YouTuber Adrian Lawson joins Cy Kellett to share the story of how he left Protestantism and became Catholic. What drew him in? The beauty of the Eucharist—and the powerful witness of Catholic content online. Adrian reflects on his journey through different Protestant communities, the questions that stirred his heart, and how Catholic media helped him discover the fullness of the faith.
Transcript:
Cy: Our guest this hour is Adrian Lawson. And I asked him how to introduce. I said, are you a podcaster? Are you. I’m just. I just don’t know the words. And he said theologian and philosopher. So he’s very humble. Here is our theologian and philosopher YouTuber. He does a wonderful bit of work on YouTube, helping people understand the Catholic faith and also defending the Catholic faith. It’s called Sips with Serra. I want to get to know Adrian a little bit, and I’d like to let listeners get to know him a little bit.
But one of the things that is among the many interesting things about him, including the many names people call him, is that it’s the Eucharist that was his catalyst to come into the Catholic faith. So can we do a little faith journey with you? For me, I’ll pretend like I’m doing the journey home with you or something like that. You should be on the. They should get you on the journey home. It’s such a good show. You know, it’s my favorite TV show.
I love that show. I absolutely love it. I think it’s, like, almost perfect.
Adrian: I’ve seen a little bit of it. It’s really good.
Cy: Because both of them, they do great interviews and it’s stories. And what would you want? You want to watch stories? That’s what you want on TV. And they’re really good stories.
All right, so you started out in the womb. What religion were you?
Adrian: I was brought up very young in Protestantism, non-denominationalism, very Pentecostal leaning.
Cy: Okay. Where do you go to church when you’re a non-denominational, very Pentecostal leaning? Is it one church your whole life, or do you go from church to church? How does that work?
Adrian: Let’s see. So I kind of have a little bit of a tumultuous childhood, I guess, but I kind of bounced around from different households, and each household kind of had its own church. So more recently, in my Protestant journey, I was going to a Calvary Chapel. So, like, evangelical.
Cy: Oh, I know Calvary Chapel very well. Yeah, Pastor Chuck, I used to listen to him on the radio.
Adrian: I was at the Church of Saul.
Cy: Oh, you were? Yeah, yeah. I enjoyed Pastor Chuck. And then one day he got a question. You know, he used to do a question and answer show on the radio. I think I’ve told this story before, but the question was, who’s the whore of Babylon? Guess what Pastor Chuck said.
Adrian: I think I have a guess. Go ahead.
Cy: I want you to actually guess.
Adrian: Yes, it was the Catholic Church.
Cy: How did you know? Which is not possible. That isn’t. Well, anyways, I guess it was in Pastor Chuck’s mind, possible, but. So that deepened my sense that as much. I always liked evangelical Christian radio, sometimes it was wild, sometimes it was crazy. But there were people that were sincerely trying to share the person of Jesus Christ. But then when I would hear things like that, I’d be like, that’s why we need Catholic radio, because you can’t just. That stuff sits out there.
How long ago would I have. Would it have been that I found you in a Calvary Chapel church?
Adrian: Ooh, probably about four and a half to five years ago.
Cy: Okay. Did you ever bring coffee into the service?
Adrian: Oh, yeah.
Cy: You did?
Adrian: Every day or every Sunday that I was there, I had coffee.
Cy: Have you ever been to a religious service where there was a drummer?
Adrian: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Cy: You get what I’m getting at Calvary? I mean, there is this kind of reputation that these are coffee houses and entertainment venues. Is that. Is that merely my Catholic prejudice or is there something to that?
Adrian: I mean, I want to be charitable. I learned a lot.
Cy: Why, Adrian? Why? No, I’m just kidding. Please do be charitable.
Adrian: Yeah, no, I mean, there’s. There’s a lot of great sermons that I heard that, you know, expounded on the scriptures and taught me things that I would have. Wouldn’t have known otherwise. And they get very deep. I mean, in a 40-minute sermon, you can cover a lot of like, oh, in the original Greek, this is what it said and this is what that meant, and here’s some history and things like that. So there were some good lessons that I heard at that church specifically, but I’ve been to some where it is very much just a motivational speech and not a lot of practical information that I can benefit from in my day-to-day life, but just some feel-good stuff, typically, and some happy music and some coffee is always nice, and.
Cy: Coffee and music and all these things are good. But you what, felt a call to, what led you to go, I’m going to take a different direction in my spiritual life.
Adrian: Yeah. So I had, for a long time felt that while I was, you know, happy with what was going on on Sundays at my Calvary Chapel, I wasn’t feeling a guidance in what to do in my day-to-day life. Like, there wasn’t a daily prayer structure or anything. You know, you could buy this devotional or that devotional or the pastor’s devotional or whatever, but there wasn’t something that the entire church was doing that. I think that’s what drew me to the Catholic Church initially was it’s beautiful. There’s a liturgy of the hours that you can pray. Everybody prays the rosary. Not everybody, but most Catholics that I know pray the rosary.
