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How can the Catholic Church teach that baptism is necessary for salvation when the Bible shows people receiving the Holy Spirit before baptism and Paul tells us that Christ did not send him to baptize but to preach the gospel? The author of Meeting the Protestant Challenge, Karlo Broussard, explains.
Cy Kellet:
Is baptism necessary for our salvation? Karlo Broussard is next.
Hello and welcome to Focus, the Catholic Answers podcast for living, understanding, and defending your Catholic faith. I’m Cy Kellett, your host. And I have to admit, as a cradle Catholic, as a Catholic from before I was born, I’m pretty sure I was Catholic in the womb, it never would’ve occurred to me to ask the question, is baptism necessary for salvation? So this is one of those reasons, one those opportunities where someone presents a challenge to the faith that you wouldn’t have even thought of, and it deepens your understanding of that certain aspect of your faith.
This is one of the challenges that’s made against Catholicism and Catholic belief, and Catholic practice by our Baptist and other Protestant fellow Christians. The challenge being, well, there’re some things in the Bible that would suggest baptism is not necessary for salvation. So we asked Karlo Broussard about that and here’s what he had to say.
Okay, so I guess the main objection is that people seem to be saved who are not baptized.
Karlo Broussard:
Right. Yep. No, that’s well put.
Cy Kellet:
I guess that’s the [inaudible 00:01:19], I don’t know any clearer way to put it. But we do say, be baptized to be saved. So this seems like a contradiction, help me out with it.
Karlo Broussard:
Yeah, so the church does teach that baptism is necessary for salvation. And as we go through our conversation here, we’ll qualify what the church means by necessary. We don’t mean an absolute necessity such that one who is not baptized is automatically going to hell. What the church means by it’s necessary for salvation as it points out in paragraph 1257, is that it is necessary for salvation for those to whom the gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for the sacrament. For those to whom it has not been proclaimed, right? The catechism goes on and makes this statement, “God has bound salvation to the sacrament of baptism, but he himself is not bound by the sacraments.”
In other words, God can administer the effects of the sacrament of baptism to those to whom the gospel has not been proclaimed. And they’re not responsible for their ignorance of this revelation. So for those to whom it has been proclaimed and they have the possibility to ask for it, it is necessary because we claim it is a part of Christian revelation. And so in that sense, it’s necessary. But to get specifically to the challenge that’s offered to us that you’ve posed, which is a challenge by the way that I meet in my book, Meeting the Protestant Challenge, it’s-
Cy Kellet:
Oh yeah, this is one of the topics that [crosstalk 00:02:54]-
Karlo Broussard:
That is correct. And that is what the Bible seems to reveal some people getting saved without baptism. So the key example, sort of the go-to text here is Acts 10:45-48. And that’s where we read that story of how Cornelius and the Gentiles receive a special outpouring of the Holy Spirit. And they began speaking in tongues in very similar… And performing actions, right? Visible activities very similar to the apostles on the day of Pentecost, particularly speaking in tongues. And it’s subsequent to that that Peter baptizes Cornelius and his Gentile friends.
Cy Kellet:
Oh, so how can you have the spirit and not be saved?
Karlo Broussard:
That is correct.
Cy Kellet:
Okay. Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
So there’s a few ways that we can meet this challenge, Cy. So first of all, notice the challenge assumes right off the bat because Cornelius and his Gentile friends received the Holy Spirit, therefore they’re saved. But one possible way to meet this challenge for apologetical purposes is to challenge that assumption and say, well, wait a minute, just because somebody receives an outpouring of the spirit, that doesn’t necessarily mean they are saved because we have evidence in scripture where the spirit is given for other purposes besides salvation. So as I articulate in my book, you could use the example in Exodus 31:3 where the spirit of God is given to Bezalel, I might be butchering the pronunciation there, but Bezalel, son of Uri.
Cy Kellet:
Everybody [crosstalk 00:04:32]. That was a big problem with Bezalel. Everyone was like, excuse, come on, people get this right.
Karlo Broussard:
Yeah. So the spirit of God is given to Bezalel, son of Uri, why? To devise artistic designs to work in gold, silver, and bronze, and cutting stones for setting and in carving wood for working every craft, verses four through five there. So notice, the spirit is given for artistic skill here, not salvation. You also see in the Old Testament, the spirit of God is given for special strength. That’s exemplified in the life of Samson in Judges 14:6. The spirit is also given to empower one with a special strength for leadership as we see Joshua. The spirit of God is in Joshua, empowering him to lead the people of God according to Numbers 27:18.
