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The author of Purgatory Is for Real tackles a tough philosophical question — is my soul made to last forever? If so, how do we know this? If not, what could happen that would destroy the life of my soul?
Cy Kellett:
Is there something immortal about you? Karlo Broussard next. Hello and welcome to Focus, the Catholic Answers podcast for living, understanding, and defending your Catholic faith. I’m Cy Kellett, your host, and I really enjoy talking with Karlo Broussard and maybe go at little technical this time, but that’s my fault. I kind of led Karlo into that because I wanted to talk about something that you just can’t talk about without using philosophy, something that Karlo does really well and is really effective at, but that means you got to use some abstract terms and that kind of thing. So I hope that you’ll find it enlightening. I certainly did. I feel like I just learned so much from Karlo when I ask him basic questions like, “What is the soul?” That’s what we did last time in this little two-part series.
Cy Kellett:
This time we asked him about the immortality of the human soul. Can we prove that it’s immortal? Why is it immortal? How do we show that it’s immortal? So we got into some Thomas Aquinas and others and I really hope you’ll enjoy the conversation because the soul is one of those neglected realities that is just so important. The truth of our existence as [ensouled 00:01:14] creatures is one that’s often denied, often just ignored in the modern world, but once we get it, man, life is an adventure and we see so much more of what it’s about. Here’s Karlo.
Cy Kellett:
Karlo Broussard, apologist, thank you for being here with us.
Karlo Broussard:
Well thank you for having me.
Cy Kellett:
This is, again, on my own initiative. I wanted you to explain the soul and the immortality of the soul because I find it very, very hard to think about these things.
Karlo Broussard:
It is.
Cy Kellett:
I thought it was very helpful what we did last time. So you told us what a soul is last time.
Karlo Broussard:
Right.
Cy Kellett:
You want to just sum it up real quick what a soul is?
Karlo Broussard:
Yeah, basically what we talked about was a soul is that in virtue of which that by which a living thing is a living thing, right?
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
It’s the life principle of something. It’s that principle in a thing that makes it a living thing rather than a nonliving thing because we’ve got to account for the difference between the two.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
The rock and the plant as we talked about last time, but also, the soul it not only that principle and virtue of which a thing is a living thing. It’s also that in virtue of which a living thing is the kind of living thing it is.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
Whether it’s a plant soul or an animal soul or a human being soul, right? That’s basically what we’re talking about there, that the soul is the form of the body.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
That in virtue of which the living thing is the kind of living thing it is. It makes it to be what it is, that organizational pattern that’s making the matter, the stuff to be that kind of thing, a plant, a lion-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
… or a human being.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
So it’s not only the principle that makes it living, but it’s also that principle in virtue of which it is the kind of living thing that it is.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. All that having been said, I have to admit to a certain bias. I’m more interested in human souls-
Karlo Broussard:
Right.
Cy Kellett:
… than the other kind. I think that I have some self-interest there. Basically, two questions this time about can a soul, any soul-
Karlo Broussard:
Right.
Cy Kellett:
… whether it’s plant, animal, human, whatever, survive death?
Karlo Broussard:
Bodily death?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Then if one of these types of souls, plant, animal, human, can survive death, is it immortal? Will it live forever?
Karlo Broussard:
Right. Yeah.
Cy Kellett:
Will it break down?
Karlo Broussard:
I’m glad you distinguished those two questions because they are distinct questions. So it’s one thing to show that a soul can survive bodily death, but just because a soul can survive bodily death, that doesn’t tell us whether it will eventually go out of existence, right? So it doesn’t really tell us that it is immortal or will forever exist after the separation from the body or the matter. More philosophical investigation is required for that.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
This is an interesting distinction that I’m grateful to a philosopher by the name of Michael Augros and his book The Immortal You.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
A few times in our conversation will be appealing to some of the things he says in his book. He draws this distinction between these two questions and it’s a distinction that’s important. The second question, once we answer that first question specifically relative to human souls-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
… answering the second question is not that difficult. It doesn’t require that much effort, but it is important to draw the distinction between those two questions because the answer to the first does not necessarily entail the answer to the second.
