Protestantism has some explaining to do about its own traditions. Did the new theologies of the reformers actually make sense? Do they make sense today? John Martignoni joins us.
Cy Kellett:
Hello and welcome to Focus, the Catholic Answers Podcast for living, understanding and defending your Catholic faith. I’m Cy Kellett, your host, and we got a long time author with a new book. And the new book is about does Protestantism make sense? And it’s a Catholic approach to looking at Protestantism and just asking in a basic, honest, straightforward way, does this hang together? Would a person say, “Well, yeah, that makes sense?” John Martignoni is our guest and he’s the founder of the Bible Christian Society, is a longtime EWTN apologist. John, thanks for being here.
John Martignoni:
Cy, it’s my pleasure. I appreciate you having me on.
Cy Kellett:
All right, so you do blue collar apologetics. This book is called Blue Collar Answers to Protestant Questions.
John Martignoni:
Well, actually the publishers have changed the title on me.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, okay. As they do.
John Martignoni:
As publishers are wont to do. It’s called A Blue Collar Answer to Protestantism. And the subtitle is Catholic Questions Protestants Can’t Answer.
Cy Kellett:
Ah, yeah. Okay. So the book is divided into two parts really. And they’re coming at it two different ways. But it seems to me asking the basic fundamental question is, does this make sense? So your contention is that if you’re going to have a religion, if you’re going to have faith, it should make sense.
John Martignoni:
Yes. And the way this book developed is that in the last 25 years that I’ve been doing apologetics publicly, I’ve talked to probably two to 3,000 Protestants, either in person or over the phone or via email dialogues, et cetera. And quite often I found myself in the middle of a conversation thinking what that person just said, that just doesn’t make sense. It just does not make sense. And so slowly I started realizing, hey, there’s questions that I can start asking people, Protestants, that just like you said, basic, fundamental questions about, well, why this? Why that? Why not this? And about scripture, about just plain old logic and basic common sense. And I started realizing, I said, “They can’t answer these questions.” And it just basically grew and I started making a list and that’s how the book came about.
Cy Kellett:
So this is important to you, I gather, for a couple reasons. And I just want to ask you about the reasons. Because I want to make clear to people, especially our Protestant listeners, that it’s not about attacking anybody. It’s about a couple things. One, having everything that Jesus wants to give you, and two, being able to go out in the world and invite others to have everything that Jesus wants to give.
John Martignoni:
Absolutely. It’s about truth. What is the truth? That’s what I always tell people. I say, it shouldn’t be, “Well, Catholic is right, Baptist is wrong.” Or, “Catholic is right, evangelical wrong.” It should be a question of every dialogue between Catholic and non-Catholic Christians should be what is the truth? And these questions are designed to get people to start thinking about what is the truth. Protestants are always asking Catholics about our faith. Catholics are always answering questions, answering questions. So Protestants are always making Catholics look at what we believe and why we believe it. So that’s what these questions and these issues that are brought up in this book, that’s what they’re designed to do, to make Protestants look at what they believe and why they believe it. Like you said, it’s not to make fun of anybody or to put anybody down. It’s an honest to goodness search for the truth.
Cy Kellett:
So people still celebrate the reformation, but your take would be the reformation introduced some inconsistencies that can’t be reconciled. And you start the book, the first part of the book, book divided into two sections. Generally the two biggies that don’t make sense and they can’t be reconciled with a full Christian faith is sola scriptura and sola fide. It’s that basic.
John Martignoni:
Correct. Yes. And those are the two dogmas of Protestantism that you’ll … I talk about throughout the book, in the first section, which is more looking at the big picture of Protestantism. But then particularly in the second section, which is looking at individual Protestant doctrines and dogmas and asking questions about them. And so you’ll get several questions about sola fide, but coming from different perspectives, being based off of different scripture verses. Same with sola scriptura. I’ll use this scripture verse and ask a question in this way and then go to this other scripture verse and ask a question from a slightly different perspective. And all of that is to show that when I’m talking about something not making sense, I’m not talking about it not making sense because of one tiny little area that doesn’t make sense. I’m talking about from the whole broad perspective of scripture, this doesn’t make sense. And from the whole broad perspective of logic, this doesn’t make sense.