Cy: Good ones do. Right.
Adrian: Most Catholics that I know pray the rosary every day. So there’s some kind of unity in day-to-day practice, not just in meeting on Sundays, which is really beautiful to me. And then it really came to a head when I was looking into. I was getting ready to get baptized at my Calvary Chapel church and I was looking into, what does that mean?
Cy: Wait a second, were you getting re-baptized or this was your actual first baptism?
Adrian: First baptism.
Cy: Okay. So then you started to think about what does baptism mean?
Adrian: Yeah, I was like, why am I doing this? I was excited about it and. Okay, but what does this mean for me? Like, what decision am I making by doing this? And I. That was when I first learned that there were different positions on this because I had only been raised knowing the Protestant position, and not just the Protestant, but, you know, because even Protestants will disagree on baptism, but the like modern Protestant, non-denominational, evangelical positions on baptism. And through that I learned that the early church believed different things than I did on baptism. And that really threw me for a loop. And then that also led me to looking into the Eucharist. And it was just a domino effect after that.
Cy: And so you start to be drawn towards a sacramental kind of, well, the religion that Jesus founded, a sacramental religion. And so you begin to intuit that that’s in the Catholic Church. So you became a Lutheran.
Adrian: Exactly.
Cy: Is that what happened?
Adrian: Well, make it make sense for me. Why did that happen? You said, I need more, I need sacraments, I need the Catholic Church is probably it, but I’ll become a Lutheran.
Cy: Yeah. So I’ll try to make that make sense. So what happened was my buddy and I had read about the church history a bit and he was actually in training to become a pastor at that church. I won’t say his name, but he’s a great guy. And we were all excited, like, oh, I think actually Catholicism is true. And I think both of us maybe didn’t know that there was such an anti-Catholic position that many Protestants held. So I was just so ignorant of church history that I didn’t even know what the Protestant Reformation was or any of that.
Adrian: So I told my grandparents, who are wonderful people and who, without whom I would not have become a Christian at all. And also my dad. But. So no disrespect to them, but I called them and talked to them about, hey, I’m going to become a Catholic. And I thought it’d be exciting. I thought they would see this as like, you’re graduating to becoming like a really traditional Christian or something. My own. My own ignorance record scratch.That is not what happened.
Cy: They hadn’t forgotten the Reformation.
Adrian: They had not.
Cy: Okay.
Adrian: And so this was. That’s fascinating to me because I do think with many young people today, the categories are not as clear as they are for the parents and the grandparents. And there’s a sense of, like, I remember not too. A few years ago talking with a young woman who. Very young, she was a teenager and about being a Christian. And I said something about her being a Protestant. She said, I’m not a Protestant. And I said, your church is a Protestant church. She said, no, it’s just a Christian church. And she wasn’t making a point. She was not making a rhetorical point. She was expressing reality as she understood it. And it was completely without any history. It was disconnected from history. It was. There was Jesus, there’s the Bible and there’s my church. Like, what else. What are you talking about? Protestant?
So I do think that that’s maybe there’s a little bit of an advantage in that, like you said, because people may be able to more openly think through where is the church?
Cy: Right. Yeah. For me, it was learning because I hadn’t known that this happened, or at least much about it. I was like, wait, okay, so the early church believed that baptism actually saves you, and they believed that the Eucharist is actually Jesus. And they believed all these other things that my church definitely does not believe any of those things. So somewhere along the lines, my church was the one that kind of changed something arbitrarily and went off the rails a little bit. So that was what led to me. It was my own ignorance and then discovering that that led to me looking into, okay, what church?
Adrian: But how did you find that out? Like, did you look on the Internet? I mean, how does somebody find that stuff out nowadays?
Cy: Was there a Catholic who told you these things? Did you find it in a book? Did you look on the Internet? What was the actual, you know, cause of this insight in your brain?
Adrian: So I have. So I made a video about this and some people have quibbled with me on the title of it, but I have a video called How Gavin Ortland Made Me Catholic now. Okay. We can talk about the title, if that’s appropriate. Whatever.
Cy: Among the people who hates that, it probably Gavin Ortland.