Cy Kellett:
Which is fascinating because you think if the soul survives death, that means the soul just getting going and going and going, but that’s not necessarily true.
Karlo Broussard:
Not necessarily.
Cy Kellett:
You got to prove a second thing.
Karlo Broussard:
That’s right. There are ways in which things can go out of existence and so we have to see if-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
… a soul that survives bodily death where whether talking about a soul of a plant, an animal, or human being-
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
… would fit the bill so to speak and meet one of those ways in which something could go out of existence.
Cy Kellett:
It’s interesting to me too that you answer these two questions that we have, whether the soul survives, can survive, and whether it’s immortal, using philosophy. You don’t have to just-
Karlo Broussard:
Right.
Cy Kellett:
… appeal … As a matter of fact, you don’t appeal to scripture.
Karlo Broussard:
That is correct. Could we? Could we look to divine revelation in order to derive knowledge about the soul, in particular the human soul? I don’t know if we could derive anything about non-rational animals or-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
… lions or dogs or anything from the Bible. I’d have to look into that, but with regard to human souls, we could say, “Yeah, human souls are immortal from divine revelation.” But yeah, what we’re doing here is purely by the natural light of human reason. That’s basically just saying, “Hey, we’re using our own [conoggin 00:05:48] here without the aid of God’s supernatural revelation to try to figure this stuff out.”
Cy Kellett:
Okay. So we’ll get to the first question then about can a soul survive bodily death.
Karlo Broussard:
Right. Yeah, so the key question here, and I’m looking to St. Thomas Aquinas of course, following him and using him as a guide in answering these questions, right? A key question in order to answer that question, can a soul survive bodily death, for St. Thomas Aquinas following Aristotle would be whether a soul has activities that are not entirely bound up with and dependent on matter.
Cy Kellett:
On the matter. Right.
Karlo Broussard:
To state it positively, a soul would have to have … The key question is whether a soul has activities that, of themselves, can be exercised or performed independent of the body-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
… in a way that’s transcending the boundaries of matter.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
The reason why this is a key question, Cy, is based upon a fundamental philosophical principle, a base principle that action follows being. Action, the activity of something, is going to follow the mode-
Cy Kellett:
Of its being.
Karlo Broussard:
… of its being or of its existence.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. Right.
Karlo Broussard:
You could also flip it around and say something’s mode of existence or mode of being, its nature is going to determine its activities.
Cy Kellett:
Right. The fish swims because it’s a fish, not the fish is a fish because it swims.
Karlo Broussard:
Right.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
So the plant, the plant is going to grow, take in nutrition because it has the mode of existing as a plant, not a rock.
Cy Kellett:
Got it.
Karlo Broussard:
The lion is going to sense things because it has the mode of existing as a lion-
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
… not a plant, not a rock. A human being is going to have rational knowledge and love because it has the mode of existing as a human being-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
… not a non-rational animal like a lion or not a plant, not a rock. So action follows being. The mode of the activity follows from the mode of a thing’s existence, the mode of its being.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
So if we apply that to a soul, if a soul has no activities that transcend the boundaries of matter … To state it differently, if a soul only has activities that are entirely bound up with and dependent on matter-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
… that’s activity.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
Then it follows that-
Cy Kellett:
That tells us something about the being.
Karlo Broussard:
That tells us something about its being, about its-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
… way of living, its way of existing.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
Its way of existing then is only going to be bound up with and dependent on matter-
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
… because action follows being.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
To state it differently yet again, if a soul does not have any activities that can go beyond the boundaries of matter, well then the soul’s way of existing is not going to be beyond-
Cy Kellett:
Beyond the matter. Right.