Cy Kellett:
Those arguments are much more persuasive to me, I have to say. Sometimes you can get into the weeds and it is important sometimes to get into the weeds to help somebody past a hangup or something like that. But getting into the weeds, to me, has never, and I think for most people, is not as persuasive as stepping back and going, okay, big picture, does sola scriptura fit with the history of where the scriptures came from? Does it fit with the way that you live your faith? Does it fit with what Jesus says in the scripture? Is it internally consistent? Is it externally consistent? All of that.
And you come down with a no on sola scripture. And I think that that’s a hard one for many, many Protestant people. Because their fidelity to scripture as the sole basis for their faith is right next to their fidelity to the person of Christ. So if you say to a Protestant person, “No, that’s wrong actually, that’s a mistake, that’s sola scriptura thing, but you don’t have to let go of Jesus.” I suppose that might be helpful. But do you see what I’m saying? For many Protestants, they can’t let go of the sola scriptura because that’s the way they show their fidelity to Jesus.
John Martignoni:
Absolutely. And you’re right because what I have found is that if there is a universal doctrine or dogma, however you want to refer to it, throughout all of Protestantism, it is sola scriptura. Sola fide is not universal in Protestantism. There are a number of Protestant denominations who do not believe in salvation by faith alone. But I have yet to come across a Protestant denomination that does not believe in sola scriptura, going by the Bible alone. But what I started realizing is, as I’d get into these discussions with all these Protestants, they’d read me, let’s say, Romans 3:28, and it says, “We’re saved by faith, not by works of law.” And they’d point to the book, that passage in the book, and they’d say, “See. Salvation by faith alone.” And I’d look at the verse and it’s like, well, but that’s not what it says. So they’re giving me their interpretation of the verse. And so all these times I’ve debated Protestants, Protestant ministers, Bible church pastors and so forth, they’ll give me a verse and they’ll say, “What that means is … ” And it’s like, whoa, whoa.
Cy Kellett:
What does it say though?
John Martignoni:
Yeah, exactly. So I realized very early on, I said, “You’re not going by the Bible alone. You’re going by your interpretation of the Bible alone.” And that is a huge, huge difference. Because every single Protestant I know of that I’ve ever talked to will deny infallibility. “You Catholics with your infallibility of the Pope and all. No man is infallible.” I’ve been told that a hundred times if I’ve been told that once. No man is infallible. And I’ll look at them, I say, “And that includes you, right?” And they’ll, “Well, yeah.” Although a lot of times when you talk to Protestants, it seems as if they believe they’re infallible when they’re talking to Catholics. But other than that, they’re not infallible. But what I started realizing, I said, “So every time you give me a verse from scripture and you interpret what that means, that’s a fallible interpretation of scripture, right?” And very rarely do they admit that. But you can see in their face, they realize, oh yeah, he’s kind of got a point.
So what I’m doing in this book is I’m saying, hey, you’re giving me your fallible interpretations of scripture. Why do I have to believe that? Why do I have to believe what you believe? And I’ve got a chapter in there called Verses Verses Verses where it’s your verses versus my verses. But actually it’s your fallible under Protestant theology … It’s your fallible interpretation of your verses versus my fallible interpretation of my verses. Is that the way Jesus wanted it to be? Did he leave us with no authority who could definitively decide between this view and this view in terms of what are Christians to believe? What are they to practice? Is same-sex marriage moral for a Christian or is it immoral? Is divorce and remarriage moral or is it immoral? Well, you’ve got all these views in Protestantism about all these different moral teachings, doctrinal teachings. Who gets to decide? And that’s what this book goes into is, well, is it everybody reading the Bible on their own gets to decide? Or did Jesus leave us with an authority that could definitively decide these issues?
Cy Kellett:
So that’s the big picture part. Now, you make clear that if you take this forest, not looking at particular trees, but this forest look, there is not an intellectual sense. There isn’t a reasonableness, a basic reasonableness, to sola scriptura. It doesn’t pass the basic reasonableness test. Do you think that the … Well, I mean, for example, you’d say, well, where is that in scripture? Sola scriptura doesn’t appear anywhere in scripture. You would think that if it was a doctrine that the scripture communicates to us, it would be there somewhere. But as you said, people will interpret it differently. But when you speak to Protestants about this, do you talk about the history of the scriptures? Like, okay, this is how they were actually formed, and given that reality, how would you still justify a sola scriptura view?