Adrian: Yes. Okay. And I. I get it. But through his book, that’s how I learned that there was a difference in the early church and my church. So his book is called Theological Retrieval for Evangelicals, and he was trying to reconcile the modern evangelical church and the ancient church. I don’t remember all the arguments he made, but apparently it wasn’t very convincing to me because I still felt like my church is definitely not in line with the original church. So I looked at, okay, well, what churches do align with that? Catholicism was number one on the list. That’s why I was telling my family I’m going to become Catholic. But they quickly scared me out of that. So to have a happy middle ground. I love my grandparents. I don’t want to argue with them for the rest of their lives. I don’t know how much time I have left for them. So I was like, how do I, you know, follow. Join a church that is closer to the early church, but also not ruin my relationship with my grandparents and possibly other family? So the Lutheran Church was that happy middle ground, I guess, for a time.
Cy: Lutherans do have a sacramental theology. It’s not the sacramental theology that the Catholic Church has, but Lutherans believe in sacraments. They offer sacraments. So why didn’t you feel satisfied there?
Adrian: Yeah, so I learned a lot while being a Lutheran. I learned a lot. There’s a lot of beauty there that I appreciated. However, I still felt in my time there that there were things that were not the same from the original church to the current Lutheran church. So when I look at the ancient church, there are other issues that, you know, Catholics get a lot of flack for, like confession and the Lutheran Church today, at least in the branch that I was in, I was in the LCMS, which is a very conservative branch of Lutheranism.
Cy: Missouri Synod.
Adrian: Missouri Synod, yes.
Cy: I was testing myself to see if I could figure it out.
Adrian: Yeah, they believe in confession, and you can have private confession with the pastor, but they don’t believe that that is necessary. They believe that the same thing happens when you make your confession in the beginning of the liturgy.
Cy: The general confession.
Adrian: The general confession, that. That covers everything and you’re good. So that didn’t sit right with me because that doesn’t seem to be what the early church.
Cy: Confess your sins to one another.
Adrian: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, confession to a priest, it didn’t seem that this was supposed to be just something you do in the congregation. You make some general prayer, and that covers all of your venial and mortal sins. And I don’t even think they had a. I could be wrong about this, so don’t quote me. But I don’t. I don’t remember hearing about venial and mortal sins within Lutheranism at all.
Cy: Okay.
Adrian: So there were just a couple of things where I was like, okay, I feel like I’m closer, but I don’t feel like this is the fullness yet. And then there were beautiful Catholic practices like the rosary, where I just thought, that’s a beautiful thing to do. Why don’t we have anything beautiful like that? And then I found things like the Lutheran rosary, which was kind of like, you know, same structure but with different prayers, none of them directed to Mary. And so it was just like we were trying to copy some things because we recognized the beauty. However, it just didn’t feel like I was in the fullness of the truth yet.
And then one of the last straws for me were the Marian dogmas. Famously, I said when I came on before that, I was reading Tim Staples’ book Behold Your Mother, which was very good. And I just wasn’t finding any clear teachings on Mary within Lutheranism one way or another. It was kind of like up to you, but most people reject a lot of Marian dogmas, but Martin Luther himself accepted at least three of the four Marian dogmas that Catholics today accept. So I still didn’t. I just felt like there were some missing pieces to me that I just couldn’t make sense out of.
And then the final one was the fact that the canon that Lutherans have and that all Protestants today have was not in line with what the early church had. Changing scripture, it just really made me uncomfortable. So those were kind of like all of the things that were going through my head towards the end of my time as a Lutheran.
Cy: Were there any, like, I don’t know, podcasters? Like, I mean, I know a lot of people come to the Catholic Church because they see someone like Matt Fradd who does all these wonders, or they watch The Journey Home, you know, or they. Was there something like that that was effective for you? I mean, Tim’s book clearly was a catalyst, but I’m just wondering if in the whole Catholic media sphere, we have. Was there anybody that stood out?
Adrian: Yes. Matt Fradd, you mentioned. He kept Catholicism on my radar because he. If you watch his show, he has a very beautiful spirituality, a very beautiful humility, and it was inspiring to me. And I was like, okay, well, here’s a Catholic who seems to be doing something right because I see his humility and I, you know, I want that too. Lila Rose is another great one who’s been very effective in the pro-life movement. Just the fruits of these people, not necessarily they weren’t making arguments for Catholicism, but seeing their fruits come out in all these different areas was really inspiring to me. And it made me think that there might be something to this Catholic Church, that they have all these great people on the forefront of some of these major social issues.
And then Catholic Answers was great as well. Not just saying that because I’m here, but in some of my questions about the papacy or obviously Tim Staples about Mary. And just some of these questions that I was still wrestling with. Catholic Answers was very helpful in sorting all that out.
Cy: And now you’re helping other people, or at least that is all the signs would suggest that. Yeah, that you’re trying. You want to do that. What was done for you, what you received for free, you want to share with others for free, as Jesus said. I’m paraphrasing Jesus because I’m not a Protestant. I can’t remember the exact words.