Karlo Broussard:
… the matter. So if a soul has a way of existing, a way of being that’s entirely bound up with and dependent on matter, then when the matter’s no longer there, it’s not going to be able to live its existence anymore.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
It’s not going to be able to have that mode of existence. It’s going to go out of existence.
Cy Kellett:
So that seems obvious then that the plant soul is going to cease when the plant experiences physical death because there’s just nothing about a plant that shows any signs of exceeding just taking in nutrition and growing.
Karlo Broussard:
Right. The power-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
… that’s actualized, right?
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
The activities of the plant in virtue of its power is rooted in the form of the plant, the plant’s soul-
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
… what philosophers call the vegetative soul, right?
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
Those powers, those activities are entirely bound up with and dependent on the matter. Nutrition and growth, that’s just entirely bound up with matter. That’s pretty obvious. So because the activities are entirely bound up with and dependent upon the matter, not transcending the boundaries of matter-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
… we’re able to infer from that that its mode of being, its mode of existence, its life so to speak-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
… is entirely bound up with and dependent on the matter such that when the matter ain’t there-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
… its life ain’t there. So it ceases to exist. So that would be for a plant. So the question becomes, “Well what about non-rational animals like the-”
Cy Kellett:
It’s not as obvious with a lion.
Karlo Broussard:
Correct. What about for a lion?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
For Aquinas, Aquinas and many philosophers who follow him judge intellectually that, say, a lion and these sorts of animals are non-rational animals, right?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
So for these types of beings, they do not have any activities that go above sensation. Now, there are some philosophers who will debate that-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, sure.
Karlo Broussard:
… and try to push back on that and say, “No, there’s not an essential difference between human beings and a lion or a dog. There’s only difference of degree in its activities and its powers.” Okay?
Cy Kellett:
I have to say I find that unlikely.
Karlo Broussard:
I find that … I’m not persuaded by those arguments.
Cy Kellett:
No.
Karlo Broussard:
I’m persuaded by Aquinas, but we can actually put that off-
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
… to the side-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, yeah. Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
… as to whether the lion has a soul that’s going to have activities that go beyond matter and we can actually just be a little bit more general and say, “Well okay. Let’s look at the powers of sensation and sensory activities.”
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
These sorts of powers are powers that are entirely bound up with and dependent on matter. So let’s just take, for example, our power to see things. When we see things, we’re exercising that power under the conditions of matter. That power and its activity of sight, the activity of sight is restricted to the conditions of matter. So when I see something, I see this man, right? Particularity.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, I see what you’re saying.
Karlo Broussard:
I see-
Cy Kellett:
Okay. Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
… this man on the … Let’s see here. Right side of that desk.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
Spatial relationship. I see this quantity-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, this piece of paper.
Karlo Broussard:
… being more-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
… than that quantity of the plant, right?
Cy Kellett:
Right. So they’re relative to one another.
Karlo Broussard:
That’s right. So notice that when I’m exercising the power of sight, I’m taking in information-
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Karlo Broussard:
… but the information is bound up with, restricted-
Cy Kellett:
Absolutely.
Karlo Broussard:
… unto and under the conditions of matter, particularity, this man as opposed to that man over there-
Cy Kellett:
Or all men.
Karlo Broussard:
Or all men, that’s correct. The man here, not there, spatial relationship. The quantity of you relative to the quantity of the plant.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
These are all conditions of matter. So notice how this information is coming in under the conditions of matter and when I’m exercising that power of sight, it’s bound up with and restricted to the conditions of matter. So if a soul, right? If a soul only has these sorts of powers, if the highest powers or activities of a soul is sensation and these powers of sensation are entirely bound up with and under the conditions of matter-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
… well then we would be able to infer that the life of such a soul-
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Karlo Broussard:
… the existence of such a soul would be entirely bound up with and dependent on matter such that when the body goes, that soul would no longer exist.
Cy Kellett:
Because it’s not sensing anything.