John Martignoni:
I do. I don’t necessarily go back and say, all right, here we’ve got from the second century, we’ve got this document that shows that the canon of scripture from this person was X and then in third century the canon was Y. And there were a few books difference in these two canon … list of canons, et cetera. Well, sometimes I will, but mostly what I do is I like to ask a question. I’ll just say, well, who put the Bible together as we have it today?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, okay. Yeah. Very simple, straightforward question. Yeah.
John Martignoni:
Yes. What I try to do in my apologetics, I don’t try to explain so much as I try to get the other person to explain. If you really pin me down, I can and I will explain why I believe what I believe. But I’m more interested in why you believe what you believe. So I’ll ask them, I say, well, okay … Like you were just saying, where in the Bible does it give us the list of books that are supposed to be in the Bible? Fair question. You go by the Bible alone. So where does the Bible tell us which books are supposed to be in the Bible?
Because as most people know, there are all sorts of books contending for that they were … people claiming they were the inspired word of God in the early centuries of Christianity. But they didn’t make it into the Bible. And then there are other books that are in the Bible that some people were saying they weren’t the inspired word of God, like the Book of Hebrews and the Second and Third John, and Revelation and so forth. So who decided which book should be in or should not be in? I mean, did the Bible decide? Show me the list in the Bible? And most people … Well, it’s not really … Although I did have one person say to me, “Well, it’s right there in the front.” I said, “What do you mean?”
Cy Kellett:
Oh. Table of content?
John Martignoni:
He goes, “The table of contents.” I was like-
Cy Kellett:
So the table of contents is the inspired word of God, eh?
John Martignoni:
Yes. And I said, “Well, that was actually put in there by the publisher. That’s not the inspired word of God.” So I asked the question, “If the list is not in the Bible, then somebody outside of the Bible had to decide which book should be inside of the Bible. Who was that?” And I’ll get answers like, “Well, it wasn’t the Catholic Church.” Okay, fine.
Cy Kellett:
But who did it?
John Martignoni:
Who was it? Who was it? “Well, it was the early Christians.” Okay, which ones? Give me some names. What kind of authority did they have to decide these types of issues? And I don’t get answers. I don’t get answers. And the thing is, and this is how I teach people apologetics, I say, you don’t necessarily have to dwell on the fact that they can’t answer you. The fact that they can’t answer, you just planted a seed. Now, whether that person … that seed is planted on good soil or it’s on the rocky soil or on the path where the birds come and eat, that’s not up to you. Your job is to plant the seed, excuse me, and then let the Holy Spirit do what He needs to do to see if that seed grows and bears good fruit. So you ask the questions and then you just look at the people and watch them ham and haw, stammer or change the topic altogether. And you say, “Look, if you can’t answer the question, maybe you ought to think about that. Just think about it and pray about it.”
Cy Kellett:
Right, and the thing about that question is it’s not a question rooted in the other person’s ignorance. They may know the Bible perfectly well. It’s not an accusation of ignorance. You’re saying this doesn’t make sense. There is no answer to this question unless you accept what actually happened, which is the Catholic Church gave you the Bible.
John Martignoni:
Right. Right. And I tell people, I said, “Look, I’m not asking these questions just to be asking them. I honestly want to know if I’m missing something.”
Cy Kellett:
Oh, that’s good.
John Martignoni:
“Have I gotten something wrong?” I tell people every single time, I say, “If you can convince me that the Catholic Church is wrong on any single one, just one, of its doctrines, I will leave the Catholic Church and I’ll be worshiping with you side by side at your church this coming Sunday.” Because if the Catholic Church is wrong on any one of its doctrines, that means it could be wrong on every single one of its doctrines. And that can’t be the church Jesus founded.
Cy Kellett:
Now, that’s the first half of the book where you take this big picture approach. And then in the second half you ask, I don’t want to be offensive, but weird little questions like, who wrote the Gospel of Mark? So tell me about how asking a question, you’re having a conversation, Protestant family member, friend, coworker, whatever, and they’re interrogating you about your faith. And you say, “Who wrote the Gospel of Mark?” Why would you ask a question like that?