So tell me about how you came into the Catholic Church then. So there’s this. And I honestly, I sometimes worry about this, so maybe you could help me with this. There’s this online Catholicism that people get exposed to, and it has a certain tenor, it has a certain vocabulary, it has a. And certainly all the people that you mentioned would be part of that. And then there’s what happens in the parish, and that has a different tenor and a different vocabulary. And so when you finally approach the parish to say, I want to become a Catholic, I want to know what was your experience like there?
Adrian: Well, it was. They were very helpful. I came to the parish and I had an appointment set up because I had been thinking about this for a long time. So I’d been emailing back and forth with the parish for a little while. When I showed up, it was very casual. It was very, you know, I had this image going into it that it was going to be this high-pressure situation because the Catholic Church, it could seem so intimidating, like they were going.
Cy: To give you some kind of test or something.
Adrian: Yeah, yeah, right. But I came in and then it was. I went in.
Cy: Did you have to pass through a metal detector? And then one of those things where you put your hands up, like at the airport?
No, you did not.
Adrian: I know. All right, so first of all, the first impression then is, it’s not as uptight as I thought it was going to be.
Cy: Okay, so then tell me more.
Adrian: I mean, the process was actually quite simple. That’s why whenever somebody comes to my channel and I’m doing a live stream or they comment or something, and they’re like, how do I become a Catholic? You literally just go to your local parish and tell them that you want to become a Catholic. It’s actually not that intimidating. So signed up, gave them my information. They wanted, you know, my baptismal certificate to make sure that I was validly baptized prior. Otherwise they would have to baptize me. Or conditional baptism. Any information on, like, do you have previous marriages, things like this, anything that might hinder the confirmation process.
And once all of that basic information was communicated, I was able to just start attending OCIA classes. And about a year, year and a half later, I was getting confirmed.
Cy: And you had. I can’t remember. Did you receive baptism before?
Adrian: I had been baptized before at Calvary Chapel.
Cy: Was there any problem with the Catholic Church accepting that baptism?
Adrian: No. Once I gave them my certificate, it says Adrian Lawson was baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That’s it?
Cy: Yep. And God bless the Calvary Chapel for that. For your salvation. Even if they didn’t think it was your salvation, it is, in fact, your salvation. But.
So you received then on Easter vigil or another day, Easter Sunday. Easter Sunday. Really?
Adrian: Of 2024.
Cy: And why Easter Sunday? Just because usually they do it at night on the Easter vigil. Do you know?
Adrian: I’m not sure. At my parish at least, we do the baptisms on Easter vigil. Oh, so baptism, if you’re getting baptized, they do baptism, confirmation, first Eucharist on Easter vigil. If you’re getting confirmed, you have a valid baptism before then you just do that on Sunday. I think maybe.
Cy: Oh, maybe. They have a lot of people.
Adrian: They do have a lot of people.
Cy: Oh, yeah. Do you want to say the parish or.
Adrian: No, I’d rather not.
Cy: You’ve fallen out with them. I’m sorry.
Adrian: No, they’re great. I am so happy with my parish. I love it. But just to avoid.
Cy: That’s a good problem to have, though, that you have so many people and certainly the church doesn’t. There is no time where you have to get accepted into the church. You can do any day of the year. Well, that may not be true. I don’t think Good Friday, you could be accepted into the church. There may be a few others, but for the most part, you know, any day is fine, but we tend towards the vigil.
Adrian: Yeah.
Cy: So what was that like for you?
Adrian: It was beautiful and very powerful. Receiving the Eucharist for the first time. I was like, wow. Because I had received what I thought was the Eucharist previously at, you know, the communion wafer and the grape juice at my non-denominational or evangelical churches. And then what I thought was the Eucharist in the Lutheran Church. But coming into the Catholic Church, I was like, this is the real deal. Apostolic succession and all that. So it was exciting, very exciting time. I wasn’t familiar with the confirmation part of things, so that was kind of a surprise for me, getting the chrism oil on my forehead. It smelled really good, so that was cool. It was just a really positive experience. Really grateful for it.
And then recently, my wife came into the church.
Cy: Oh, praise God.
Adrian: Yeah. So she actually didn’t have a baptism before, so she got baptized.
Cy: She got the whole deal.
Adrian: Yeah. Baptized, confirmation and Eucharist on Easter vigil. It was so beautiful. Yeah. I was like, man, your baptism was way cooler than mine. At least on the outside. The same things were accomplished.
Cy: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s really not about cool baptism. The baptism is the opposite of cool. It’s the being desperately in need of a Lord and Savior.
Adrian: Very true.
Cy: Yes. All right, well, our guest Adrian Lawson from Sips with Serra. We’ll take some calls on the Eucharist when we come back.