying there pooping. I mean, we are the ultimate example of a true justification that’s entirely unmerited. There’s no, I confess Jesus, and therefore I’m justified. No, it’s the grace of God. All right, but hear me here because look at it, “For if it be a grace, it is not now by works.” Otherwise, the apostle says, grace is no more grace. So in what sense are we justified by faith?
First of all, we’re justified by faith because it is absolutely essential or nothing happens. The only thing, what would happen for the adult convert, if he’s baptized, and let’s say he doesn’t repent, he doesn’t believe, he doesn’t believe in the trinity. He rejects, but he lies to the priest. Oh yeah, I believe all that. And he goes through it proforma. Well, guess what? He gets wet and he gets the baptismal seal, but he does not get sanctifying grace. In fact, in a sense, he’ll go to a lower place in hell because he has a greater responsibility for doing what he did. Okay? So faith is essential for justification. In that sense, we’re justified by faith, but then we have after baptism, because we have to understand, as Paul teaches in Romans six, verses three and four, we are buried together with him through baptism. I want you to notice the Bible never says we’re buried together with him through the confession of faith, never.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Tim Staples:
If you look at the verse, Colossians 2:11 and 12, Galatians 3:27 here, Romans six, three and four, the famous John three, verse five. Unless you’re born of water in the spirit, you cannot see the kingdom of heaven. It’s all baptism, when the scripture talks about us being transformed from light into darkness being incorporated into Jesus Christ, it is as clear as a bell the instrument God uses. And it’s called baptism. I will say again, Roman 6:3 we’re buried together with him through baptism. So that just as Christ was raised in new life, we may be raised to newness of life, death to life, baptism. You did nothing to merit. But at that point then, and this is the point that the Council of Trent makes you receive the first principle of all merit into your soul, and that is the charity of Christ sanctifying grace.
And that is what empowers you to be able to say, Jesus Christ is Lord and merit eternal life. You merit it because you’re already in Christ. You’re actually meriting an increase in grace. And that’s another sense in which we say we’re justified by faith. Like with Abraham, when Abraham… That would be Romans chapter four. Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness. Abraham was already in God before he confesses faith, because if he wasn’t, that could not merit anything. But he was, and that’s why… Now that opens up a whole nother question about how did Abraham first enter into the relationship with God? What is the role of circumcision in the Old Testament and the sacrifices and whatnot? Oh, I don’t even know if we want to get into that because it gets-
Cy Kellett:
But it does bring up a question though. So Abraham is justified by faith.
Tim Staples:
Yes, yes.
Cy Kellett:
But he’s not justified by faith alone.
Tim Staples:
Yes.
Cy Kellett:
Is that what you’re saying?
Tim Staples:
Yes. Amen. All right, let’s dive just for a second. This will get fun. Because fathers and doctors of the church will disagree somewhat over the nature of… And we don’t really have revelation on this, what did circumcision do?
Cy Kellett:
Oh, yeah.
Tim Staples:
Right. Paul talks about how it’s a sign and a seal of the justification he already had by faith. But when it says a sign and a seal, this is not just a pure symbol. There’s real grace that was communicated through circumcision. Many fathers would say it took away original sin and a limited amount of grace was communicated. And this seems to be obvious. You can take it beyond circumcision, even to the animal sacrifices. No, they could not penetrate to the cleansing of the conscience. The inspired author of the Hebrews says, but there is a ritual purification of the flesh.
What does that mean? It’s a purification of… Well, there can’t be a purification without grace. So there’s grace. But as Thomas Aquinas… Let me quote you from Thomas Aquinas here. In the third part of the Summa question 70, Thomas says this and explaining, what’s the relationship between circumcision and say the animal sacrifice and all these things, because they were ineffectual. They could not penetrate to as Hebrews eight, nine, and especially 10, but nine as well, to the purification of the conscience. But there was a purification, and it was necessary for salvation in the sense that whether you go to Genesis 17, 14 when Abraham was circumcised, remember God says, anyone who is not circumcised is to be cut off from his people. So it was essential and the animal sacrifices as well, even though again, they were ineffectual in taking us to heaven.