John Martignoni:
Okay, if they go by the Bible alone and they’re hitting me with all these Bible verses to prove what they’re saying about their faith is true, or to prove the Catholic Church is wrong on its various doctrines and teachings, then I’m going to … “Wait a second. I’ve got a question for you. Who wrote the Gospel of Mark and how do you know?” And I’ve had people just stop and say, “What?” “Who wrote the Gospel of Mark?” “Well, Mark did.” “How do you know that?” “Well, it says the Gospel of Mark.” I said, “Well, that’s the publisher put that in there.” I said, “Nowhere in the actual gospel does it say, ‘I, Mark, the secretary for first Paul and then Peter, wrote this gospel.'” I said, “It doesn’t say that. So if you go by the Bible alone, where does the Bible say Mark … somebody, anybody named Mark, wrote the gospel? And second, where does the Bible say it is the inspired inerrant word of God?” I’ve never gotten an answer. Ever. I mean, I get answers, but never an answer to tell me … to actually answer my questions.
They’ll say something. But I’ve never gotten an answer. I’ll give you … I debated a Church of Christ preacher in several different cities around Alabama over about a three, four year period. And we debated different topics but we debated the topic of sola scriptura one time. And we would do Friday night in the Church of Christ, Saturday night in the Catholic Church, at whatever locale. The premise of the debate, the topic, was every single question about the Christian faith can be answered from the Bible. He affirmed. I was negative. He gets up, makes a spiel, quotes all these Bible verses. I get up and say, “Okay, who wrote the Gospel Mark? And how do you know it’s the inspired inerrant word of God? Give me book, chapter and verse from the Bible.” And then I responded to his verses, and then I sat down. He got up, he ignored my question. And I got up and said, “All you folks here from the Church of Christ, I hope you realize your man did not answer my question. I win the debate.”
And then he gets up the third time, he says, “Well, it doesn’t matter who wrote the Gospel of Mark, as long as you know it’s inspired.” So I got up the third time, I said, “How do you know it’s inspired? That’s part of the question.” I said, “Again, I win the debate.” Well, three months later in a different city, we debated the same topic. He says the exact same thing to start off. I get up, I say the exact same thing, “Who wrote the Gospel of Mark and how do you know it’s the inspired inerrant word of God? Give me me book, chapter and verse if you’re sola scriptura.” He gets up, it’s the second time, he’s got a big smile on his face. And he’s like, “I’ve got this one. I’ve got him.” And he gets up, he says, “Well, we know that the Gospel of Mark is the inspired inerrant word of God because of the witness of the early Christians.” I just laughed out loud. I didn’t mean to, but I just went, “Oh my gosh.” And so I get up-
Cy Kellett:
Well, that’s not in the Bible.
John Martignoni:
I said, “Number one, that’s not the Bible.” I said, “Number two,” I said, “Do you know what we Catholics call the witness of the early Christians? Tradition.” And at the end of that debate, I’m packing up my books into my satchel and all of a sudden I notice there is a very large human being standing right in front of me. And I look up from my table and there’s this man [inaudible 00:21:22] no kidding. He was like 6’7, 320 pounds. Huge, huge man. He looks down at me, he says, “Son.” I said, “Yes, sir?” He said, “I’m a deacon at this here church.” I said, “Yes, sir.” He goes, “Our boy didn’t really answer your question, did he?”
Cy Kellett:
Oh, man.
John Martignoni:
I said, “No, sir, he didn’t.” He said, “Well, you’ve given me a lot to think about.” I said, “That’s what these debates are for.”
Cy Kellett:
Oh, that … Well, a couple of things about that. One, if the big guy approves of what you said, that’s way better than if he had been mad at you. You don’t want that guy mad at you.
John Martignoni:
Oh, that’s for sure.
Cy Kellett:
And the other thing, I love John Martignoni, he had a debate just declaring himself the winner. I love that strategy. “I win.”
John Martignoni:
I win. He didn’t answer my question and he never did. So that’s why, like I said, these questions are easy common sense questions, but most people don’t ask them. And I can guarantee you unless the Protestants have talked to me or a few other people, they’ve never heard these questions either.
Cy Kellett:
No, and that’s the thing is the preaching that they’ve heard is often … I think that … Now, you’ve been both Protestant and Catholics, so you can tell me, but it seems-
John Martignoni:
Well, I was not Protestant, I was just out of-
Cy Kellett:
Oh, you were out of Catholic Church.