And so the spirit of God can be given for other purposes besides salvation. Now, when we come back to the story of Cornelius and his Gentile friends, we can see that it’s reasonable to conclude that the spirit of God would be given for some specific purpose and not necessarily salvation. And that is to convince the circumcised, those Jewish Christians who were teaching that one must be a Jew first, hold fast all the mosaic precepts in order to be a true Christian.
Cy Kellet:
I see. Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
And so it’s reasonable say that the spirit would be given here to have this visible manifestation to convince the circumcised, these Jewish Christians, that the Gentiles do not have to be a Jew first in order to be saved, right? Or in order to be a Christian. And we see this within the context, the context of the passage seems to suggest this because we’re told that when the Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius and the other Gentiles present there, the quote, “Believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed because the gift of the spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.” Verse 45.
So it’s given simply to convince the circumcised, these Jewish Christians, that one did not have to hold fast to the Old Testament precepts in order to be a Christian. Okay?
Cy Kellet:
Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
And then the key here is they knew this, the reason why they knew that the spirit of God was given was that they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. So you could ask the question, well, why would the speaking in tongues be necessary in order to convince that they have the spirit of God, right? Why this visible manifestation? Well, the visible manifestation is ordered to convincing the circumcised that the Gentiles do not have to hold fast to the mosaic precepts in order to be a member of God’s family, to be a member of the fold here, of the Christian fold.
And so the spirit of God could be given for some distinct purpose other than salvation. That’s one possible way that you could meet this challenge apologetically and defuse the force of the challenge.
Cy Kellet:
So let me give you another challenge then, because this one is specifically connected with St. Paul. And so I guess the challenge would go like this. How could the Catholic church teach baptism is necessary for salvation if Paul tells us, and this is from the first letter of the Corinthians 1:17, that Christ did not send him to baptize, but to preach the gospel.
Karlo Broussard:
Yes, that’s a very good challenge. And I also meet that one in my book as well in Meeting the Protestant Challenge. But just real quick, before we go to that, let me just say concerning the Cornelius passage, notice how I said that was only one way to meet that challenge. But we could as Catholics concede that Cornelius and his friends are being saved prior to receiving baptism. So if we can see that they are being saved prior to receiving baptism, that doesn’t pose a threat to the Catholic position. Because as we already said at the outset of our conversation here, Cy, the church acknowledges that God is not bound by his sacraments. We can affirm-
Cy Kellet:
Right. Oh, I see.
Karlo Broussard:
… baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom it is revealed and those who have the possibility to ask for it. But we can also affirm that God is not bound by his sacraments and he could administer the graces of the sacrament in other ways outside the boundaries of the sacrament itself. And given the circumstances that we’ve already articulated here, like, hey, these Jewish Christians need to be convinced in a public way that the Gentiles can now be saved and enter into the fold. So God’s going to give his spirit and save them and give them the effects of baptism in this extraordinary circumstance.
Because think about it, Peter knew that the Gentiles could enter into the fold, but he received that revelation privately.
Cy Kellet:
Oh, I see. Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
Cornelius knew, but he only received it privately, both in Acts chapter 10. And so now there’s a need for a public revelation that the Gentiles do not have to be a Jew first in order to be a Christian and be saved. And so you have the visible manifestation of the spirit. And so even if we concede, which in the theological tradition and the common way of interpreting this passage, it is the case that the church acknowledges, Christians have acknowledged that Cornelius and the Gentiles are being saved here prior to receiving baptism, that doesn’t pose a threat to the Catholic position because the Catholic position allows for these sorts of extraordinary circumstances where God can administer the graces of the sacrament even without baptism. We call this either explicit or implicit desire for baptism.
Cy Kellet:
I see.
Karlo Broussard:
So that’s the sort of finish up that challenge with Cornelius in Acts chapter 10.
Cy Kellet:
Got you. Okay. Thank you. That’s an important clarification.
Karlo Broussard:
Yeah. I didn’t want to leave it hanging there.
Cy Kellet:
Paul didn’t get sent to baptize, and he’s an apostle.
Karlo Broussard:
That’s right. Yeah. And notice too, our Protestant friends who appeal to this passage will emphasize what Paul says. “I did not come to baptize, but to preach the gospel.” So it’s not only that he was not sent to baptize, but also our Protestant friends will argue Paul seems to be disassociating baptism from the gospel. In other words, the gospel… Let me reverse this. Baptism is not essential to the gospel.