Karlo Broussard:
That’s right.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
Think of it like this. If a soul only informs a body to be a living thing-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
… well then and that’s the only power it has, well then when the body goes, it’s going to cease to exist because just living, nutrition and growth, is bound up and entirely dependent upon the matter. If the soul only has the powers of informing the matter in making it a living thing and a sentient thing like sensations, sensory powers, well since those activities are entirely bound up with and dependent upon the matter, once the matter goes, no more existence.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. So the question that I think is do humans have something other than that?
Karlo Broussard:
That is the key question, right?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
Now, we could inquire, ask, “Okay. So whether the lion or the Fido the dog-”
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
“… has this kind of soul that only has sensory powers which are entirely bound up with matter and when the matter ceases to exist, the soul goes out of existence?”
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
That’s a different question, right?
Cy Kellett:
Right. We don’t have to settle that.
Karlo Broussard:
We don’t have to settle that. I think the arguments that say-
Cy Kellett:
That it does not.
Karlo Broussard:
… it only has such a soul as that and not something beyond, I think, are more persuasive, but let’s talk about whether the human soul has a soul that has powers that would go beyond sensory powers, right?
Cy Kellett:
And this, it seems an … I mean we’re talking into microphones right now. The fact … The amount of abstracting and understanding the rules of the universe and of commerce and all that that has to go that you and I are speaking into microphones now and no lion ever has sat down with a-
Karlo Broussard:
That would be a reasonable-
Cy Kellett:
That would be a heck of a lion.
Karlo Broussard:
… argument to give us plausible knowledge-
Cy Kellett:
We just seem different.
Karlo Broussard:
… that the lion would not have the type of soul that we have, that we have some sort of activities-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
… that would go beyond sensory powers and activities.
Cy Kellett:
Right. I don’t want to just walk past that common sense impression because I think it’s reasonable.
Karlo Broussard:
Yes.
Cy Kellett:
When you see cities, that’s a different thing than seeing an anthill.
Karlo Broussard:
Right.
Cy Kellett:
So this should give us a clue something is going on with the-
Karlo Broussard:
Sure.
Cy Kellett:
… human and it’s perfectly reasonable to discuss what is that thing.
Karlo Broussard:
Right.
Cy Kellett:
So how does … Well Aquinas is your man. So how does Aquinas talk about this?
Karlo Broussard:
Yeah, so we, when we analyze our activities as rational animals, we discover that we have a power to know things by virtue of our intellect in a way that is not entirely bound up with and dependent on matter, but it’s exercised in a way that transcends the boundaries of matter to be able to attain something, some knowledge-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
… in a way that’s not restricted to the conditions of matter. So let’s take a triangle for example. We could have a red triangle, blue triangle, a yellow triangle, a black triangle. We know what? They’re all triangles-
Cy Kellett:
They’re all triangles. Right.
Karlo Broussard:
… regardless of what color they are. We can draw a triangle on the sand on the beach.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
We could draw a triangle on a piece of paper with some ink. We could draw a triangle on the chalkboard. So sand, chalk, ink. No matter what the triangle it made out of, guess what?
Cy Kellett:
It’s still a triangle.
Karlo Broussard:
We know it’s a triangle.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
So far, we’re able to know what a triangle is independent of the condition of its material makeup-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
… or the color it is, right?
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
We’re also able to know what a triangle is independent of particular triangles. So I might draw a triangle there on that piece of paper and you draw a triangle on that piece of paper over there and I can know still that both are triangles. My knowledge of what a triangle is is not restricted to that particular triangle-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
… or that particular triangle over there.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
Another example would be just human beings, right? If we have Plato, Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, we judge all three are human beings.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
But my knowledge of what a human being is is not restricted and bounded by the particularity of that man, this man, or that man, Socrates, Plato, or Aristotle. It’s my knowledge of what a human being is not restricted to the quantity of this man, that man, and that man-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
… or the spatial relationship between the two. Speaking of spatial relationship, even if I consider what a man is, the concept of the human being, and what a triangle is, the concept of triangularity, in my mind it makes no sense to say, “Well the concept of man is on the right of the concept of the-”
Cy Kellett:
No, right.