John Martignoni:
Yeah, I was just out of the Church.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. But it does seem to me that, from what I hear, from the impression that I get is that it would be more common for a Protestant preacher to address Catholic belief in a sermon than it would be for a Catholic preacher. Catholic preachers are often … I mean, Catholics wouldn’t learn anything from church about Protestantism. But part of that is because protest has to have something to protest against.
John Martignoni:
Correct.
Cy Kellett:
And so the question has never come up. Well, yeah, what if this thing … I mean, for many people, I think, what if this thing that we are protesting against actually makes more sense than what we’re doing? I do think that that’s what you’re doing is … Maybe it happened in the case of that deacon, I hope it did. To ask, well, wait a second, is that actually … I mean, the preacher, if you had not been dogged in saying, “Hey, you didn’t answer my question,” it would’ve gone on and simply just not existed as a question. You had to come back at it three, four times even to get it acknowledged as a question.
John Martignoni:
Yes. And I debated one time a relatively famous I think Protestant apologist in Wilmington, North Carolina one time several years ago. First thing he does when he gets up, starts railing on infallibility. And again, like I said earlier, “No man is infallible. No man … ” I mean, he just kept repeating it over and over. “No man is infallible.” So I got up and first thing I said, “So no man is infallible, right?” He says, “Correct.” I said, “That would include you, wouldn’t it?” And he looked at me. I said, “So everything you just said could be wrong, couldn’t it?” And he didn’t answer. And I just stared at him for a couple seconds and I kept talking.
But every time I got up after that, for the formal presentations, and then we did a Q&A, a back and forth, as well. Every single time after he said something and I got up, I said, “That was in your fallible opinion, correct?” And he never answered me. Everybody after the debate, Catholic and non-Catholic, out in the hallways and everything of the building we were in, the auditorium, everybody was talking about, “He never answered him. That is his fallible opinion, isn’t it?” That’s all they remembered about the entire … Which is fine with me because that was a seed being planted. You are giving me your fallible opinion about what I believe, number one, which how dare you do that. But number two, about the word of God. You’re not giving me the word of God. You’re giving me the word of Jim or the word of Pat or whoever you are.
Cy Kellett:
But often calling it the word of … By saying, “The word of God says this.” But the easiest argument against this, I think, is to listen to two different Christian radio stations. Because on one hand, the word of God is saying this over here, and the person will start speaking in tongues or whatnot in the midst of giving you their sermon. And then on this other station, speaking in tongues is more or less forbidden by the scripture.
John Martignoni:
Right. Right. That’s why I’ve got, in the first half of the book, one of my … actually, it’s a two part chapter. But one of the chapters or two of the chapters is there is no Protestant catechism and that’s one of the problems with Protestantism. And people say, “Well, no, no, the Lutherans have a catechism and the Methodists have a … ” I say, “Yeah, yeah. For a particular denomination.” I said, “Any given denomination might have their own particular catechism.” I said, “But for Protestantism, there is no catechism.”
Cy Kellett:
Right. No.
John Martignoni:
I said, “And why is that?” Because let’s say Protestantism, the catechism, the subject is the rapture. Well, Protestant belief, a pre tribulation rapture. But then it’s also Protestant belief that there’s a mid-tribulation rapture. Other Protestants believe in a post tribulation rapture. Some Protestants believe in all three raptures. Some Protestants don’t believe in a rapture. So your Protestant catechism would have to be about 10 times larger than the Catholic catechism in order to incorporate all the varying and differing beliefs about any given topic within Protestantism, much less what the Catholics believe about it. So yeah, it’s crazy what goes on out there.
Cy Kellett:
Well, I wasn’t going to ask you about this, but you wrote this in the book. Because of what you just said, I feel like I should ask you about this. Because I think the response that you’ll get from many Protestants is, well, on the essential things, what the Bible teaches as essentials, we agree on that.
John Martignoni:
Right. And my answer to that always is, well, where is that table in the Bible?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Where’s the list of essentials?