That’s why when the saints died in the Old Testament, they couldn’t go to heaven. They were in paradise until Jesus died. And why is that? Well, let me read Thomas Aquinas here. I think he says it in a pithy way here. We must say therefore, that grace was bestowed in circumcision as to all the effects of grace, but not as in baptism. Because in baptism, grace is bestowed by the very power of baptism itself, which power baptism has as the instrument of Christ’s passion already consummated. Whereas circumcision bestowed grace in as much as it was a sign of faith in Christ’s future passion. So that the man who was circumcised, professed to embrace that faith, whether being an adult he made profession for himself, or being a child someone else made profession for him. Hints to the apostle says in Romans 4:11, which I quoted before Abraham received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the justice of the faith that he already had because to which justice was of faith signified not of circumcision signifying.
And since baptism operates instrumentally by the power of Christ’s passion, whereas circumcision does not, therefore baptism imprints a character that incorporates man into Christ and bestows grace. Here’s key more copiously than does circumcision since greater is the effect of a thing already present than of the hope thereof. So circumcision was a symbol, a sign of something to come, as was Abraham’s faith as well, because ultimately his faith was in the coming Messiah. That was the justifying faith, but it was incomplete. That’s why even Abraham couldn’t have the beatific vision, right? Even though graces are being communicated, Cy Kellett through the animal… I did this a long time ago, but if you go through the Old Testament and look at the examples of what cuts off the people of God in the Old Testament from the community, it’s not going to the temple.
It’s not offering sacrifice for sin, not being circumcised and those sorts of things, which indicates these are all instruments of grace, but they’re not the grace as copious to use Thomas’s language as it is with baptism. But so here’s the key. There was a connection in the Old Testament between the faith of Abraham and the circumcision. There was a connection of grace, so that you can’t say circumcision wasn’t necessarily sure it was. And you say, well, women couldn’t be circumcised. Yeah. That’s why their relationship with God was mediated through the man. Your dad was your covering and then he gives you away. Now you’re covering is the man. That’s one of the powerful things about baptism that Paul talks about in Galatians 3:27, where there’s no longer male nor female bond or free Jew nor Greek all are one in Christ.
That was a revolutionary concept. Wow. We all have direct relationship with God in and through Jesus Christ. And the sacrament of baptism, which is what Colossians 2:11 and 12 says, “The circumcision of Christ.” So there was a relationship in the Old Testament between the circumcision and faith. But see, in the New Testament, it’s much more profound.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Tim Staples:
Because baptism now is not just a sign of something that you have to come. It’s the fulfillment, it’s the circumcision of Christ that actually takes you the whole nine yards and you’re transformed into Christ and you experienced something that the Old Testament people have got could not experience. But here’s my last thing I want to say on this, is my Protestant friends will say, but you’re denying then that you’re actually justified by faith. No, we are not. You’re justified by faith… In fact, we would say you’re justified by obedience, by repentance, right? I mean, look at Romans chapter six, verse 16, right? You could quote it for me. No, I’m joking.
Cy Kellett:
No, I’m Catholic.
Tim Staples:
That’s all right, listen, in Romans 6:16, St. Paul says, “No, you not. Whoever, you yield yourself servants to obey, his servants you are.” Whether it be a servant of the flesh, which leads to death, or if you continue in the spirit, it leads to life. So St. Paul is saying here that justification… Well, let me back up and quote it verbatim. He says, “No, you not, whosoever servants you yield yourselves, his servants you are. Whether the flesh which leads to death or the spirit, which leads to justification.” Now, the modern bibles do not translate. It leads to justification, but that’s exactly what it says. It’s obedient [foreign language 00:29:16], which means obedience unto justification. Now, the modern Bible say unto righteousness, but it’s the same word.
