Apologist Karlo Broussard responds to a common atheist critique of the God of the Bible, that he is a narcissist whose ego makes him hungry for the worship of his creatures. Does the Bible really give us such a creepy Lord? And even if he is not creepy, why does he insist on worship?
THE ARTICLE:
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/is-it-egotistical-for-god-to-demand-your-love
Cy Kellett:
Is God an egocentric, narcissist maniac? Karlo Broussard, next. Hello, and welcome to Focus The Catholic Answers podcast for living, understanding, and defending your Catholic faith. I’m Cy Kellett, your host and I’m not exactly sure whether it’s an argument against the existence of God or just a complaint against God, but often you will see on the internet, in videos, in blog posts, and whatnot, this accusation that the Biblical God is nuts. He’s a maniac. He’s an egomaniac, He’s a narcissist. He wants people to worship him and if you don’t worship him, then bad things will happen to you.
And all of this is counted as a kind of, I suppose, it’s to make us think that belief in this God is silly, but we decided to take that accusation or that complaint about the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob seriously. And when you take these internet complaint, seriously, you turn to Karlo Broussard to straighten it out. “Karlo,” we asked, “Is God a maniac? Is he egotistical or is there some reason why He would want us to worship Him and love him above all things?” Here’s Karlo. Karlo Broussard, Catholic Answers apologist. Thanks for being with us.
Karlo Broussard:
Hey Cy, thanks for having me brother.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, this seems like a good one for you, and as a matter of fact I know you’ve written about it before, but a common theme among atheists is that God is some kind of… At least the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the way he’s portrayed in Scripture is some kind of maniacal, narcissistic, egomaniac, because you got to worship him. If you don’t worship him, bad things happen. Let me just say, if I were to insist on that, from my friends and neighbors, it would be fair to call me an egotistical maniac.
Karlo Broussard:
That is true because that would be a disordered self-love.
Cy Kellett:
Okay, all right.
Karlo Broussard:
Yeah. So this is actually a common, popular, atheistic charge against the God of classical theism, the God of Christian theism as well. And for example, a recent article that I posted for our Catholic Answers Magazine online, I refer to one named Andrew Jasko. He’s a self-described spiritual wellness coach.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
And he actually works with… He invites people to seek his help for him to coach them out of their religious beliefs to help them overcome the trauma they perceive to be caused by their religious beliefs. And he stated, “There’s no more grandiose or egotistical or insecure… There’s no one more,” Excuse me, “grandiose or egotistical or insecure than the Biblical God. In his mind, the whole universe exists solely to worship him.” And it’s very common, I had wrote a similar piece sometime back, and there was an article entitled God’s Psychological Profile by David Allen at Richard Dawkins Foundation For Reason and Science, on their website. And he’s speculating about if the hypothetical scenario of psychologists assessing God’s behavioral profile. And there too, David Allen asserts, God is narcissistic.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. If you were going to do a psychological profile…
Karlo Broussard:
He’s a narcissist.
Cy Kellett:
But you can’t do a psychological profile on God first of all.
Karlo Broussard:
Yeah. And this idea that God is a narcissist for demanding our love of him above all things that we love Him as the greatest good. And that we worship Him. We acknowledged that to be true. Right? We must love God above all things. We must adore Him and worship Him. And of course that’s based on a more fundamental truth that God loves himself above all things. Right? And so we have to sort of unpack that classical understanding of God, how God loves himself above all things answering the question is that egotistical? Is that conceded? Is that narcissistic? And then once we have that established, then it becomes clear of why God demanding for us to love Him and to worship Him is not egotistical. We’re not feeding the ego monster, you know, and he’s getting bigger.
Cy Kellett:
So if God were a thing like me, or a being like me, this would be egotistical in other words?
Karlo Broussard:
Yes. If you’re demanding that we love you above all other things.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
And that would be because you as a finite creature, as a finite being or a creature, you are not the greatest good that could possibly be desired. Or the greatest thing than which nothing greater could be conceived to quote St. Anselm.
Cy Kellett:
So part of the problem is a certain anthropomorphizing.
Karlo Broussard:
That’s right.
Cy Kellett:
That we’re not thinking about God as God. We’re thinking about God as like a really big man?