Karlo Broussard:
“… triangle.” Right?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, where is an idea?
Karlo Broussard:
That’s right.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
So even the question begins to give us a clue-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
… into how the way in which I am operating, this activity of knowing what a man is, of knowing what a triangle is is not restricted to the boundaries or the conditions of matter. Right?
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Karlo Broussard:
So that gives me an insight into the fact that well if I have an activity that’s not bounded and restricted to the conditions of matter, I’m able to act in a way that’s transcending matter.
Cy Kellett:
Clearly, yes.
Karlo Broussard:
It’s exercised apart … It’s not entirely bound up with matter. It’s being exercised apart from matter. Since action follows being, the mode of action follows the mode of being, I’m able to infer and make the conclusion that the mode of being of the soul, its life, its way of existing would not be entirely bound up with and dependent on matter, but would transcend matter.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
And thus once the matter goes away, the soul would still have a life existing.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
Here’s a great analogy to help us understand this by philosopher Michael Augros in his book The Immortal You. I think Ignatius Press published it. This is a great example. Consider a workaholic.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
A workaholic is only going to find life purpose, his life is restricted within his work and he’s going to have a hard time living the life of retirement outside the boundaries of work-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
… because he’s invested everything into his work. So once the work goes away, he doesn’t really have a life anymore, right?
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
But we know objectively speaking, he does, but subjectively, he’s going to have a hard time with retirement-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
… as opposed to the individual who fosters a life outside of work.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
Whenever he retires and work goes away, he’s going to enjoy retirement. I think I might be the workaholic one because I really enjoy my work.
Cy Kellett:
I’m definitely the retirement guy. I have a very … Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
So the soul and the life of the soul relative to the body is kind of like the life of the worker relative to his life, right?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
So if a soul has a life that’s only bound up with the conditions of matter, well then once the matter goes, the soul is not going to have a life anymore. That’s just another way of saying that a soul that only has activities that are bound up with the matter, once the matter goes, those activities can’t exist nor can the life of the soul exist, but if a soul has a life that’s not bound up with the matter, then it would be able to exist without the matter. So does the human soul have that kind of life? The answer is yes because we have activities that are not entirely bound up with and dependent on matter. Therefore, we have a way, our soul, human soul has a way of existing, mode of being, that is not entirely bound up with matter.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
Not entirely dependent upon matter, but transcends matter and so once the matter goes, once the body separates and we have bodily death, the soul would be able to continue to exist. This is how St. Thomas Aquinas argues and thinks, many philosophers following him think through this issue and arriving at the answer to the question can the human soul survive bodily death.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
And the answer being yes.
Cy Kellett:
It’s interesting that in modern philosophy, the argument now is about consciousness and how can matter produce consciousness and all that. In the 1200s, Aquinas is so far beyond that because-
Karlo Broussard:
Yeah, he’s looking at a particular operation, a particular activity, what philosophers call abstraction, right? So when I see you and Chris in the studio and Darren in the studio, I abstract from these particulars-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
… the universal idea, form, essence, nature of what a human being is and that form, essence, concept of what a human being is is known in a universal way independent of the particulars-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
… outside of the boundaries of the conditions of matter or spatial relationship, quantity, color, et cetera.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
That is the insight. That’s the clue-
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Karlo Broussard:
… that the existence of the soul would be able to transcend matter, be beyond matter, survive without matter because the activity is operating in a way that’s not entirely bound up with the matter. Once again, action follows being. So in order to know the being, we look at the activity.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
And this activity of abstraction, intellectual knowledge or conceptual knowledge, rational knowledge, these are all different ways of describing the same thing, is the clue to arriving at the conclusion that the existence or the mode of being of the soul is going to not be entirely bound up with matter, but be able to exist once the matter goes away.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. So the soul will survive our bodily death. Then the next question, as Michael Augros would kind of put it, would be then, “Well but how long will it-”
Karlo Broussard:
Yeah, right.