John Martignoni:
Yeah. They’ll say, “What … ” Well, actually, what I’ll do is if there’s a Bible handy, I pick up a Bible, I go, “Essential versus non-essential?” And they go, “Right.” So I’ll look in the table of contents, then I’ll flip back to the indices and I’ll say, “I don’t see it. Where is it?” And they’ll go, “Where’s what?” “Well, the table that tells me which part of the word of God is essential and which part is non-essential.” Because I tell them, I said, “If all of your beliefs, all of your doctrines come from the word of God,” I said, “Doesn’t the word of God say that man shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God? It doesn’t say, ‘Man shall live by every essential word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'” I said, “So give me which parts of the word of God are non-essential.” And they’re like, “Well, you worship Mary.” It’s like-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, right, right. Then we’re off to the races on that. Yeah. Okay. Again, with the weird questions, I’m just going to ask you about this one before I let you go. “Is a dead body really a body?” That is not even from this book. Why do you ask questions like that? That’s from a different book. What are you even talking about, asking a question like that?
John Martignoni:
Yeah. Is a dead body really a body? The reason I asked that, and that’s actually the first question in the second section of the book, people go, “What does that have to do with the Bible? That’s got nothing to … ” Well, actually it does, and it has a lot to do with Protestant dogma. Because in sola fide, salvation by faith alone, what you’ll hear often, I mean often, to justify the belief in salvation by faith alone, sola fide, people will say, “Well, if people don’t have works … ” Because all through scripture, particularly the New Testament, it talks about how you’ll be judged by your works. How works, and particularly in James, Chapter Two, it talks about works. Faith without works is dead, et cetera. What you’ll hear in responses, “Well, faith without works really isn’t faith.” “Oh, where does the Bible say that?” “Well, it doesn’t, but it’s implied throughout.” And they’ll give you a verse or two.
I say, “Well, wait a minute, let me ask you this. Is a dead body really a body?” And the answer will be, “Yes, absolutely.” I say, “All the bodies down at the morgue, those are real bodies, right?” “Yes.” So then I take them to James 2:26. It says, “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” I’ll tell them, I said, “Let’s look at what scripture’s doing here. It’s making an analogy.” The body apart from the spirit is dead. So faith apart from works is dead. So it’s analogizing faith to the body and works to the spirit. So if body and spirit are separated, you have physical death, which implies, and I’ll say it doesn’t prove, I always present evidence. I said, “So faith apart from works implies spiritual death.” I said, “That’s the analogy that’s being made here.” I said, “And faith is being analogized to the body.” I said, “So a dead body is really a body, so faith without works is dead. It doesn’t say it’s not really faith. It’s really faith. It’s just-
Cy Kellett:
Dead.
John Martignoni:
-dead faith.” And that’s where you’ll get, “Well, you worship Mary,” or something.
Cy Kellett:
Keep bringing it back to her. Yeah.
John Martignoni:
Well, it’s just they change the topic because I, as a Protestant, Baptist, evangelical, I don’t have anything to reply to this question.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, and that’s why you want … Man, that’s the whole point of the book is, again, it’s not you can’t answer this question because you’re an ignorant person. It’s you can’t answer this question because these questions don’t have answers as long as you hold onto what you’re holding onto.
John Martignoni:
Exactly by Protestant theology, if you’re going by Protestant theology, you cannot … your choice in answering these questions to actually give a direct substantive answer to these questions I ask, you either have to contradict … Let’s say, if you say yes or no, one of the answers. I ask a lot of yes and no questions. If you answer one way, you’ve contradicted your theology. If you answer the other way, you’ve contradicted scripture. So you’re in a bit of a bind here. And like you said, it’s not because you’re dumb or stupid or ignorant or anything. It’s because your theology is failing you on this. Your theology is not systematic. It does not make sense.
Cy Kellett:
And that is the message. John Martignoni, give us the updated title of the book. I don’t want to give the wrong title.
John Martignoni:
It is A Blue Collar Answer to Protestantism, subtitle, Catholic Questions Protestants Can’t Answer.
Cy Kellett:
And it’s coming out in October, so look around for it. You can find it. John Martignoni, thank you very, very much. I always enjoy talking with you.
John Martignoni:
The same here, Cy. It’s been a pleasure.
Cy Kellett:
And that will do it for us. A couple notes for you. One, we have other podcasts, and I want to suggest that maybe you’ll check out those other podcasts. You can find Joe Heschmeyer’s Shameless Popery over at shamelessjoe.com. You can find Carlos’ weekly Bible study at … What’s the … Oh, sundaycatholicword.com. Just look up Sunday Catholic Word. And of course, Trent Horn’s podcast. You can find it trenthornpodcast.com. That does it for us. I’m Cy Kellett, your host. We’ll see you next time, God willing, right here on Catholic Answers Focus.