Karlo Broussard:
That’s right. You’re bringing God down to the finite level, the creaturely level.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
And then looking at Him as such and then thinking about the claim, oh, I got to worship Him above all of the things. Well, oh, okay. Well, that’s egotistical. That’s narcissistic. So we have to back up a little bit and think about God. And think about God as the supreme being and what He is as pure existence itself. Right? And so the reason why we say that God loves Himself above all things is because He Himself, as the infinite perfection of existence and infinite goodness in itself, He is the only reality that can possibly be a suitable target for His infinite love. Right?
Cy Kellett:
Ah, okay.
Karlo Broussard:
So God is, God is love. He’s pure love itself. He’s infinite in loving. Now, whenever you’re loving, you’re going to have a proportional target of that love, right? It’s kind of like the power of sight. There’s got to be some proportion there. The power of sight’s got to be proportionate to its object; namely seeing things rather than the power sight is proportion to seeing things rather than hearing things. Right?
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
So we asked the question, well, what is the proportionate target? The suitable target for God’s love? Well, given that His love is infinite, that’s an infinite power, the only suitable target is something infinite.
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Karlo Broussard:
There’s only one infinite reality, God Himself.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
Right? And so the primary target or object of God’s love is himself. Now, once we understand that… Now then we ask the question well, is that egotistical? Is that conceited? Well, let’s first define our terms. What do we mean by egotistical? Well, egotistical means an unwarranted esteem for oneself.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
Right? Sort of a disordered self-love. It’s a disordered focus on self it’s.
Cy Kellett:
Like anyone could recognize that I can love myself appropriately.
Karlo Broussard:
Right.
Cy Kellett:
But then I can also go, I am the greatest, I don’t know, free throw shooter. Well, that’s not true for one thing. And I suppose even if it was true, if I’m Steph Curry or whatever, to focus on that and just adore myself, that would be…
Karlo Broussard:
Unwarranted.
Cy Kellett:
Not warranted.
Karlo Broussard:
It would be an undue esteem that you’re ascribing to yourself. If you’re conceded, you’re going to ascribe a value to yourself that is out of due order, right? You’re sort of overestimating your own importance, ascribing to yourself or taking a position of a superiority that’s not due to you. So notice as we’re thinking through these terms of egotistical and conceded, the key motif here is that which is not due. It’s something unwarranted.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
It’s not due to you and you’re taking it or ascribing it to yourself like this esteem or superiority or power or respect. Right? Demanding respect that’s not due to you. Okay. So now we ask the question, well, does that map on to the classical understanding of God? Especially God loving Himself above all things, right?
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Karlo Broussard:
Well, when we think about God as the infinite perfection of existence itself, because remember He’s pure existence. Okay? He doesn’t have any potential to acquire some further aspect of being, right? If he did, He would be imperfect. But because He’s the perfect being, there’s no aspect of being that He has a potential to acquire. He’s just pure, perfect existence itself. And it follows from that that He’s pure goodness itself. Right? So not only is He “that than which no greater being can be conceived” quoting St. Anselm there in his Proslogion, God is also that greatest good than which there is no greater good to be done desired. Right?
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
Because He’s infinite goodness itself.
Cy Kellett:
And to love the greatest good with the greatest love is not disproportionate.
Karlo Broussard:
There you go. You’re on the right track here. So once we understand God is the perfection of existence itself and the supreme good or goodness itself, well, if He’s that supremely honorable being that’s pure goodness itself, well then He’s worthy of the highest honor, love, and esteem, right?
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
Okay. Well, if He’s worthy of the highest honor, love, and esteem as infinite perfection itself, as supreme goodness, well then God’s love of Himself above all other things is not disordered self-love. It’s rightly ordered self-love. So He’s loving himself in accord with who and what he is, right? The supreme good. The infinite perfection of existence itself.
Cy Kellett:
As a matter of fact, wouldn’t it be fair to say it would be disordered if he didn’t do that?