Cy Kellett:
“… survive bodily death?” Because maybe it could dissolve over time. It could break apart.
Karlo Broussard:
Maybe just go out of existence in some way, right?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
Yeah. So we have to ask a question what are the ways in which something can go out of existence? Okay?
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Karlo Broussard:
Then we have to investigate and see if the human soul meets one of those criteria.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
Does the human soul fit the bill so to speak for one of those ways in which a thing can go out of existence? So one way in which something could go out of existence is when you have something breaking apart, right? Whatever’s composed of parts-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
… can eventually-
Cy Kellett:
Break.
Karlo Broussard:
… break apart.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
So can the human soul which we already said can survive bodily death, can the human soul break apart? Well the answer would be no because the human soul is immaterial. We know that because we have this activity of conceptual knowledge-
Cy Kellett:
Which is not material, yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
… which is transcending matter, having a life, an operation of its own independent of the body, and so it’s not confined to the boundaries of matter. So it’s beyond matter. It’s immaterial. If the human soul is immaterial, well then it’s not made up of parts and if it’s not made up of parts, well then it can’t break apart.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. So one way of-
Karlo Broussard:
Going out of existence.
Cy Kellett:
… going out of existence is to break apart-
Karlo Broussard:
That’s right.
Cy Kellett:
… like the sandcastle when the wave comes. Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
My kids are actually at the beach right now.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
So they might be building a sandcastle and the waves come-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
… it’ll break apart.
Cy Kellett:
Or like our bodies will-
Karlo Broussard:
That’s right.
Cy Kellett:
… eventually by microorganisms and whatnot, break apart. The soul can’t do that because it’s not material.
Karlo Broussard:
It’s immaterial.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
That’s right.
Cy Kellett:
Another way that something could go out of existence?
Karlo Broussard:
When that one thing-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah
Karlo Broussard:
When one thing that’s made up of form and matter-
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Karlo Broussard:
… so the plant, the animal, even the human being, soul, body, whenever you have a separation of the form and the matter, the one substantial thing that was composed of the form and the matter goes out of existence. So whenever the tree … The tree is made of form and matter.
Cy Kellett:
Sure.
Karlo Broussard:
The matter is of course the stuff, the material stuff, and the form is the vegetative organism that has a trunk growing upward with branches going lateral, parallel to the ground so to speak.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
Just sort of a general sketch of the form perhaps of the organizational pattern of the matter. So once the tree loses its form, the soul and the body separate. That tree as a single individual thing no longer exists. Now, given what we already said, that the only powers that the tree has is nutrition and growth, it’s entirely bound up with matter, once the matter’s going, the soul’s not going to exist anymore. So the soul of the tree is not going to be able to survive the bodily death, but notice it’s the separation, right? We can tell when we have a dead tree. We talked about this last time. Whatever form those individual material parts are taking on might be hard to determine and discern, but nevertheless, it’s no longer a unified living thing. Right?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
It’s a dead tree.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
So the form and the matter has separated so we might call it a tree.
Cy Kellett:
Sure.
Karlo Broussard:
But it’s no longer a tree in the philosophical sense.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
Right? So that’s one way for something to go out of existence when you have a separation of form and matter. So the question is can the soul be separated from its form? The human soul, that is.
Cy Kellett:
Oh.
Karlo Broussard:
Right?
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
Aquinas actually uses this line of reasoning and the answer is no because the soul, the rational soul doesn’t have a form. It is-
Cy Kellett:
It is the form. Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
It is a form, right?
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
So it can’t be separated from itself. So the human soul could not go out of existence by way of being separated from its form because it is its own form.