Cy Kellet:
Oh, I see.
Karlo Broussard:
Because Paul seems to be juxtaposing the two, right?
Cy Kellet:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
Coming to baptize, no, no, not that. I’ve come to preach the gospel. In other words, the gospel doesn’t contain the necessity of baptism. So that’s the challenge. So how do we respond? Well, notice this, the first way we can meet this challenge, Cy, is to notice how the challenge seems to confuse the duty to administer the right of baptism with baptism being essential to the gospel. So let’s say for argument’s sake, I concede that Paul was not sent to baptize. All that tells me is that Paul was not sent to administer the rite of baptism. Well, it can be that Paul was not sent to administer the rite of baptism and baptism still be essential to the gospel message.
Cy Kellet:
Sure. Yeah. So we just mean he had a vocation to do one thing and not the other.
Karlo Broussard:
That’s right. And somebody else was required to administer the rite of baptism. Right?
Cy Kellet:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
So just because he says, “I have not been sent to baptize,” it doesn’t follow from that that baptism is not essential to the gospel. Because you can still have baptism be essential to the gospel and Paul just not be the one to administer the rite of baptism.
Cy Kellet:
Sure.
Karlo Broussard:
Right? So that’s the first way we can meet that challenge and diffuse the force of the challenge. Now, secondly, as I point out in my book, I would suggest that Paul is using hyperbole here. And he’s using hyperbole like when he says, “I have not been sent to administer baptism,” he’s using hyperbole to emphasize two things as I suggest in my book. It doesn’t matter by whom you’re baptized. And secondly, his apostolic role is not restricted to administering baptism, but also involves the preaching of the gospel. And that’s what’s most important. So that he’s using hyperbole. I would argue we know that because Jesus tells the apostles in Matthew 28:20, “Go out and baptize and make disciples.”
And Paul is a legitimate apostle, the resurrected Lord appealed to him. So is Paul not subject to that commission to go and baptize? Right? So obviously he wouldn’t be saying, “No, I can’t go and baptize,” because Jesus told him to go and baptize. Being a part of the apostolic 12. Being a part of the apostolic college. And then Paul acknowledges that he actually baptized Crispus, Gaius in the household of Stephanas in First Corinthians 1:14. So is he like disobeying Christ’s command to not baptize?
Cy Kellet:
Right. It’s clear he didn’t get the command, “Don’t baptize.”
Karlo Broussard:
Right? Because he actually baptized, and I don’t think we want to say he’s disobeying Jesus’ command. Right?
Cy Kellet:
No. Right.
Karlo Broussard:
So that would be evidence that he’s using hyperbole, but what’s the meaning of the hyperbolic speech? And I would suggest it doesn’t matter by whom you’re baptized. That’s the message that Paul is trying to get across with using this hyperbole here. You see, when you look in the context, Paul’s concern is factionous activity among the Christians in the church in Corinth. In verse 10, he says, “I appeal to you brethren by the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ that all of you agree that there be no dissension among you.” Well, that implies there is dissension, right?
Cy Kellet:
Yes.
Karlo Broussard:
What’s that dissension? He tells us in verses 11 through 12, “It’s been reported to me that there’s quarreling among you. And some are saying, “I belong to Paul.” “I belong to Apollos.” “I belong to Cephas.”” Now, why were they saying that? Why were they associating-
Cy Kellet:
Now that’s a misunderstanding of baptism, isn’t it?
Karlo Broussard:
That’s right. Why were they associating themselves with all these different guys? Well, check it out in verses 13 through 14. “Were you baptized in the name of Paul? I am thankful that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, let alone anyone should say that you were baptized in my name.” That’s a clue to why they were having this factionous activity. They were associating themselves with the minister-
Cy Kellet:
Who baptized-
Karlo Broussard:
… by whom they were baptized. And so Paul is saying, knock it off guys, in response to this, he says, “For…” In his response to all this factionous activity, “You’re associating yourself with Apollos and Cephas because they baptized you, for Christ did not send me to baptize.” In other words, what’s important is not whether I baptized you is Paul’s message here. What’s important is the gospel of the cross of Jesus Christ and the merits which were applied in baptism, right? That’s what’s important. It’s not whether I baptized you or Apollos, or Cephas, your Christian identity is not determined by the minister who baptized you.