Karlo Broussard:
Exactly. Exactly spot on. If he did not… So let’s just think about what would be the consequences of God, not loving Himself above all things? Well, if that were the case, well then He would be imperfect. He would be lacking some perfection. So let’s say, for example, on supposition, we’re supposing here, God did not love Himself above all of the things. Okay. What either a) He doesn’t know that He’s the greatest good and the supreme honorable being that demands worthy worship and esteem, right? Either He doesn’t know that supreme honor and respect and esteem is due to Him, in which case he would be lacking in knowledge and He wouldn’t be God, right? Or He’s lacking in the appropriate attraction to the greatest good that He is.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
Well, if he’s lacking in the appropriate attraction that’s due to the supreme good, well then He would be lacking ultimately in love. He would be imperfect. So either way, He would be imperfect. So to say that, to hypothesize that God does not love Himself above all things, you introduce imperfection into God. But if you’re introducing imperfection into God well then you lose God, right? There’s no such thing as God. God wouldn’t exist, at least as classically conceived. So therefore, we can conclude that in order to have God as the supreme good, perfect existence itself, He must love himself above all other things. Once again, for if He didn’t, He wouldn’t be God.
Cy Kellett:
Well, I have a couple of questions about that. But I just want to go back to where we kind of started in a way, and that is that it’s important to remember who He is or this all goes astray.
Karlo Broussard:
Correct.
Cy Kellett:
This is one of those situations where overly using the metaphor or the simile of the human person for the divine is really harmful because, because this kind of love…
Karlo Broussard:
Can be harmful.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, yeah. Can be harmful.
Karlo Broussard:
Because there are some things we can project on to God in order to understand Him and how He relates to us. But we always have to make those qualifications of anthropomorphism.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
To acknowledge when we are anthropomorphizing God. Where the problem lies is when we project certain human emotions and human qualities on God and then conclude that is how God is.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
That’s where the problem lies.
Cy Kellett:
A failure to love Himself would be a failure to love what is good.
Karlo Broussard:
Supremely good.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. And that would be a real failure. So He must love Himself above all things.
Karlo Broussard:
Yeah. That would be… If I may just use the philosophical chart.
Cy Kellett:
Yes, please do.
Karlo Broussard:
In here to sort of satisfy my Thomas friends out there and the Aristotelian friends, there would be an unactualized potency here. Right?
Cy Kellett:
Ah, right.
Karlo Broussard:
He wouldn’t be fully actual, right? There would be something lacking.
Cy Kellett:
There’d be something he’s supposed to be doing that he’s not doing.
Karlo Broussard:
Amen. That’s the essence of imperfection, right? He would be falling short of that standard of pure actuality. Right? Pure existence and perfection. So given the fact that He is goodness itself, in other words there is no good, greater than God.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
Right? And the essence of love is to will the good right. To be attracted to the good, to pursue the good.
Cy Kellett:
Right. Right.
Karlo Broussard:
And so if God didn’t love Himself above all other things well then that would be disordered love. He wouldn’t be properly loving Himself. In which case He wouldn’t be God.
Cy Kellett:
All right. So I think we’re beginning to have an answer, but we still have to face the fact that God requires this of us, not just of Himself.
Karlo Broussard:
Correct.
Cy Kellett:
So that feels kind of bossy. I mean, I can see… Do you see what I’m saying?
Karlo Broussard:
Right.
Cy Kellett:
What am I to make of the God who insists upon love and worship?
Karlo Broussard:
Right. Well, think about it. If it’s not conceited or egotistical for God to love Himself above all things. Why? Because He is the greatest good He’s infinite goodness itself, there’s no good greater than God. Right? He’s the supreme honorable being, pure existence itself. So if it’s not conceited for God to love Himself above all things, well then it’s not conceited for Him to demand that we love him above all things. Right.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
Because He is not only the greatest supreme good, but He’s also our supreme good.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, so in a sense, we can’t be perfected in ourselves…
Karlo Broussard:
That’s correct.
Cy Kellett:
In a sense, his requiring us to worship Him and love Him is saying, be perfect.
Karlo Broussard:
That’s right. Because He has made us, He’s hard-wired us, right?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
He’s constructed us. He’s created us in such a way that we’re made for the good, right? And so we have to… It all gets back to like what we are as human beings and the way we’re constructed and the way we exist, our very reality as human beings. Think about this; we do not make any choices unless we perceive some good to be acquired. Right?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Right. We’re always trying…
Karlo Broussard:
We didn’t choose to come on this Catholic Answers Focus episode unless you perceive this to be good in some way? Good for yourself, good for others, people listening to us right now, et cetera.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
You would not have gotten out of bed this morning unless you perceived coming to work to be some good, right? Anything we do. The way you parted your hair this morning, Cy…
Cy Kellett:
No part.