Cy Kellett:
Right. Okay. So that means I’m going to live forever. Or is-
Karlo Broussard:
Not quite.
Cy Kellett:
Come on, Karlo. I was safe. I thought I was safe.
Karlo Broussard:
Actually, that’s partially true-
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
… by way of its own nature.
Cy Kellett:
Yes, I got you.
Karlo Broussard:
By way of its own nature. Left to itself given what the soul, the rational soul is-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
… it will live … The only other possible way for it to go out of existence is annihilation, but of course that would require something over and above what a rational soul is in order for it to go out of existence, annihilation by God. That would require divine power.
Cy Kellett:
That’s what I was going to say. It seemed like even an angel couldn’t annihilate a soul because the soul doesn’t have any parts. So only the ground of being itself could refuse to convey being to it.
Karlo Broussard:
That’s correct. What’s keeping the departed soul-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
… in being-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
… or existence is God himself who’s sustaining it in being-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
… because all being existence comes from the first cause, God himself who is the source of all being. So the only reason why the departed soul has the act of existence itself that in virtue of which it is something rather than nothing, right?
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Karlo Broussard:
Having existence is God. So the only way that the departed rational soul would be able to go out of existence, in no way would it go out of existence in virtue of its nature, right? It would only go out of existence in virtue of annihilation if God would cease to sustain the departed soul in being. So the question becomes well would God do that? Well technically, He has the power to do that like God-
Cy Kellett:
But it’s not illogical.
Karlo Broussard:
Correct. God theoretically could cease to sustain a departed soul in being, but would He do that? Philosophers, majority of philosophers at least following St. Thomas Aquinas and I think it’s the true position is the answer is no because it would violate God’s wisdom. God has created a rational soul to be such that it’s immortal.
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Karlo Broussard:
So for God to annihilate it would be to act in a way that violates the very nature that He created the thing with.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
So the bottom line is why would God create an immortal soul only to make it go out of existence?
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
It would be contrary to reason. It would be contrary to wisdom. So I think it’s a reasonable conclusion to say that given the fact that God creates a human soul, he’s going to forever keep it in existence. Otherwise, He’d be acting contrary to his all wise, all reasonable nature because He is pure reason itself.
Cy Kellett:
Yes, and I imagine that that one might be hard and people might … That might be hard for people especially given the idea of there are two states after death, eternal reward and eternal punishment, but that’s a different issue and I don’t want to get all into that.
Karlo Broussard:
Correct.
Cy Kellett:
But it does seem to me that when you think of the human soul as a gift bestowed, it is a self bestowed on that self. God gave me to me in a certain way, right?
Karlo Broussard:
You would have to exist in order to give you to yourself.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
I don’t know if I’m going to follow you on that trail.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. That’s fine, but-
Karlo Broussard:
But the gift … God grants me the gift of existence-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
… the mode of which is me, Karlo.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
Right?
Cy Kellett:
Yes, and so it would … Okay. So all I was trying to get at, it contradicts his own wisdom and goodness to say, “Well now I’m going to deprive you of that.”
Karlo Broussard:
Right. It’s kind of like this. Imagine this. You’re in the heat of Southern Louisiana, right?
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
It’s heat index 105 right now. It’s humid, hot. You need some air condition, right?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
So you build a house and you build the house with an AC.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
And the purpose the AC is to cool off the house. So you build the house with the AC, but when you move in, you never turn on the AC and so you sweat to death, right?
Cy Kellett:
Right. Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
It would be kind of like that. Why-
Cy Kellett:
Why would you do something stupid like that?
Karlo Broussard:
Why would you build a house with an AC if you’re never going to use the AC?
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
By way of analogy, it would be unreasonable for God to create a rational soul that by nature-
Cy Kellett:
By nature.
Karlo Broussard:
… is immortal-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
… only to thwart that nature and make it cease to exist.