That is what Paul is getting at here. And he’s using hyperbole to connote or convey that message. So First Corinthians 1:17 in no way poses a threat to the Catholic understanding of the necessity of baptism, that necessity being applied to those to whom it is revealed and those who have the possibility to ask for it.
Cy Kellet:
So sometimes people will say then, “Well, the Catholic church has changed its teaching to say that people can be saved now who aren’t baptized.” We used to say the only way was absolutely baptism, but that’s not really true. There’s always [crosstalk 00:16:14]-
Karlo Broussard:
No. No. Thomas Aquinas has several places in the corpus of his writings where he articulates an explicit and implicit desire for baptism. And Aquinas would argue that God will see to it, because he’s operating on the idea that explicit faith is necessary for salvation, to explicitly believe in divine revelation, right? That God exists. And also to the implicit and then implicitly that Christ is the fullness of the revelation. But Aquinas argues that in extraordinary circumstances, God will see to it that a person either has a preacher come to them preaching to them that God exists, or the individual is going to have some sort of intuitive knowledge that God exists and then have to assent or reject. Right?
Now, all the church says is that God in ways known only to him will save those who by no fault of their own or ignorant of the gospel, and pursuing the truth, and living in accord with that truth, responding to the actual grace is given to them. And so in the tradition, we find that it is true that whatever grace a person is saved by outside the visible boundaries of the church, is saved by the graces that come from Jesus, the head and his body, the church. And so this is why we can say no salvation outside of the church. Just like we can say no one is saved apart from Jesus Christ, we can say no one is saved apart from the Catholic church.
Whether that’s going to be done in a visible way or in an invisible way is according to God’s providential plan, but that it can be a salvation by way of the grace is flowing from the church in an invisible way even though separated visibly, that’s a possibility.
Cy Kellet:
But if somebody says to me as a Christian, “I’ve heard about this Jesus stuff. How am I saved?” The thing I should say to them is, believe the gospel and be baptized.
Karlo Broussard:
That is correct. And that’s what Jesus came and said, “Repent and believe.” Right? And in Mark 16, “He who believes and is baptized shall be saved.” That’s what Jesus said. And we see in Paul’s ministry, when he proclaimed Jesus, they believe. And what do they do after that belief? He goes and baptizes them. So it’s the belief in Christ that involves getting baptized. Because Jesus, a part of that initial proclamation of the message of Jesus Christ involves the new birth by water and spirit. That’s part of the proclamation. So when somebody responds in faith and in this stage of preparation for justification, we would call it an imperfect faith in ordinary circumstances or somebody actually, it’s a supernatural gift as St. Thomas Aquinas articulates, but it’s not animated by charity yet.
So it’s not a justifying faith, it’s an imperfect faith. But nevertheless, supernatural, where one response to that initial proclamation and says, “Yes, I believe.” And then with that initial proclamation involved, the new birth by water and spirit, so one will respond and say, “Yes, I want to be born again by water and spirit,” namely baptism. And the Catholic church teaches that it’s in that baptismal right in the application of baptism is where one will receive justifying faith, where one is initially justified with charity.
Cy Kellet:
What a great gift?
Karlo Broussard:
[crosstalk 00:00:19:39].
Cy Kellet:
[crosstalk 00:19:40] everything given to you in this tiny little ceremony, but still everything is of infinite value. All right. Thanks, Karlo.
Karlo Broussard:
Hey, thank you, Cy. God bless.
Cy Kellet:
First time St. Peter goes out and preaches after Pentecost, he gives all that great preaching. And then the Jewish people assembled around the temple area, “What are we to do, my brothers? What are we to do about this news that we’ve heard?” “Repent and be baptized.” That’s what Peter tells them. For salvation, baptism is necessary. So thanks to Karlo Broussard for helping us walk through that. I think we’re going to have to have Karlo come in and do every single sacrament with us at some point. I know that we’ve got him coming up on a very soon future date. He’s going to talk about the Eucharist with us, but baptism opens the door.
Baptism is the door we walk through as a matter of fact, to be saved. And everyone, every single person is called to repent and be baptized. And that’s our job is to share that because if we don’t believe that, we don’t really have a mission. But we do have a mission. Our mission is to go out to all the nations and call people to repentance and baptism for the forgiveness of sins. Hey, we love it when you send us an email. Please do that. You can send it to focus@catholic.com. focus@catholic.com. Any ideas you’ve got, they’re welcome. Also like and subscribe if you’re watching on YouTube, that helps to grow this podcast.
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