Karlo Broussard:
Or the way I parted my hair.
Cy Kellett:
No hair, bald.
Karlo Broussard:
Or the way I shaved my head.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Right. You perceive a good?
Karlo Broussard:
I perceive a good. So the point is, is that we cannot get out of the fact that we’re made for goodness. We’re made for the good. And we’re not going to do anything unless we perceive some good to be acquired that we intuitively recognize is going to make us happy in some way, okay? Given the fact that God is the greatest good, right, there’s no good greater than God, He’s infinite goodness itself. We’re made for the good, therefore we’re made for God. So in directing our lives to Him as our ultimate end, our ultimate destiny, pursuing Him as our ultimate good well then that, Cy, is going to be perfective of my nature as a human being.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
Which means that… That’s just a fancy way, a philosophical way of saying it’s going to make me happy.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Right. That’s the key to my happiness.
Karlo Broussard:
So for God to demand us to pursue Him as the greatest good, the ultimate destiny, to love Him above all other goods, right?
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
Is simply him telling us to behave like a human. He’s telling us to act like human beings. Right? Because He’s looking out for our happiness. And now, Cy, I don’t know about you, but I don’t think there’s anything egotistical or narcissistic or self-serving in God looking out for our happiness.
Cy Kellett:
No, not at all. Not at all. You know one of the people you quoted, I was just thinking about this… You said it’s called the foundation, it’s called the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and science. So one of the ways… I just want to try to speak in a way that addresses that person. If you love to be reasonable, if that’s a very high, good.
Karlo Broussard:
Good insight.
Cy Kellett:
Then this is one way we can talk to you about why you should love God and worship God.
Karlo Broussard:
Above all things. And worship him.
Cy Kellett:
Because is there some good thing that you want to say no to, that would be unreasonable. If some part of good… That you would be being an unreasonable person not to pursue the highest good. Do you think that’s a fair argument?
Karlo Broussard:
Well put indeed. If we want to be reasonable we’re asking what are the reasons behind worshiping God and pursuing Him as the highest good above all other goods.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
Well that’s only going to be reasonable if God, in fact, is the highest good, the greatest good.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
That than which there is no greater good to pursue.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
Now that’s a lot of work, right? We’re sort of assuming that that work has already been done philosophically through proving God’s existence and reasoning to His existence and His infinite goodness through that philosophical endeavor. So assuming that is the case, now we have reason to pursue Him as our highest good as our ultimate and or destiny. And to give Him the worship that is due to Him as the supreme only honorable being and for Him to require that of us in no way is egotistical or conceited because it is a due esteem to Him. It is not out of order. It is not undue. It is actually ordered. And because we’re rational animals, reasonable beings, to behave in an orderly way is good for us.
Cy Kellett:
Amen brother. Thanks, Karlo.
Karlo Broussard:
Thank you, Cy.
Cy Kellett:
Maybe one of the problems people have with being required to worship God is they think they’re going to have to learn the Hillsong catalog or get an Amy Grant record. And that is not what we mean by worship. What we mean by worship is the fundamental orientation Of the self to the highest good so that we are fundamentally oriented to God, the highest good, in a way that is utterly open and ready to receive all the good that God is and ready to appreciate and love all of that good.
So maybe that’ll help a little bit. Karlo’s always very helpful. Maybe you’re not quite satisfied though? Maybe you still think this God of ours is an egomaniac. If you think there’s some aspect of this we haven’t covered or that we need to be more upfront about covering or braver about covering, you’re welcome to send your ideas, your thoughts for future episodes, to focus@catholic.com. We love getting your emails to focus@catholic.com. Also, if you’re watching on YouTube, like and subscribe. We’re growing on YouTube and when you like and subscribe that helps us to grow. You can always support us financially by going to givecatholic.com. We do need your financial support to continue to do what we’re doing. When you go to givecatholic.com, just say it’s for Catholic Answers Focus, and that will help us a lot. I’m Cy Kellett your host. Thanks for joining us. We’ll see you next time, God willing, right here on Catholic Answers Focus.