So obedience leads to justification the same way the profession of faith leads to justification. When Romans 10:10, for example says “For what the heart man believes under righteousness.” That’s, what the heart man believes under justification. “With the mouth, confession is made unto salvation.” It’s [inaudible 00:29:50]. “With the mouth, confession is made unto salvation.” It doesn’t mean that by the confession, you’re transformed. You’re brought into Christ. No, it’s through the confession of faith, you increase in your salvation. You increase in your justification in the same way with obedience. Obedience leads to justification the same way the belief in the heart leads. I just thought of something that when you look at the Greek text there of Romans 10:10, “For what the heart man believes unto righteousness.” It’s actually belief [foreign language 00:30:32]. It’s the same Greek words. With the heart, belief unto justification. Romans 6:16, it’s [foreign language 00:30:39] in the same words, except its obedience, which leads to justification just as belief.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Tim Staples:
Leads to justification. See, here is the key. When we’re talking about justification by faith in the sense of it as a preparation, it doesn’t justify in a strict sense, but it’s essential for justification because baptism will be ineffective without faith, right?
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Tim Staples:
But then immediately after baptism, when you make that profession of faith, now that you’re in Christ, that profession leads unto salvation, leads unto justification. Are you with me?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Yeah.
Tim Staples:
See, in every act we perform in Christ, can become as I think it was Josemaría Escrivá, who said once, “Apart from Christ, you can do nothing. In Christ you can flip a light switch on and merit eternal life.”
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Tim Staples:
Because once you enter into Jesus, you become supernatural in everything you do, when you offer it up in Him, with Him and through him becomes [inaudible 00:31:47], becomes your growth in justification and whatnot. So what I find si is this concept, when I share it with my Protestant friends, and I’ve done it with hundreds and hundreds of them over the years, it’s a mindblower for them because they didn’t know it. I mean, Martin Luther famously said that the Catholic Church was polygon, taught that we could merit grace. And that’s a complete falsity, which now the Catholic Lutheran dialogue, at least with the Evangelical Lutheran Church, has understood and has acknowledged that, that was false.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Tim Staples:
Luther was wrong. The Catholic Church never taught that, but what-
Cy Kellett:
But to understand the Catholic position, you just need a fuller appreciation of grace.
Tim Staples:
Yes.
Cy Kellett:
In the whole operation of thing that once you understand that it’s faith in grace that’s already have been received, that the grace is received before any of this or none of it matters.
Tim Staples:
Absolutely. And that’s why… See, that’s a good point Cy, because even though St. Paul says having been justified by faith in Romans 5:1, actually that’s a bad translation. It’s basically justified by faith because it’s a ariost tense, it’s not a perfect tense. So I don’t know why the modern Bible will say, having been, because it’s not. It’s just justified past tense errors. “By faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have access into this grace wherein we stand and rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.” And knowing that there’s this litany of hope works this and works this and works this by the power of the Holy Spirit that works in us. So the point being here that we have been justified by faith doesn’t mean what Luther thought, that it was faith alone that brought you into that state of grace.
That’s not what Paul is saying in Romans for he’s simply saying, justified by faith. Why? Just like you’re justified by obedience, you’re justified by repentance. You’re justified, right? By love. In Luke chapter seven, this woman was forgiven of much. Why? Because she loved much. We’re justified by love, we’re justified by obedience. Turning on a light switch to use [inaudible 00:34:29] Escrivá’s image here. Because once we’re in Christ, then that proclamation of faith becomes justifying and can increase our state of grace and so forth. And that’s what the Council of Trent was talking about in that quote I cited before about the preparation for justification and then the empowerment that happens after the justification that occurs in baptism.
Cy Kellett:
Wow. Wow.
Tim Staples:
Woo-hoo.
Cy Kellett:
Thank you, Tim.
Tim Staples:
Well, that was kind of fun.
Cy Kellett:
That was really enlightening. Yes, very… That’s very helpful to me. Thank you.
Tim Staples:
Praise God.
Cy Kellett:
I hope to somebody else too. I mean, I assume.
Tim Staples:
And we just got started.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Tim Staples:
We could do this for another couple hours, man, there’s so much more.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. How beautiful though. Thank you very much, Tim Staples, and thank you for joining us here on Catholic Answers Focus. Send us an email focus@cath.com if you want to support us financially. Please, it does help keep the lights on. Give catholic.com is where you can do that. And as always, if you give us that five star review, few nice words. Maybe tell somebody about the podcast that helps to grow it, and that’s what we’re trying to do. I’m Cy Kellett your host. We’ll see you next time. God willing, right here on Catholic Answers Focus.