Cy Kellett:
Gotcha. Okay. So the two things that we come away with, just to kind of sum up because I really do enjoy these conversations, I’m really grateful to you-
Karlo Broussard:
Well thank you for the opportunity-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, I’m really-
Karlo Broussard:
… to chat with you about it.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, because the soul, I just think it’s a tough one.
Karlo Broussard:
It is.
Cy Kellett:
I’m really in favor of having a soul and for living forever. So I just wanted to kind of get some intellectual grounding for that, but so the two things we come away with today then are, one, my soul-
Karlo Broussard:
Human soul.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, the human soul by nature will survive bodily death.
Karlo Broussard:
Correct.
Cy Kellett:
And that survival is permanent.
Karlo Broussard:
It is permanent because by nature-
Cy Kellett:
You’re going to live forever.
Karlo Broussard:
… it is immortal.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
This is an important topic when we’re talking about the afterlife, right?
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Karlo Broussard:
We’re talking about heaven and the bodily resurrection and all of that. Now, there is an interesting question that comes up concerning … Because without that philosophical analysis, you could look to the Bible and say, “Yeah, we’re going to live after death,” but it doesn’t quite answer the question is the life after death a perpetual miracle of God giving us something over and above our nature?
Cy Kellett:
Our nature, yes.
Karlo Broussard:
Right?
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
Or is that life after death partially some natural life-
Cy Kellett:
That belongs to-
Karlo Broussard:
… that belongs to us after death?
Cy Kellett:
Right. Right.
Karlo Broussard:
So the philosophical analysis helps us answer that question-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
… to where we can say the soul will continue to exist after death in virtue of the nature it has as a rational soul.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
Now, there are going to be certain aspects of its life in the afterlife of heaven that is given to us by God over and above what is natural to the rational soul-
Cy Kellett:
Sure.
Karlo Broussard:
… departed from the body.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, like-
Karlo Broussard:
And even with the body and the bodily resurrection. So what this philosophical analysis provides us as a Christian looking also to divine revelation, you have sort of a natural basis for understanding partially the life of the departed rational soul-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
… but also a supernatural knowledge as well, a supernatural ground for understanding the life of the departed rational soul. So it’s a beautiful example. It’s case in point of where faith and reason are wedded together.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
That’s something to rejoice in because-
Cy Kellett:
It is indeed, Karlo.
Karlo Broussard:
… they’re not contradictory, but they’re in harmony with one another.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, right. Thank you so much, Karlo. I really appreciate it.
Karlo Broussard:
Thank you, Cy. God bless, man.
Cy Kellett:
You too. As I said at the beginning, you can’t ask Karlo Broussard, philosopher, to sit down with you and talk about the immortality of the soul and not ask for a bit of philosophical conversation, but I found that fascinating and I actually think we got to have these conversations from time to time and really try to dig in and get the old noggin cranking away on that, burn some wood up there, and see if we can come to some understanding because there is a dimension to ourselves, an aspect to ourselves for which there are all kinds of physical analogies that we can point to, but we can’t see it, taste it, smell it, touch it, hear it. So it’s uncomfortable for us moderns who really, really only want to talk about those sensory things that are available to our senses.
Cy Kellett:
So I hope you enjoyed it. I certainly enjoyed it. You’re welcome to send us an email, focus@catholic.com. Focus@catholic.com. Also if you’re listening on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or one of the other podcast things, give us that five-star review, a couple of nice words. That’ll help to grow the podcast. If you’re watching on YouTube, I think you know what to do now, but if you don’t, just life and subscribe. That helps us to grow. You can give us money because it takes money to do this and we’d appreciate your support. Givecatholic.com is where you go. Givecatholic.com. Once again, I’m Cy Kellett, your host. Really grateful for Karlo to take the time to explain my soul to me in the last couple episodes. We’ll see you next time, God willing, right here on Catholic Answers: Focus.